Author Topic: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria  (Read 514 times)

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Online LivenotoneviL

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Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« on: April 15, 2018, 08:14:28 PM »
On YouTube, I've come across a couple of videos where several parishes (it seems like under Alexandria) have permitted eccentric / Charismatic "Liturgical Dance."

Does anybody have any info about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VNptIdyVzo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5UYfew2Yf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsuiMJjhgx4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQNt3ZbL3Dw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1qYQQEwPUU
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:16:32 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2018, 08:25:07 PM »
Dance is very important in Sub-Saharan African cultures, it's a big part of their sense of community and spirituality. You can see it even in the Ethiopian Church.

I don't think this is considered "liturgical dance" in a Western Baby Boomer sense. It's more just something to do during the Offertory while everybody is Communing. The Liturgy itself is celebrated the same way as anywhere else.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:25:58 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2018, 08:34:05 PM »
Dance is very important in Sub-Saharan African cultures, it's a big part of their sense of community and spirituality. You can see it even in the Ethiopian Church.

I don't think this is considered "liturgical dance" in a Western Baby Boomer sense. It's more just something to do during the Offertory while everybody is Communing. The Liturgy itself is celebrated the same way as anywhere else.

Okay... forgive me for my colonial ignorance. I've only portions of a couple of Ethiopian Orthodox liturgies where such dance doesn't occur, but now I see that kind of cultural integration - at least, if it's minimized.

But that inevitably leads to the question of when liturgical dance becomes abusive - when exactly in the West does integrating dance into the Liturgy become offensive to the eyes?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:36:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 08:42:09 PM »
Dance is very important in Sub-Saharan African cultures, it's a big part of their sense of community and spirituality. You can see it even in the Ethiopian Church.

I don't think this is considered "liturgical dance" in a Western Baby Boomer sense. It's more just something to do during the Offertory while everybody is Communing. The Liturgy itself is celebrated the same way as anywhere else.

Okay... forgive me for my colonial ignorance. I've only portions of a couple of Ethiopian Orthodox liturgies where such dance doesn't occur, but now I see that kind of cultural integration.

But that inevitably leads to the question of when liturgical dance becomes abusive - when exactly in the West does integrating dance into the Liturgy become offensive to the eyes?

I think historical context is very important. That kind of Kenyan or Ethiopian dance has been a normal background part of their culture for millennia.

Catholic and Mainline Protestant "Liturgical Dance," on the other hand, is an artificial construct from the 60s based on a forced, painfully intentional combination of The Juggler of Notre Dame and what some hippies imagine the Jewish Temple dancing was like.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 08:48:17 PM »
Okay... forgive me for my colonial ignorance. I've only portions of a couple of Ethiopian Orthodox liturgies where such dance doesn't occur, but now I see that kind of cultural integration - at least, if it's minimized.

But that inevitably leads to the question of when liturgical dance becomes abusive - when exactly in the West does integrating dance into the Liturgy become offensive to the eyes?
Minimized according to whose standards?

Also, it's not a Western jurisdiction; Western sensibilities don't apply.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:49:41 PM by Ainnir »
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 09:20:01 PM »
Okay... forgive me for my colonial ignorance. I've only portions of a couple of Ethiopian Orthodox liturgies where such dance doesn't occur, but now I see that kind of cultural integration - at least, if it's minimized.

But that inevitably leads to the question of when liturgical dance becomes abusive - when exactly in the West does integrating dance into the Liturgy become offensive to the eyes?
Minimized according to whose standards?

Also, it's not a Western jurisdiction; Western sensibilities don't apply.


Saint Justin Martyr:

"For there are excessive banquetings, and subtle flutes which provoke to lustful movements, and useless and luxurious anointings, and crowning with garlands. With such a mass of evils do you banish shame; and ye fill your minds with them, and are carried away by intemperance, and indulge as a common practice in wicked and insane fornication."

Saint Ambrose of Milan:

"And so one must be on one's guard, lest, deceived by any common interpretation of this saying, one should suppose that the movements of wanton dances and the madness of the stage were commended; for these are full of evil in youthful age."

"Is anything so conducive to lust as with unseemly movements thus to expose in nakedness those parts of the body which either nature has hidden or custom has veiled, to sport with the looks, to turn the neck, to loosen the hair? Fitly was the next step an offence against God. For what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"

Saint Augustine:

"This then the Martyrs desire for their enemies, "Let them be confounded and fear." For so long as they are not confounded and fear, they must needs defend their actions: glorious they think themselves, because they hold, because they bind, because they scourge, because they kill, because they dance, because they insult, and because of all these doings they be some time confounded and fear. For if they be confounded, they will also be converted: because converted they cannot be, unless they shall have been confounded and shall have feared."


But I think I'm being charitable in saying "minimized" for a completely different culture; I personally think the ideal - especially with dance in our culture in the West - is that it should be absolutely forbidden from Churches.


Here's one more quote from the Bible

Proverbs 15:1

"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Your post filled with avarice and saltiness is the spirit of Antichrist - even if my initial post of Inquisition is the same as such, or even as an inquirer into Orthodoxy, I need correction.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:30:14 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 09:34:17 PM »
Dude, cool it. Ainnir's a super lady who wouldn't hurt a fly, she doesn't deserve that kind of crap. I saw no "avarice(?) and saltiness (are you conflating gamer slang with Biblical language  ???)" in her post. She was just responding to your point matter-of-factly.

Your Patristic quotes have nothing to do with the dancing in this context. You seem to recognize this yourself, so I don't know why you even posted them in the first place.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 09:41:50 PM »
Okay... forgive me for my colonial ignorance. I've only portions of a couple of Ethiopian Orthodox liturgies where such dance doesn't occur, but now I see that kind of cultural integration - at least, if it's minimized.

But that inevitably leads to the question of when liturgical dance becomes abusive - when exactly in the West does integrating dance into the Liturgy become offensive to the eyes?
Minimized according to whose standards?

Also, it's not a Western jurisdiction; Western sensibilities don't apply.


Saint Justin Martyr:

"For there are excessive banquetings, and subtle flutes which provoke to lustful movements, and useless and luxurious anointings, and crowning with garlands. With such a mass of evils do you banish shame; and ye fill your minds with them, and are carried away by intemperance, and indulge as a common practice in wicked and insane fornication."

Saint Ambrose of Milan:

"And so one must be on one's guard, lest, deceived by any common interpretation of this saying, one should suppose that the movements of wanton dances and the madness of the stage were commended; for these are full of evil in youthful age."

"Is anything so conducive to lust as with unseemly movements thus to expose in nakedness those parts of the body which either nature has hidden or custom has veiled, to sport with the looks, to turn the neck, to loosen the hair? Fitly was the next step an offence against God. For what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"

Saint Augustine:

"This then the Martyrs desire for their enemies, "Let them be confounded and fear." For so long as they are not confounded and fear, they must needs defend their actions: glorious they think themselves, because they hold, because they bind, because they scourge, because they kill, because they dance, because they insult, and because of all these doings they be some time confounded and fear. For if they be confounded, they will also be converted: because converted they cannot be, unless they shall have been confounded and shall have feared."


But I think I'm being charitable in saying "minimized" for a completely different culture; I personally think the ideal - especially with dance in our culture in the West - is that it should be absolutely forbidden from Churches.


Here's one more quote from the Bible

Proverbs 15:1

"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Your post filled with avarice and saltiness is the spirit of Antichrist - even if my initial post of Inquisition is the same as such, or even as an inquirer into Orthodoxy, I need correction.
You suffer from scrupulosity.  Get yourself a spiritual director.
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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 09:47:13 PM »
Dude, cool it. Ainnir's a super lady who wouldn't hurt a fly, she doesn't deserve that kind of crap. I saw no "avarice(?) and saltiness (are you conflating gamer slang with Biblical language  ???)" in her post. She was just responding to your point matter-of-factly.

Your Patristic quotes have nothing to do with the dancing in this context. You seem to recognize this yourself, so I don't know why you even posted them in the first place.

Saying that I'm backing up my argument by mere means of "sensibilities" are fighting words to me, particularly when I was just asking a question and wondering if the following practice was a form of liturgical abuse or not. After getting a proper response, I said "OK," to which I was attacked.

I get riled up really easily, so I apologize for that.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:49:09 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 09:48:45 PM »
It's perhaps comparable to how there used to be clapping during sermons in Church. If I saw clapping for a sermon, or dancing, in the middle of an Orthodox service in 2018 Pick-a-place Pennsylvania I'd be both confused and scandalized. But that doesn't mean it happening in another time or place should get the same exact reaction. Same with other things that have happened during the history of the church, like hiring people to be bodyguards during services, elevating someone from catechumen to bishop in a weekend, or taking the eucharist home with you. These things might or might not be ok in other times and places, but the point is we can't just assume such practices are wrong just because they violate our sense of propriety based on how we do things.

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 09:50:26 PM »
Okay, I firmly condemn my comments on this thread, and I apologize to you Ainnir. I hope you can forgive a lawless individual like myself, who suffers from a lot of anxiety and can get overly sensitive and make the world seem like they are out to kill me. However, I make no excuse for myself by trying to make excuses - so I beg that you forgive me.

Please forgive me, as a wretched sinner.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:52:35 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 09:51:04 PM »
Dude, cool it. Ainnir's a super lady who wouldn't hurt a fly, she doesn't deserve that kind of crap. I saw no "avarice(?) and saltiness (are you conflating gamer slang with Biblical language  ???)" in her post. She was just responding to your point matter-of-factly.

Your Patristic quotes have nothing to do with the dancing in this context. You seem to recognize this yourself, so I don't know why you even posted them in the first place.

Saying that I'm backing up my argument by mere means of "sensibilities" are fighting words to me, particularly when I was just asking a question and wondering if the following practice was a form of liturgical abuse or not. After getting a proper response, I said "OK," to which I was attacked.

I get riled up really easily, so I apologize for that.

You need to worry less about possible liturgical abuse and more about actual people abuse.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 10:50:14 PM »
Thanks, guys.   :)  I'll try to live up to the praise, Volnutt.  :D

Okay, I firmly condemn my comments on this thread, and I apologize to you Ainnir. I hope you can forgive a lawless individual like myself, who suffers from a lot of anxiety and can get overly sensitive and make the world seem like they are out to kill me. However, I make no excuse for myself by trying to make excuses - so I beg that you forgive me.

Please forgive me, as a wretched sinner.
Of course.  :)  I really didn't intend to stir up anxiety, so please forgive me that.
It's completely fine to not know what to do with something unfamiliar; this journey can be a massive head trip for some of us.  I'm well aware.  Orthodoxy really needs to be understood on its own terms, though.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 05:24:00 AM »
1. As posters noticed above - it's something typical for these cultures, including Etiopians and Eritreans that have been Orthodox a long, long time. It also existed in OT times.
2. Every group of people has its own way to sahre joy or other emotions, or approvement. So in Romanian a lot of people hold candle during taking the Communion. Arab women give characteristic sound on weddings, exlamation "Christ is risen". Other (Polish Catholics, also some Antiochians, occassionaly Serbs, I think Greeks too) clap hands at certain moments, e.g at good sermons). And so on.
3. Please note that these dances happen at certain moments - during partaking the Communion and after Divine Liturgy.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 07:20:21 AM »
So what if its liturgical dance in Kenya . . .  Don't give a %#@ about it.
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Re: Liturgical Dance in Kenya and in Africa under Alexandria
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 04:33:26 PM »
1. As posters noticed above - it's something typical for these cultures, including Etiopians and Eritreans that have been Orthodox a long, long time. It also existed in OT times.
2. Every group of people has its own way to sahre joy or other emotions, or approvement. So in Romanian a lot of people hold candle during taking the Communion. Arab women give characteristic sound on weddings, exlamation "Christ is risen". Other (Polish Catholics, also some Antiochians, occassionaly Serbs, I think Greeks too) clap hands at certain moments, e.g at good sermons). And so on.
3. Please note that these dances happen at certain moments - during partaking the Communion and after Divine Liturgy.

+1
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