Author Topic: Pope Francis mulls the excommumication of Mafiosi and corrupt officials  (Read 1424 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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https://heatst.com/world/the-pope-wants-to-ban-the-mafia-from-going-to-church/

The ancient canons provided for the excommunication of the faithful in response to certain severe crimes like murder, for example, the canons John the Faster.

However, these were temporary excommunications.  What the Pope proposes worries me; is he proposing depriving these people of sacraments for the rest of their life?  Discontinuing prison ministries?   I don't know what the Pope means by "excommunication" in these cases.

Everyone deserves the ministry of the Orthodox Church; sometimes it is approproiate to withold the chalice for a time, but what I feel like is being discussed here is a politically motivated, irreversible anathema against corrupt bureaucrats, businessmen and members of organized crime, many of whom it might be considered were obviously not devout or practicing Catholics in any sense; they represent the group of people baptized, who may have in their childhood gone to church, but are essentially already excommunicate.  And my fear is this might cut people off who are spiritually recovering from their sin from vital services like prison ministry, and cause them to commit suicide.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:53:20 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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I think it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, so I don't care what they do.
God bless!

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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When you excommunicate mafiosi but not politicians who promote sodomy and infanticide

Offline Alpha60

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When you excommunicate mafiosi but not politicians who promote sodomy and infanticide


Indeed.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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I think it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, so I don't care what they do.

Well, actually, it does concern us, in that if the Catholics start permanently excommunicating people for bribery and corruption, these people still need to be ministered to. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Vanhyo

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What do you think?
If you want holy communion quit the mafia & repent ?

Offline Alpha60

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What do you think?
If you want holy communion quit the mafia & repent ?

I agree.  But, it looks like Pope Francis is considering excommunicating or denying the ministry to those who have served prison sentences or are in jail, who are penitent and want to reform.

Meanwhile the Catholic Church continues to communicate politicians who support euthanasia and abortion.  That's as corrupt as taking a bribe, IMO.

"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Lepanto

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What do you think?
If you want holy communion quit the mafia & repent ?

I agree.  But, it looks like Pope Francis is considering excommunicating or denying the ministry to those who have served prison sentences or are in jail, who are penitent and want to reform.

Meanwhile the Catholic Church continues to communicate politicians who support euthanasia and abortion.  That's as corrupt as taking a bribe, IMO.

Never miss an opportunity for bashing the Catholic church, eh?
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Alpha60

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What do you think?
If you want holy communion quit the mafia & repent ?

I agree.  But, it looks like Pope Francis is considering excommunicating or denying the ministry to those who have served prison sentences or are in jail, who are penitent and want to reform.

Meanwhile the Catholic Church continues to communicate politicians who support euthanasia and abortion.  That's as corrupt as taking a bribe, IMO.

Never miss an opportunity for bashing the Catholic church, eh?

Obviously you are unfamiliar with my posting history on OCNet.  I have callled for full communion between Rome and the Orthodox without any caveat other than the recognition of our autocephaly; I have expressed an opinion that RC sacraments are probably valid, I have recognized some RC saints as worthy of the honour from an Orthodox perspective (Ss. Bernard of Clairvaux, Bruno of the Trappists, Francis of Assisi, Dominic Guzman, Carlos Borromeo, Xavier Jimenez, Catharine of Sienna, Pius X and various martyrs, among others); I have also praised the episcopal dignity of certain Catholic bishops, including the current and former Bishops of Mostar, Raymond Cardinal Burke, Pope Benedict XVI, Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, and the current Bishops of Madison, WI and Marquette,  among others.

I dislike Pope Francis, I consider his Year of Mercy to be biased, in that the treatment of certain canonical traditional groups such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate has not been merciful.

This does not mean that I dislike the Catholic Church, or would seize any opportunity to "bash" it.  The RCC is not my target.  My concern is what such a policy from Pope Francis could mean.

Pope Francis has had some very bad ideas, some of which came frightening close to influencing Orthodoxy.  Recall the proposal discussed by His Holiness Pope Francis with the Archbishop of Canterbury and His Holiness Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria, an autocephalous Patriarch of my Church, to celebrate Easter on a common date, with the suggested date being the second Sunday in April.  That idea was of course contrary to the acts of the Council of Nicea, and appears to have been shelved.

Pope Francis has done some good work regarding the persecution of Christians in the Middle East, but has a tendency to make ambiguous statements, even encyclicals, which are troubling (for example, Amoris Laetitia, which moved the RCC closer to Protestantism than Orthodoxy on the issue of marriage and divorce, but which did cause a lot of Catholics to take a closer look at us).

Thus far Pope Francis hasn't done anything which makes me not desire ecumenical reunion with the RCC, but he leans in a direction I find troubling, whereas Pope Benedict XVI's reign greatly benefitted and increased the use of the traditional Latin Mass, which is more compatible with Orthodox liturgics than the Novus Ordo.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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https://heatst.com/world/the-pope-wants-to-ban-the-mafia-from-going-to-church/

The ancient canons provided for the excommunication of the faithful in response to certain severe crimes like murder, for example, the canons John the Faster.

However, these were temporary excommunications.  What the Pope proposes worries me; is he proposing depriving these people of sacraments for the rest of their life?  Discontinuing prison ministries?   I don't know what the Pope means by "excommunication" in these cases.

Everyone deserves the ministry of the Orthodox Church; sometimes it is approproiate to withold the chalice for a time, but what I feel like is being discussed here is a politically motivated, irreversible anathema against corrupt bureaucrats, businessmen and members of organized crime, many of whom it might be considered were obviously not devout or practicing Catholics in any sense; they represent the group of people baptized, who may have in their childhood gone to church, but are essentially already excommunicate.  And my fear is this might cut people off who are spiritually recovering from their sin from vital services like prison ministry, and cause them to commit suicide.

What do you think?

Yes, I quite agree that our fallen Orthodox brother the Pope of Rome is nefariously conducting an underhanded genocide by suicide, and that, yes, it is politically-motivated against his rivals who happen to be in the mafia, and that, yes, above all, the Oriental Orthodox headed by that caped hero Alpha are bound by Christian duty to intervene with an alternative chalice.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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I am not generally a Pope Francis defender, but I think you are blowing this out of proportion. First of all, I'm not sure Heat Street is an authoritative source on Catholic canon law, and people generally have an exaggerated sense of what excommunication means in Catholicism. I am sure that this means the creation of certain legal structures that provide excommunication latae sententiae (the fancy canonical Latin term for "automatic excommunication") for certain crimes associated with the Mafia and similar groups. This would deprive the excommunicated from receiving the grace of the sacraments until they repent of their crimes. If they repent, their excommunication can be lifted, absolution given, and they may receive Holy Communion.

This is what used to be called "minor excommunication" under Catholic canon law, as opposed to "major excommunication," or "anathema," which declared an excommunicated person vitandus ("to be shunned"), and in Catholic countries this had severe secular effects, such as other Catholics no being permitted to associate with them. The major excommunication no longer forms part of Roman Catholic canon law.
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   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline Lepanto

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What do you think?
If you want holy communion quit the mafia & repent ?

I agree.  But, it looks like Pope Francis is considering excommunicating or denying the ministry to those who have served prison sentences or are in jail, who are penitent and want to reform.

Meanwhile the Catholic Church continues to communicate politicians who support euthanasia and abortion.  That's as corrupt as taking a bribe, IMO.

Never miss an opportunity for bashing the Catholic church, eh?

Obviously you are unfamiliar with my posting history on OCNet.  I have callled for full communion between Rome and the Orthodox without any caveat other than the recognition of our autocephaly; I have expressed an opinion that RC sacraments are probably valid, I have recognized some RC saints as worthy of the honour from an Orthodox perspective (Ss. Bernard of Clairvaux, Bruno of the Trappists, Francis of Assisi, Dominic Guzman, Carlos Borromeo, Xavier Jimenez, Catharine of Sienna, Pius X and various martyrs, among others); I have also praised the episcopal dignity of certain Catholic bishops, including the current and former Bishops of Mostar, Raymond Cardinal Burke, Pope Benedict XVI, Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, and the current Bishops of Madison, WI and Marquette,  among others.

I dislike Pope Francis, I consider his Year of Mercy to be biased, in that the treatment of certain canonical traditional groups such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate has not been merciful.

This does not mean that I dislike the Catholic Church, or would seize any opportunity to "bash" it.  The RCC is not my target.  My concern is what such a policy from Pope Francis could mean.

Pope Francis has had some very bad ideas, some of which came frightening close to influencing Orthodoxy.  Recall the proposal discussed by His Holiness Pope Francis with the Archbishop of Canterbury and His Holiness Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria, an autocephalous Patriarch of my Church, to celebrate Easter on a common date, with the suggested date being the second Sunday in April.  That idea was of course contrary to the acts of the Council of Nicea, and appears to have been shelved.

Pope Francis has done some good work regarding the persecution of Christians in the Middle East, but has a tendency to make ambiguous statements, even encyclicals, which are troubling (for example, Amoris Laetitia, which moved the RCC closer to Protestantism than Orthodoxy on the issue of marriage and divorce, but which did cause a lot of Catholics to take a closer look at us).

Thus far Pope Francis hasn't done anything which makes me not desire ecumenical reunion with the RCC, but he leans in a direction I find troubling, whereas Pope Benedict XVI's reign greatly benefitted and increased the use of the traditional Latin Mass, which is more compatible with Orthodox liturgics than the Novus Ordo.

Now I see that an apology is in order:
I was not aware of your position in this and I am sorry for accusing you of "bashing".
While I do not agree with some things you wrote, this is not the right thread for
taking this further.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pope Francis mulls the excommumication of Mafiosi and corrupt officials
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2018, 09:26:15 PM »
Tfw I find a thread quoting Heat Street (rest in Reese's Pieces) on an ecclesiastical topic on oc.net lol.
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Pope Francis mulls the excommumication of Mafiosi and corrupt officials
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2018, 10:06:34 PM »
I think it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, so I don't care what they do.
+1

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Pope Francis mulls the excommumication of Mafiosi and corrupt officials
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2018, 10:51:01 PM »
Tfw I find a thread quoting Heat Street (rest in Reese's Pieces) on an ecclesiastical topic on oc.net lol.

Thankfully I think there has been only one other thread that quoted hs ...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pope Francis mulls the excommumication of Mafiosi and corrupt officials
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 12:12:37 AM »
Tfw I find a thread quoting Heat Street (rest in Reese's Pieces) on an ecclesiastical topic on oc.net lol.

Thankfully I think there has been only one other thread that quoted hs ...

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Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.