Author Topic: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.  (Read 995 times)

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Offline Gladius

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The archpriest I've visited (subscribed to the EP of Constantinople) has said that I do not need to baptise again and Chrismation will be enough. However, I've been reading a lot about the issues of validity of baptism and how immersion is expected and affusion could only happen in case of grave illness. It wasn't my case. Some of the information comes from Old Calendarists sure, but Patrick Barnes and other world Orthodox people I've read seem to agree on this point as well.

I've also read ROCOR and Athos receive converts from the Franco-Latin Church like myself via baptism. I am uneasy about this a bit and wonder if it wouldn't be better for the state of my sacramental life to address myself to a church that will immerse me first before Chrismating me.

What do you think? Is this unnecessary fear? Or would it be better for me to seek out Orthodox baptism via immersion for the state of my soul?

Thanks a lot.

Offline biro

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 06:59:16 PM »
I think it is unnecessary. But if you are troubled about it, talk to your priest.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 08:27:21 PM »
Yes, it is an unnecessary fear. Listen to the archpriest, not Patrick Barnes or any other self-appointed canonist. I highly recommend staying away from orthodoxinfo.com and similar sites until you are well established in the faith. There are some good articles on there but tons and tons of neurosis/ OCD inducing material that gives a highly distorted and historically uninformed picture of Orthodoxy.
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Offline IXOYE

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2018, 08:55:55 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Gladius!

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 09:07:54 PM »
This question has come up in my parish a couple of times, and I'll repeat what they said.

1. God won't send you to hell on a technicality, especially in obedience to a Priest.
 
2. Under several periods of the Orthodox Church, receiving Roman Catholics via Chrismation was the norm. In fact, under Peter the Great in Russia, Roman converts could be received via Confession alone (that is, the Russian Church apparently didn't even re-Chrismate).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 09:10:08 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 09:08:42 PM »
Also, welcome to the forum! Are you Carpatho-Russian or Greek?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 09:08:46 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 07:50:27 AM »
Because of this I would go to ROCOR and be baptised again. http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html Woman shines being baptised, man not so much being chrismated.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 08:38:34 AM »
Baptism opens the gates to Heaven. You want the gates open for sure as the other option is Hell.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 08:42:14 AM »
Yes, it is an unnecessary fear. Listen to the archpriest, not Patrick Barnes or any other self-appointed canonist. I highly recommend staying away from orthodoxinfo.com and similar sites until you are well established in the faith. There are some good articles on there but tons and tons of neurosis/ OCD inducing material that gives a highly distorted and historically uninformed picture of Orthodoxy.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 09:07:03 AM »
Because of this I would go to ROCOR and be baptised again. http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html Woman shines being baptised, man not so much being chrismated.

God bless you Pasadi, but this is frankly blasphemous. It is irresponsible and dangerous for you to push this stuff.

Look: God is not an evil genie trying to get us on a technicality. At the last judgment, he may judge us for many things, but he is not a trickster eager to go, "Ha! You only got chrismated? Nice try, sucker!" But that is exactly what these doubts and anxieties about having the correct form of baptism suggest.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 09:10:10 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 09:55:54 AM »
2. Under several periods of the Orthodox Church, receiving Roman Catholics via Chrismation was the norm. In fact, under Peter the Great in Russia, Roman converts could be received via Confession alone (that is, the Russian Church apparently didn't even re-Chrismate).

I've seen this (once) in the contemporary U.S.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 09:58:06 AM by Agabus »
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 01:19:43 PM »
Because of this I would go to ROCOR and be baptised again. http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html Woman shines being baptised, man not so much being chrismated.

God bless you Pasadi, but this is frankly blasphemous. It is irresponsible and dangerous for you to push this stuff.

Look: God is not an evil genie trying to get us on a technicality. At the last judgment, he may judge us for many things, but he is not a trickster eager to go, "Ha! You only got chrismated? Nice try, sucker!" But that is exactly what these doubts and anxieties about having the correct form of baptism suggest.

+1
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 01:56:37 PM »
Because of this I would go to ROCOR and be baptised again. http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html Woman shines being baptised, man not so much being chrismated.

God bless you Pasadi, but this is frankly blasphemous. It is irresponsible and dangerous for you to push this stuff.

I agree, but you should beware the ire of his considerable fan base.
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Offline Gladius

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2018, 05:39:40 PM »
Do you guys think it'd come across as improper to ask my Archpriest if I may be rebaptised, even though I know Constantinople's standard procedure for ex-Latins is to be received by Chrismation?

I know he spent time in Athos and is thus likely aware that they receive converts in the Holy Mountain via rebaptism (and since I see it as the centre of Orthodoxy in the world, I'd feel more at ease following their procedure), and can probably explain my doubts regarding affusion and how Patristics consistently say immersion ought to be the valid form of baptism.


Offline Agabus

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 05:40:58 PM »
Do you guys think it'd come across as improper to ask my Archpriest if I may be rebaptised, even though I know Constantinople's standard procedure for ex-Latins is to be received by Chrismation?

It certainly comes off as you questioning him since he already gave you the answer.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 07:16:10 PM »
Do you guys think it'd come across as improper to ask my Archpriest if I may be rebaptised, even though I know Constantinople's standard procedure for ex-Latins is to be received by Chrismation?

I know he spent time in Athos and is thus likely aware that they receive converts in the Holy Mountain via rebaptism (and since I see it as the centre of Orthodoxy in the world, I'd feel more at ease following their procedure), and can probably explain my doubts regarding affusion and how Patristics consistently say immersion ought to be the valid form of baptism.

1. What Agabus said. Yes, it would be improper. Begin your journey to Orthodoxy the right way, with trust and humility.

2. “Normative” and “valid” are not the same thing. The Church has recognized the possibility of baptism by affusion since ancient times, even if it  isn’t the ideal practice.

3. Constantinople’s practice of receiving Latins by chrismation was instituted at the synod of 1484, the first council to reject the Florence union. This was at a time when affusion was common for Latin baptisms. Whether you regard your baptism as valid, or you adopt the view that the Orthodox chrismation fills in what is lacking, there is no reason it should be repeated.

4. The center of Orthodoxy is not a mountain.

5. Reading some online articles does not render you competent to interpret “Patristics”, let alone second guess the priest receiving you.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 07:52:02 PM »
Well in Transylvania afgusiin has been the norm for centuries . I've heard stories about people being given "corrective" baptisms by Moldovan or Athonite monks.  But that only happens if you really look for it.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2018, 11:31:33 AM »
What if its some other subject and doesn't have anything to do with Orthodoxy? ..
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 04:22:29 PM »
Jesus said to baptise.
If CAtholic baptism is not valid unction is not baptism. ROCOR rebaptism will give you a baptism.
If CAtholic baptism is valid then both unction and rebaptism will work.
So ROCOR rebaptism works in both cases and opens the gates of Heaven in both cases. Since both are valid in orthodoxy I would choose ROCOR rebaptism.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2018, 04:41:52 PM »
If baptism by chrismation was enough for Ss. Alexandra and Elizabeth of Russia, as well as for Blessed Seraphim of Platina, it is enough for you. If St. Dionysios of Alexandria chrismated those baptised by heretics, so can your priest.

Orthodox chrismation infuses grace into an old heterodox baptism. This can be described as a matter of new form being infused into old matter if you want to use Western philosophical terms. Some traditionalists will reaffirm Orthodox chrismation, but it's not as a big deal as they make it seem.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 04:45:40 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2018, 04:43:57 PM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2018, 05:29:04 PM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."

Maybe people who post a lot on here lol?...
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2018, 05:35:17 PM »
Do you guys think it'd come across as improper to ask my Archpriest if I may be rebaptised, even though I know Constantinople's standard procedure for ex-Latins is to be received by Chrismation?

It certainly comes off as you questioning him since he already gave you the answer.

While I agree that re-baptism is not necessary I think you are being too hard on him. He's just a prospective convert. Let him ask even silly questions from his priest.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2018, 06:03:38 PM »
Jesus said to baptise.
If CAtholic baptism is not valid unction is not baptism. ROCOR rebaptism will give you a baptism.
If CAtholic baptism is valid then both unction and rebaptism will work.
So ROCOR rebaptism works in both cases and opens the gates of Heaven in both cases. Since both are valid in orthodoxy I would choose ROCOR rebaptism.

Why do you assume that unction cannot make the invalid baptism valid? Lots of Orthodox priests and bishops seem to think it does.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2018, 10:04:33 PM »
Jesus said to baptise.
If CAtholic baptism is not valid unction is not baptism. ROCOR rebaptism will give you a baptism.
If CAtholic baptism is valid then both unction and rebaptism will work.
So ROCOR rebaptism works in both cases and opens the gates of Heaven in both cases. Since both are valid in orthodoxy I would choose ROCOR rebaptism.

Why do you assume that unction cannot make the invalid baptism valid? Lots of Orthodox priests and bishops seem to think it does.
Not to mention that the reasoning is faulty: If Catholic baptism is valid then rebaptism is actually a grievous sin for the ROCOR priest, repeating that which cannot be repeated.

Again, the only good answer is: Don't trust the Internet or really this board, trust the parish priest who's going to be baptising/chrismating/receiving your libellus condemning your former errors, as the case may be.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2018, 10:07:04 PM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."

Probably not. Seems to be a minor outbreak of it online.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2018, 10:42:26 AM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."
Good point.Don't worry about people at the parish as they would be honored to worship with them and in the 9th heaven for you going to their Church. Worry about when you are at the gates of Heaven and want these OPEN and how hard would be to come back to this life to get a proper baptism. That being said try to impress God not people. I'm not saying unction is not good. I am saying between two options, rebaptism is better in my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 10:49:01 AM by pasadi97 »
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2018, 11:10:06 AM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."
Good point.Don't worry about people at the parish as they would be honored to worship with them and in the 9th heaven for you going to their Church. Worry about when you are at the gates of Heaven and want these OPEN and how hard would be to come back to this life to get a proper baptism. That being said try to impress God not people. I'm not saying unction is not good. I am saying between two options, rebaptism is better in my opinion.

Rebaptism stinks of Donatism. Chrismation should suffice.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 11:11:26 AM by Rohzek »
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2018, 01:09:17 PM »
Chrismation does suffice.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2018, 02:31:11 PM »
I would also point out that it is more sinful to, in doubt, trust in your own wisdom than your priest's wisdom. If the priest is wrong, it is to his condemnation during the Last Judgment than to yours.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2018, 02:35:04 PM »
I sometimes wonder if there are people in the typical parish who are looking around thinking to themselves, "Well I'm not going to question out loud whether Tom and his family are real Orthodox, but they were only Christmated after all, and one can't be too careful..."
Good point.Don't worry about people at the parish as they would be honored to worship with them and in the 9th heaven for you going to their Church. Worry about when you are at the gates of Heaven and want these OPEN and how hard would be to come back to this life to get a proper baptism. That being said try to impress God not people. I'm not saying unction is not good. I am saying between two options, rebaptism is better in my opinion.

You keep implying that certain things are impossible for God. If it really comes down to it, He can and will save the baptised and the unbaptised alike, there's no need to worry about that.

It's more important to obey one's priest whom God has set over them, as the post above me said.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2018, 02:21:53 AM »
If baptism by chrismation was enough for Ss. Alexandra and Elizabeth of Russia, as well as for Blessed Seraphim of Platina, it is enough for you. If St. Dionysios of Alexandria chrismated those baptised by heretics, so can your priest.
If you're referring to my post, it might be worthwhile to read it again. The issue at hand in that account is actually different.
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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2018, 03:03:13 PM »
Jesus said to baptise.
If CAtholic baptism is not valid unction is not baptism. ROCOR rebaptism will give you a baptism.
If CAtholic baptism is valid then both unction and rebaptism will work.
So ROCOR rebaptism works in both cases and opens the gates of Heaven in both cases. Since both are valid in orthodoxy I would choose ROCOR rebaptism.

Why do you assume that unction cannot make the invalid baptism valid? Lots of Orthodox priests and bishops seem to think it does.
Unction and Chrism are two separate sacraments involving oils. Chrism comes from the EP. Unction is made at the parish.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2018, 03:23:20 PM »
Most all of Orthodox Romania is baptized in this way. It's not the best or ideal form, but it's acceptable. Commonly done in the Moscow patriarchate as well:


Offline Tzimis

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2018, 03:24:39 PM »
Chrismation does suffice.
+1. In the gospel of Phillip.  I know not canonical. Chrism is more powerful than baptism and is what makes a christian a christian.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2018, 03:26:47 PM »
My daughter was baptized at about four years old, and absolutely refused to be dunked in the water, so the priest stood her in the font and poured the water over her head using some kind of fancy precious metal pitcher.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 03:39:00 PM »
To the OP. If you wanted to be dunked. You should have told the preist you were a Jew or Muslim.  He would have sent you toys r us to purchase a kiddy pool.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 10:53:47 PM »
Chrismation does suffice.
+1. In the gospel of Phillip.  I know not canonical. Chrism is more powerful than baptism and is what makes a christian a christian.

You really should stop talking about things you know nothing about.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2018, 08:03:39 AM »
In the end you and your family will be alone at the gates of Heaven ALONE. The priest and us will not be there only the decision you made that need to open these gates. So make the smart decision as it will be very hard to correct it. Eastern Orthodox Church offers you rebaptism that include Chrismation that is MORE than Chrismation and chrismation.

As we saw in the article the girl that did rebaptism glowed so something happened. Her husband that did Chrismation did not glow. http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html So I would say take a vacation to a place that has ROCOR get rebaptised and come back.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline biro

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2018, 08:22:56 AM »
Chrismation is good enough.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2018, 08:26:41 AM »
If baptism by chrismation was enough for Ss. Alexandra and Elizabeth of Russia, as well as for Blessed Seraphim of Platina, it is enough for you. If St. Dionysios of Alexandria chrismated those baptised by heretics, so can your priest.
If you're referring to my post, it might be worthwhile to read it again. The issue at hand in that account is actually different.
Please do tell more, I re-read it and didn't get past what I said.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 08:27:02 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2018, 08:58:51 AM »
If baptism by chrismation was enough for Ss. Alexandra and Elizabeth of Russia, as well as for Blessed Seraphim of Platina, it is enough for you. If St. Dionysios of Alexandria chrismated those baptised by heretics, so can your priest.
If you're referring to my post, it might be worthwhile to read it again. The issue at hand in that account is actually different.
Please do tell more, I re-read it and didn't get past what I said.
St. Dionysios didn’t receive the man by chrismation, his predecessor did, (it actually doesn’t specify whether this was his original means of admittance) and the reasoning he gives to Xystus as to why he didn’t readminister baptism is on account of the man being a communing member of the Church for such a great period of time.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 09:04:09 AM by Antonis »
How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
I thought he had, a few posts ago.

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Roman Catholic, uneasy about having been baptised by affusion.
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2018, 09:05:14 AM »
St. Dionysios didn’t receive the man by chrismation, his predecessor did, (it actually doesn’t specify whether this was his original means of admittance) and the reasoning he gives to Xystus as to why he didn’t readminister baptism is on account of the man being a communing member of the Church for such a great period of time.
Oh, I got this, I just thought what I said could be a corollary.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.