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Offline Ray1

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Judaism and Christianity.
« on: April 01, 2018, 12:35:51 AM »
Blessed Easter to all those who celebrate it and Blessed Passover to the Jewish people.

It is a fact that Judaism is the mother of Christianity, and that without the Jewish people, there wouldn't be Christianity. Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul all were Jewish.

The issue I tend to face whenever Christianity and Judaism are compared is that when, how, and why the transition happened?. When I look at Judaism of the first century, and the Old Testament, it is challenging to see a logical line between them and what has come to be called Christianity. To give an example, when someone writes a book or an essay, they have to make sure that their paragraphs are connected, and that the transition from one part to the other happens smoothly, there is a link to join them together. Now that link to me seems missing. How do you go from the idea that the Messiah will come to establish the Law of Moses on earth, build the Temple, bring the Jewish people together, and all will offer sacrifices on the mountain of Zion, to a Messiah born of  a virgin (which is only exists in the OT once, and it is somewhat vague) to dying on the cross, and then rising from the dead? From a God that insisted on honouring the Sabbath to One that changed it to Sunday. From a God that insisted on following the Torah, to a God that says it is pointless to follow the Torah anymore.

In Summary, how do we connect the Old Testament and its theology with the entirely different theology of the New Testament?

Blessed Easter!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 12:37:46 AM by Ray1 »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2018, 12:59:31 AM »
The idea of closed religious systems is not such an ancient thing, the line was much blurrier in old times. The Patriarchs and Prophets were in a sense Jewish, since they practiced the religion that was mostly but not only known as the tribal religion of Judah (Moses, however, was a Levite; Noah was older than any "Hebrew people"), but they were also Christians, since their religion was centered in the expectation of the Christ (synonym for the Messiah). The Apostles were in a sense Jewish, since affirmed that particular religious tradition and were mostly from that tribe (but not wholly - St. Paul, for instance, was a Benjaminite), and Christian, since they followed Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

The glory revealed to Jesus Christ makes the laws of the Old Testament feel like straw, but still, he was not abolishing anything. He was revealing the nucleus of the Old Law, and offering salvation to the whole world through the partakers of the Old Covenant. If you want a lengthy yet very complete explanation of this matter, go through the 19th book of Against Faustus, by St. Augustine of Hippo.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 02:43:28 AM »
Blessed Easter to all those who celebrate it and Blessed Passover to the Jewish people.

It is a fact that Judaism is the mother of Christianity, and that without the Jewish people, there wouldn't be Christianity. Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul all were Jewish.

The issue I tend to face whenever Christianity and Judaism are compared is that when, how, and why the transition happened?. When I look at Judaism of the first century, and the Old Testament, it is challenging to see a logical line between them and what has come to be called Christianity. To give an example, when someone writes a book or an essay, they have to make sure that their paragraphs are connected, and that the transition from one part to the other happens smoothly, there is a link to join them together. Now that link to me seems missing. How do you go from the idea that the Messiah will come to establish the Law of Moses on earth, build the Temple, bring the Jewish people together, and all will offer sacrifices on the mountain of Zion, to a Messiah born of  a virgin (which is only exists in the OT once, and it is somewhat vague) to dying on the cross, and then rising from the dead? 

The "triumphant Messiah" vs. "suffering Messiah" is so ambiguous in the OT prophecies that some Second Temple Rabbis actually wound up positing two Messiahs- Ben Joseph who would suffer and Ben David who would reign victorious. The NT's contribution was just to find a way to combine both into the same figure.

From a God that insisted on honouring the Sabbath to One that changed it to Sunday. From a God that insisted on following the Torah, to a God that says it is pointless to follow the Torah anymore.

Quote from: Hosea 6:6
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.

In Summary, how do we connect the Old Testament and its theology with the entirely different theology of the New Testament?

There's not as many differences as is often supposed.

Blessed Easter!

Christ is Risen!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 02:43:53 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 03:08:46 AM »
You might find helpful some of what St. Irenaeus said in the Fourth Book of Against Heresies. This doesn't do it justice, but to summarize what he said is that the morals and beliefs given by God are the same, but that how these work themselves out in practice and are manifested among humans differed. Once God became man, however, this all changed as all the former variety was superseded by a loftier way, and it was possible not just because he taught a fancy philosophy of doing things the right way, but also because he actually changed things so that it became possible. St. Irenaeus also argues that the OT plainly foretold of the coming and mission of Christ; this is so even though it was not only "the Jews" (as a vague grouping) who failed to understand, but even his own disciples who seen his deeds and heard his words 24/7 for years failed to get it (Acts 1:6). It was not until God sent his grace and 'lifted the veil' from their eyes that they understood.

"We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Cor. 3:13-16)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 03:11:28 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Shamati

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 04:01:45 AM »
It only makes sense when you see it as different covenants. The Judaism we have today descends only from phariseical Judaism. There were also Hellenic Jews, most of whom became   when the temple was destroyed (which makes fulfilling the mosaic covenant impossible). Jesus Christ established a New Covenant (Testament) between God & Man as was previously done by the pre-incarnate Word of God with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses & David.

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 02:49:39 PM »
It only makes sense when you see it as different covenants. The Judaism we have today descends only from phariseical Judaism. There were also Hellenic Jews, most of whom became   when the temple was destroyed (which makes fulfilling the mosaic covenant impossible).

Became what?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 03:46:48 AM »
The idea of closed religious systems is not such an ancient thing, the line was much blurrier in old times. The Patriarchs and Prophets were in a sense Jewish, since they practiced the religion that was mostly but not only known as the tribal religion of Judah (Moses, however, was a Levite; Noah was older than any "Hebrew people"), but they were also Christians, since their religion was centered in the expectation of the Christ (synonym for the Messiah). The Apostles were in a sense Jewish, since affirmed that particular religious tradition and were mostly from that tribe (but not wholly - St. Paul, for instance, was a Benjaminite), and Christian, since they followed Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

The glory revealed to Jesus Christ makes the laws of the Old Testament feel like straw, but still, he was not abolishing anything. He was revealing the nucleus of the Old Law, and offering salvation to the whole world through the partakers of the Old Covenant. If you want a lengthy yet very complete explanation of this matter, go through the 19th book of Against Faustus, by St. Augustine of Hippo.

But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 04:00:40 AM »

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.


But then why was there severe legal consequencing to breaking such rituals? There are people who say even though God set the punishments for breaking the rituals, they were never implemented, but just God's way of trying to show how impossible it is to keep the rules, which then would lead to His next step, and that salvation through Christ. And then there are those who say God didn't set these rules in the first place, but they are people's assumption about what God would want them to do. Which one you think is more logical, or if there is a third option?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 04:56:07 AM »

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.


But then why was there severe legal consequencing to breaking such rituals?

The ceremonial law was there to mark out the difference (in every sphere of life) between the called out people of God and their child sacrificing neighbors. The harsh penalties and strict requirements were there to keep the Jews from sliding into that kind of sin. And we see several times in the OT that they were certainly often tempted to, if only to become as powerful as their neighbors by invoking their gods.

But even with the harsh penalties, we see times when it seems that God was still sensitive to human needs, such as with David and his men eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21 (which Jesus would later refer to).

And then we also see Jesus lessening penalties for the moral law in the Pericope Adulterae- using an episode that should have led to the death of the woman to instead both forgive her and to show her accusers the sorry states of their own hearts.

There are people who say even though God set the punishments for breaking the rituals, they were never implemented, but just God's way of trying to show how impossible it is to keep the rules, which then would lead to His next step, and that salvation through Christ. And then there are those who say God didn't set these rules in the first place, but they are people's assumption about what God would want them to do. Which one you think is more logical, or if there is a third option?

I think it's likely a little of both. The Law had a certain overall logic to it that was definitely useful in its day (both as a guard against Israel falling into idolatry and as a "schoolmaster" to bring all men to the knowledge of our need for Christ to make us whole), but that doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely everything in it was therefore approved by God.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:57:44 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 07:29:32 AM »
The idea of closed religious systems is not such an ancient thing, the line was much blurrier in old times. The Patriarchs and Prophets were in a sense Jewish, since they practiced the religion that was mostly but not only known as the tribal religion of Judah (Moses, however, was a Levite; Noah was older than any "Hebrew people"), but they were also Christians, since their religion was centered in the expectation of the Christ (synonym for the Messiah). The Apostles were in a sense Jewish, since affirmed that particular religious tradition and were mostly from that tribe (but not wholly - St. Paul, for instance, was a Benjaminite), and Christian, since they followed Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

The glory revealed to Jesus Christ makes the laws of the Old Testament feel like straw, but still, he was not abolishing anything. He was revealing the nucleus of the Old Law, and offering salvation to the whole world through the partakers of the Old Covenant. If you want a lengthy yet very complete explanation of this matter, go through the 19th book of Against Faustus, by St. Augustine of Hippo.

But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.

It was fulfilled, not abolished.  There is no need for a sacrificial system after the ultimate once-for-all sacrifice of the Lamb of God.  There is no need for purification of everything, when the ultimate spiritual purification can take place within.  "Wash the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean as well."  And Psalm 50/51 indicates this concept in the latter part of it when it talks about God not loving burn sacrifices, but desiring a humbled spirit.   The dietary restrictions were lifted, but not banned, when Peter had his vision from God of being able to take and eat of all the animals.  Yet those who wanted to keep the Mosaic law weren't told not to keep it, but not to make it a burden on their brothers (Acts something--the Council of Jerusalem).  Theoretically, we can still kill two doves and dip their blood in a hyssop branch and sprinkle the whole house with it when we're afflicted by mold (or however that went), but it's not necessary.  What still remains are the moral laws, which were given deeper meaning and actually more stringent requirements, yet there is more forgiveness when we stumble (daily, daily, daily), because of His death and resurrection.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 07:39:39 AM »
But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.
No, because the many underlying principles behind those laws (for example, respectively, spiritual purity and remembrance of God, or abstention from harmful things and the prophecy of the descent into hell) were kept intact. The external practice changed. Doing an analogy with law studies, it's like the rules changed according to the same principles.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 07:40:17 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 05:12:54 PM »
Christ summed up the law and prophets in His commands to love God and neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc ) and the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12) and live by the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19 )

Judaism basically worships & lives by these in a pre Gospel sense. Orthodox Christianity lives by these, by Christ’s  Gospel and in the sacraments the Lord instituted.The details of Mosaic law were not requir ed of the Gentiles ( Acts 15).

The 1st c.  Didache exemplifies this pattern. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 05:18:53 PM by recent convert »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 09:25:41 PM »
Thread locked pending moderator review.

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 03:37:27 PM »
I went ahead and split off the anti-Semitic rants and moved them to the private forum.  Anymore off topic rants may incur the wrath of the mods and get a penalty.

Carry on the conversation of the original topic.

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« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:40:04 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 05:01:06 PM »
Huh. The things I don't see when I lose track of a thread for a while...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2018, 11:12:04 PM »

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.


But then why was there severe legal consequencing to breaking such rituals?

The ceremonial law was there to mark out the difference (in every sphere of life) between the called out people of God and their child sacrificing neighbors. The harsh penalties and strict requirements were there to keep the Jews from sliding into that kind of sin. And we see several times in the OT that they were certainly often tempted to, if only to become as powerful as their neighbors by invoking their gods.

But even with the harsh penalties, we see times when it seems that God was still sensitive to human needs, such as with David and his men eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21 (which Jesus would later refer to).

And then we also see Jesus lessening penalties for the moral law in the Pericope Adulterae- using an episode that should have led to the death of the woman to instead both forgive her and to show her accusers the sorry states of their own hearts.

There are people who say even though God set the punishments for breaking the rituals, they were never implemented, but just God's way of trying to show how impossible it is to keep the rules, which then would lead to His next step, and that salvation through Christ. And then there are those who say God didn't set these rules in the first place, but they are people's assumption about what God would want them to do. Which one you think is more logical, or if there is a third option?

I think it's likely a little of both. The Law had a certain overall logic to it that was definitely useful in its day (both as a guard against Israel falling into idolatry and as a "schoolmaster" to bring all men to the knowledge of our need for Christ to make us whole), but that doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely everything in it was therefore approved by God.

That makes more sense. I think the general opinion of the Old Testament God, even among Christians is that He is a harsh One and very demanding, that any verses with mercy and compassion seem marginal in comparison to the extreme laws and regulations that exist in the Torah. 

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 11:15:46 PM »
The dietary restrictions were lifted, but not banned, when Peter had his vision from God of being able to take and eat of all the animals.  Yet those who wanted to keep the Mosaic law weren't told not to keep it, but not to make it a burden on their brothers (Acts something--the Council of Jerusalem).

I rarely keep that in mind, I tend to think that the NT banned them altogether, but you're right, it didn't ban them and I guess we're free to keep them as long as they don't become means of salvation.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 11:27:15 PM »
But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.
No, because the many underlying principles behind those laws (for example, respectively, spiritual purity and remembrance of God, or abstention from harmful things and the prophecy of the descent into hell) were kept intact. The external practice changed. Doing an analogy with law studies, it's like the rules changed according to the same principles.

But what about the fact that the word Sabbath/Shabbat/Sabat itself means 'to rest' which means that the name of the day itself indicates that it ought to be a day of rest contrary to Sunday?

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2018, 11:28:54 PM »
Christ summed up the law and prophets in His commands to love God and neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc ) and the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12) and live by the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19 )

Judaism basically worships & lives by these in a pre Gospel sense. Orthodox Christianity lives by these, by Christ’s  Gospel and in the sacraments the Lord instituted.The details of Mosaic law were not requir ed of the Gentiles ( Acts 15).

The 1st c.  Didache exemplifies this pattern. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

Thanks, Recent Convert  :) 

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2018, 01:04:27 AM »
But what about the fact that the word Sabbath/Shabbat/Sabat itself means 'to rest' which means that the name of the day itself indicates that it ought to be a day of rest contrary to Sunday?
So what? Christ rested on the seventh day. In hell. Could humanity ask for anything any more fulfilling of the seventh day? He did it.
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May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 04:21:12 AM »

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.


But then why was there severe legal consequencing to breaking such rituals?

The ceremonial law was there to mark out the difference (in every sphere of life) between the called out people of God and their child sacrificing neighbors. The harsh penalties and strict requirements were there to keep the Jews from sliding into that kind of sin. And we see several times in the OT that they were certainly often tempted to, if only to become as powerful as their neighbors by invoking their gods.

But even with the harsh penalties, we see times when it seems that God was still sensitive to human needs, such as with David and his men eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21 (which Jesus would later refer to).

And then we also see Jesus lessening penalties for the moral law in the Pericope Adulterae- using an episode that should have led to the death of the woman to instead both forgive her and to show her accusers the sorry states of their own hearts.

There are people who say even though God set the punishments for breaking the rituals, they were never implemented, but just God's way of trying to show how impossible it is to keep the rules, which then would lead to His next step, and that salvation through Christ. And then there are those who say God didn't set these rules in the first place, but they are people's assumption about what God would want them to do. Which one you think is more logical, or if there is a third option?

I think it's likely a little of both. The Law had a certain overall logic to it that was definitely useful in its day (both as a guard against Israel falling into idolatry and as a "schoolmaster" to bring all men to the knowledge of our need for Christ to make us whole), but that doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely everything in it was therefore approved by God.

That makes more sense. I think the general opinion of the Old Testament God, even among Christians is that He is a harsh One and very demanding, that any verses with mercy and compassion seem marginal in comparison to the extreme laws and regulations that exist in the Torah.

I don't think they were really all that extreme for their time and place, though. It was a harsh world where nonconformity was seen as a threat to the survival of the entire community. Ritual purity was not just a matter of "don't anger the OCD demons," it was seen as throwing the entire order of the universe out of whack.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 06:32:59 PM »
But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.
No, because the many underlying principles behind those laws (for example, respectively, spiritual purity and remembrance of God, or abstention from harmful things and the prophecy of the descent into hell) were kept intact. The external practice changed. Doing an analogy with law studies, it's like the rules changed according to the same principles.

But what about the fact that the word Sabbath/Shabbat/Sabat itself means 'to rest' which means that the name of the day itself indicates that it ought to be a day of rest contrary to Sunday?

I think the two possible answers there are either "The Sabbath is part of the fulfilled ceremonial Law" (Hebrews 3 seems to gesture in this direction with its spirutalizing of various OT Sabbath-related quotes) or "the Sabbath has been moved to Sunday," which I think was St. Justin Martyr's view.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 09:40:32 PM »
But what about the fact that the word Sabbath/Shabbat/Sabat itself means 'to rest' which means that the name of the day itself indicates that it ought to be a day of rest contrary to Sunday?
So what? Christ rested on the seventh day. In hell. Could humanity ask for anything any more fulfilling of the seventh day? He did it.


But wouldn't the fact that Christians do not observe the Sabbath and keeping Kosher food contradicts that? Clearly, God emphasizes in multiple places the importance of people observing these laws, and violating them could result in death. So how can we reconcile the fact that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law with what happened later on after his ministry in which most of the Law was indeed abolished.
No, because the many underlying principles behind those laws (for example, respectively, spiritual purity and remembrance of God, or abstention from harmful things and the prophecy of the descent into hell) were kept intact. The external practice changed. Doing an analogy with law studies, it's like the rules changed according to the same principles.

But what about the fact that the word Sabbath/Shabbat/Sabat itself means 'to rest' which means that the name of the day itself indicates that it ought to be a day of rest contrary to Sunday?

I think the two possible answers there are either "The Sabbath is part of the fulfilled ceremonial Law" (Hebrews 3 seems to gesture in this direction with its spirutalizing of various OT Sabbath-related quotes) or "the Sabbath has been moved to Sunday," which I think was St. Justin Martyr's view.

I never thought of the Sabbath as being a prophecy or a fulfillment of anything, I just always believed it was a day to be observed and then it wasn't, but the fact that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday didn't make sense to me as to why would that mean Saturday should be thrown out. However, now it seems that there was more to the change than just the resurrection, but actually, that it was fulfilled and therefore, it ended there.

Offline Ray1

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 09:43:56 PM »

The heart of the message of the Old Testament prophets was always one of faithfulness to God, first and foremost. Rituals are secondary and only needed when they serve this larger purpose (Mark 2:27 is also significant here). Most of the ceremonial Torah passed into the rituals of the Orthodox liturgy or else was kept on for practical purposes such as in Acts 15.


But then why was there severe legal consequencing to breaking such rituals?

The ceremonial law was there to mark out the difference (in every sphere of life) between the called out people of God and their child sacrificing neighbors. The harsh penalties and strict requirements were there to keep the Jews from sliding into that kind of sin. And we see several times in the OT that they were certainly often tempted to, if only to become as powerful as their neighbors by invoking their gods.

But even with the harsh penalties, we see times when it seems that God was still sensitive to human needs, such as with David and his men eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21 (which Jesus would later refer to).

And then we also see Jesus lessening penalties for the moral law in the Pericope Adulterae- using an episode that should have led to the death of the woman to instead both forgive her and to show her accusers the sorry states of their own hearts.

There are people who say even though God set the punishments for breaking the rituals, they were never implemented, but just God's way of trying to show how impossible it is to keep the rules, which then would lead to His next step, and that salvation through Christ. And then there are those who say God didn't set these rules in the first place, but they are people's assumption about what God would want them to do. Which one you think is more logical, or if there is a third option?

I think it's likely a little of both. The Law had a certain overall logic to it that was definitely useful in its day (both as a guard against Israel falling into idolatry and as a "schoolmaster" to bring all men to the knowledge of our need for Christ to make us whole), but that doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely everything in it was therefore approved by God.

That makes more sense. I think the general opinion of the Old Testament God, even among Christians is that He is a harsh One and very demanding, that any verses with mercy and compassion seem marginal in comparison to the extreme laws and regulations that exist in the Torah.

I don't think they were really all that extreme for their time and place, though. It was a harsh world where nonconformity was seen as a threat to the survival of the entire community. Ritual purity was not just a matter of "don't anger the OCD demons," it was seen as throwing the entire order of the universe out of whack.

Oh yeah for sure, when the laws of OT compared to their environment and time, they are not harsh, but for us today, and also for the people during the time of Jesus, they seemed harsh laws. Multiple early Church discussions were around the issue of the God of OT vs, NT. And the Gnostics took it way too far in saying that the God of the Old Testament couldn't possibly be the God of the New Testament.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 10:13:10 PM »
I never thought of the Sabbath as being a prophecy or a fulfillment of anything, I just always believed it was a day to be observed and then it wasn't, but the fact that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday didn't make sense to me as to why would that mean Saturday should be thrown out. However, now it seems that there was more to the change than just the resurrection, but actually, that it was fulfilled and therefore, it ended there.
Precisely. Christ died in the sixth day (the day of man), rested in the tomb in the seventh (the day of rest) and rose in the eighth (the new day).

Oh yeah for sure, when the laws of OT compared to their environment and time, they are not harsh, but for us today, and also for the people during the time of Jesus, they seemed harsh laws. Multiple early Church discussions were around the issue of the God of OT vs, NT. And the Gnostics took it way too far in saying that the God of the Old Testament couldn't possibly be the God of the New Testament.
I believe the thing with early Gnosticism was more about strange mysticism and anthropology finding way in the bosom of the Early Church than about the horror of OT punishments that nurtures neo-Gnosticism. But that's just my guess.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Judaism and Christianity.
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 10:16:23 PM »
I never thought of the Sabbath as being a prophecy or a fulfillment of anything, I just always believed it was a day to be observed and then it wasn't, but the fact that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday didn't make sense to me as to why would that mean Saturday should be thrown out. However, now it seems that there was more to the change than just the resurrection, but actually, that it was fulfilled and therefore, it ended there.
Precisely. Christ died in the sixth day (the day of man), rested in the tomb in the seventh (the day of rest) and rose in the eighth (the new day).

Oh yeah for sure, when the laws of OT compared to their environment and time, they are not harsh, but for us today, and also for the people during the time of Jesus, they seemed harsh laws. Multiple early Church discussions were around the issue of the God of OT vs, NT. And the Gnostics took it way too far in saying that the God of the Old Testament couldn't possibly be the God of the New Testament.
I believe the thing with early Gnosticism was more about strange mysticism and anthropology finding way in the bosom of the Early Church than about the horror of OT punishments that nurtures neo-Gnosticism. But that's just my guess.

I think he's mostly talking about Marcionism.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.