Author Topic: St. Proclus of Constantinople declares Mary to be created without stain!  (Read 2609 times)

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Offline Xavier

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St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies Mary was created Stainless. "As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He came forth from her contracting no stain." [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B, before A.D. 446] Can Orthodox explain how this does not translate into Mary being altogether sinless and pure just like Jesus? The only difference is He is without stain by His own natural power as God, Mary was created such by His own free gift of grace to His Mother.

There is a long history in the Byzantine Church up to the Middle Ages at least where the Immaculate Conception was at least a legitimate theologoumenon. Patriarch Lukaris asks "as for the Panagia, who does not know that She is an altogether pure and spotless instrument, sanctified in Her conception and birth, as befits One Who is to contain Him whom no place can contain? Doesn't it seem likely belief in Mary's sanctified conception and stainless creation was widespread even in the East even at this late date?
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Offline Iconodule

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St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies Mary was created Stainless. "As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He came forth from her contracting no stain." [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B, before A.D. 446]

Have you read the homily in full? You can do so here. It seems to me the cited passage, in context, has to do primarily with virginity. I say this as someone who doesn't object to the immaculate conception: your citation of this homily to support it is rather farfetched.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Tzimis

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Why is it difficult to believe a woman can remain sinless on her own? She was just around the age of sixteen. I dont see it as to difficult. Im sure there are other children who have come close and may also be sinless as well. As we move through life and age yes we all will eventually sin.

Offline Iconodule

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We can’t even exist on our own, why do you think we can avoid sinning?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Tzimis

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We can’t even exist on our own, why do you think we can avoid sinning?
What does existence have to do with purity of heart in a child. Most children are sheltered by there parents and protected until they start to go free as they age. That innocents is lost when they enter the world and are tempted through the influence of others. A child though is quite innocent until that exposure.

Offline Iconodule

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Existence, purity of heart, and goodness are intertwined and flow together. Sin is a move toward dissolution.The idea that anyone can be pure or good without God’s constant help is as blasphemous as saying we can exist without it.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Tzimis

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Existence, purity of heart, and goodness are intertwined and flow together. Sin is a move toward dissolution.The idea that anyone can be pure or good without God’s constant help is as blasphemous as saying we can exist without it.
We are born with gods image already in us. The conscience is a testament to that.

Offline Antonis

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I don’t understand your point, Xavier. Orthodox don’t disagree with anything you quoted.
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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1. Pick random quote from random source
2. Read 21st century understanding into thousand years old quote
2. Don't read the whole text or the historical context
3. ? ? ?
4. Profit
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 11:20:19 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Rohzek

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We can’t even exist on our own, why do you think we can avoid sinning?
What does existence have to do with purity of heart in a child. Most children are sheltered by there parents and protected until they start to go free as they age. That innocents is lost when they enter the world and are tempted through the influence of others. A child though is quite innocent until that exposure.

Children are perhaps some of the most ruthless and selfish beings on the planet.

Existence, purity of heart, and goodness are intertwined and flow together. Sin is a move toward dissolution.The idea that anyone can be pure or good without God’s constant help is as blasphemous as saying we can exist without it.
We are born with gods image already in us. The conscience is a testament to that.

Right, but God consistently sustains that by being.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 11:34:59 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Quote from: Rohzek

Children are perhaps some of the most ruthless and selfish beings on the planet.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies Mary was created Stainless. "As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He came forth from her contracting no stain." [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B, before A.D. 446] Can Orthodox explain how this does not translate into Mary being altogether sinless and pure just like Jesus? The only difference is He is without stain by His own natural power as God, Mary was created such by His own free gift of grace to His Mother.

There is a long history in the Byzantine Church up to the Middle Ages at least where the Immaculate Conception was at least a legitimate theologoumenon. Patriarch Lukaris asks "as for the Panagia, who does not know that She is an altogether pure and spotless instrument, sanctified in Her conception and birth, as befits One Who is to contain Him whom no place can contain? Doesn't it seem likely belief in Mary's sanctified conception and stainless creation was widespread even in the East even at this late date?

Why don't you spend this much energy and time explaining to us how St. Anna didn't need to be Immaculately Conceived to ensure St. Mary's sinlessness?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?
Sanctus Deus
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Offline Sharbel

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1. Pick random quote from random source
2. Read 21st century understanding into thousand years old quote
2. Don't read the whole text or the historical context
3. ? ? ?
4. Profit
4. Noise

There, fixed it for you.
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Offline biro

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
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Offline Sharbel

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
Are the iniquities and the sins necessarily imputed to David or to the midst where he was conceived and born?
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Offline biro

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Seems pretty clear to me.
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Offline Sharbel

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Seems pretty clear to me.
That from conception man is conceived with a plurality of sins, beyond the Augustinian, single Original Sin?
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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
Are the iniquities and the sins necessarily imputed to David or to the midst where he was conceived and born?

If the Psalm had that kind of content specific to David's circumstances, would it be as usable as the Church's general repentance prayer? I mean, there's nothing about Uriah or Bathsheba or Nathan in there (outside of the header).

I agree that it doesn't really work as a statement about original sin singular, though. Maybe as a general statement about the sin-infested culture and world that we're all born into.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Sharbel

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For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
Are the iniquities and the sins necessarily imputed to David or to the midst where he was conceived and born?
If the Psalm had that kind of content specific to David's circumstances, would it be as usable as the Church's general repentance prayer?...
Methinks so, for most of the other verses are a personal confession of David's sins.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 08:44:00 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline recent convert

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In Ezekiel 18:1-18, esp. verses 10-18 it seems the sins of a parent are not transmitted to the children. I am on an iPhone & at work, posting links is difficult for me.
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For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
Are the iniquities and the sins necessarily imputed to David or to the midst where he was conceived and born?
If the Psalm had that kind of content specific to David's circumstances, would it be as usable as the Church's general repentance prayer?...
Methinks so, for most of the other verses are a personal confession of David's sins.

What? You'd have to walk me through that one. The only line I see that could be read possibly as applying specifically to the murder of Uriah is "Deliver me from blood-guiltiness..."

Everything else seems to me to be fully generalizable to anybody's sin.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Antonis

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?
Why mention it specifically in a homily, then? St. Proclus communicates something significant.

Sure, we do not believe in inherited guilt, but the effects of the fall are still very real. They are genetic, so to speak. Truly, "in sins did my mother conceive me." The Mother of God couldn't have come from just anyone.

Mary's conception was special. We can see this in the icons commemorating it, and it is testified by the fathers. But her purity was not limited only to this event. No, her line was purified starting with the Holy Forefathers, the Tree of Jesse, and it continued to her day where she was conceived in a dispassionate union between two individuals past childbearing age, it was proven in her entrance into the temple, and it was perfected at the Annunciation (happy feast!).
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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1. Pick random quote from random source
2. Read 21st century understanding into thousand years old quote
2. Don't read the whole text or the historical context
3. ? ? ?
4. Profit
5.  Repeat
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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
To me it sounds like he is talking about his mothers sins. Who was David's father?

Offline Porter ODoran

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We can’t even exist on our own, why do you think we can avoid sinning?
What does existence have to do with purity of heart in a child. Most children are sheltered by there parents and protected until they start to go free as they age. That innocents is lost when they enter the world and are tempted through the influence of others. A child though is quite innocent until that exposure.

Children are perhaps some of the most ruthless and selfish beings on the planet.

I certainly hope you don't have any.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
To me it sounds like he is talking about his mothers sins. Who was David's father?

St. Jesse
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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1. Pick random quote from random source
2. Read 21st century understanding into thousand years old quote
2. Don't read the whole text or the historical context
3. ? ? ?
4. Profit

I think you might be overlooking what seems apparent to me, that Xavier lifts his posts from Catholic apologetics books. So he's basically following a handbook on how to attack Orthodoxy, page by page. I'm not saying he's not arranging it into nice paraphrases, and is a literate poster. I'm just saying let's not be that naive.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?
Why mention it specifically in a homily, then? St. Proclus communicates something significant.

Sure, we do not believe in inherited guilt, but the effects of the fall are still very real. They are genetic, so to speak. Truly, "in sins did my mother conceive me." The Mother of God couldn't have come from just anyone.

Mary's conception was special. We can see this in the icons commemorating it, and it is testified by the fathers. But her purity was not limited only to this event. No, her line was purified starting with the Holy Forefathers, the Tree of Jesse, and it continued to her day where she was conceived in a dispassionate union between two individuals past childbearing age, it was proven in her entrance into the temple, and it was perfected at the Annunciation (happy feast!).

How special? And by "purified," what is meant precisely? Please educate me.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Tzimis

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A special grace alleviating her from the guilt of adam and eve's sin.

Offline Tzimis

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
To me it sounds like he is talking about his mothers sins. Who was David's father?

St. Jesse
Thx. I didnt know he was related to Jesus. Acording to wiki he died sinless.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
To me it sounds like he is talking about his mothers sins. Who was David's father?

St. Jesse
Thx. I didnt know he was related to Jesus. Acording to wiki he died sinless.

Meaning what?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Trullo made a few Carthage canons dogmatic and universal and they specifically affirm original sin.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

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Trullo made a few Carthage canons dogmatic and universal and they specifically affirm original sin.

Affirm a phrase translatable as "original sin," for some orthodox dogma, or affirm a dogma identical to the one for which Catholicism uses the label "original sin"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Trullo made a few Carthage canons dogmatic and universal and they specifically affirm original sin.

Affirm a phrase translatable as "original sin," for some orthodox dogma, or affirm a dogma identical to the one for which Catholicism uses the label "original sin"?

Canons 109 to 113 of Trullo under the Carthaginian/African canons are probably what he is referring to. See: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.cx.html for your own interest.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Trullo made a few Carthage canons dogmatic and universal and they specifically affirm original sin.

Affirm a phrase translatable as "original sin," for some orthodox dogma, or affirm a dogma identical to the one for which Catholicism uses the label "original sin"?

Canons 109 to 113 of Trullo under the Carthaginian/African canons are probably what he is referring to. See: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.cx.html for your own interest.

Quote
That whosoever says that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body -- that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity, let him be anathema.

That's it?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Seems so.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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There are more linking the necessity of infant baptism to original sin
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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There are more linking the necessity of infant baptism to original sin

Which ones?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 01:45:19 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Hawkeye

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There are more linking the necessity of infant baptism to original sin

Which ones?

I think he has in mind the following canon, Canon 110:

Quote
Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema.

For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.  For on account of this rule of faith (regulam fidei) even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Online augustin717

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There are more linking the necessity of infant baptism to original sin

Which ones?

I think he has in mind the following canon, Canon 110:

Quote
Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema.

For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.  For on account of this rule of faith (regulam fidei) even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration.
thanks. I have them in a Romanian book called "The Canons of the Orthodox Church" 
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Volnutt

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Every human being ever conceived was created without stain.  Your point?

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
To me it sounds like he is talking about his mothers sins. Who was David's father?

St. Jesse
Thx. I didnt know he was related to Jesus. Acording to wiki he died sinless.

Meaning what?

I don't know if it's something that ever passed into Christian tradition, but the Talmud says:

Quote
Four died through the serpent's machinations, Benjamin the son of Jacob, Amram the father of Moses, Jesse the father of David, and Caleb the son of David. Now, all are known by tradition, save Jesse the father of David, in whose case the Writ gives an explicit intimation. For it is written, And Absalom set Amasa over the host instead of Joab. Now Amasa was the son of a man whose name was Ithra the Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.6 Now, was she the daughter of Nahash? Surely she was the daughter of Jesse, for it is written, and their sisters were Zeruiah and Abigail?7 Hence it must mean, the daughter of one who died through the machinations of the nahash [serpent].8 Who is [the author of this]? Shall we say, the Tanna [who taught] about the ministering angels? — Surely there were Moses and Aaron too! Hence it must surely be R. Simeon b. Eleazar, which proves that there is death without sin and suffering without iniquity. Thus the refutation of R. Ammi is [indeed] a refutation.

The same tract also seems to say that Moses & Aaron, Reuben, and even Phineas & Hophni were all sinless too (with some convoluted exegesis of the Scriptures that would seem to indicate the opposite for each). It's a strange read and kind of hard for me to understand.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 02:43:59 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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There are more linking the necessity of infant baptism to original sin

Which ones?

I think he has in mind the following canon, Canon 110:

Quote
Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema.

For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.  For on account of this rule of faith (regulam fidei) even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration.

Sounds just like the Catholic idea ca. Trent.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Really? You must've got some ketchup or mustard on there. haha
The Sign and Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Offline Iconodule

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For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5
Are the iniquities and the sins necessarily imputed to David or to the midst where he was conceived and born?
If the Psalm had that kind of content specific to David's circumstances, would it be as usable as the Church's general repentance prayer?...
Methinks so, for most of the other verses are a personal confession of David's sins.

What? You'd have to walk me through that one. The only line I see that could be read possibly as applying specifically to the murder of Uriah is "Deliver me from blood-guiltiness..."

Everything else seems to me to be fully generalizable to anybody's sin.

Saint Maximus interprets this line as referring primarily to the sinfulness of sexual desire, a mark of the fall like corruption/mortality. Saint Gregory Palamas say something similar in Homily 43:
What is the starting point of our coming into the world? Is it not almost the same as for irrational animals? Actually it is worse, because the procreation of animals did not originate from sin, whereas in our case it was disobedience that brought in marriage. That is why we receive regeneration through holy baptism, which cuts away the veil which covers us from our conception. For although marriage, as a concession from God, is blameless, yet our nature still bears the tokens of blameworthy events. For that reason one of our holy theologians calls human procreation, "nocturnal, servile, and subject to passion", and before him David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”