Author Topic: Jews view to old testament and the christian view  (Read 414 times)

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Offline youssef

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Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« on: March 20, 2018, 07:20:29 AM »
I was seeing that the Jews interpretation to old testament is so different then our christian interpretation. Even in the traduction of the old testament there is some different. I was reading the arabic traduction of Rabbi Saadia Gaon and comparing it to arabic christian traduction.
What interpretation make more sense depending to the text. Did the christian try to explain the text from outside the text and give it some meaning that they are not really in the original text.



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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2018, 08:45:34 AM »
I was seeing that the Jews interpretation to old testament is so different then our christian interpretation. Even in the traduction of the old testament there is some different. I was reading the arabic traduction of Rabbi Saadia Gaon and comparing it to arabic christian traduction.
What interpretation make more sense depending to the text. Did the christian try to explain the text from outside the text and give it some meaning that they are not really in the original text.

What we think of as "objective exegesis" or "taking the text literally" was not always first in the priorities of a 1st Century Rabbi (and not just Rabbis, Plato allegorized the heck out of Greek mythology). Compare the arguments in Ephesians 4 to the passages that St. Paul is quoting. Compare Matthew 2:15 to Hosea 11:1.

It's not that the meaning is not in the original text, it's that the Holy Spirit inspires a reading of it that wouldn't normally occur to natural reasoning.

One of my new favorite examples of one of the really extreme versions of this. From St. Gregory the Dialogist:

Quote
However, not only is the flesh of the lamb not to be eaten raw, it is not to be cooked in water either. (Ex. 12:9) Now what does water here signify, if not human thinking, of the sort described through Solomon, who says, speaking of heretics: "Stolen waters are sweeter" (Prov. 9:17)? Thus our Redeemer must neither be considered to be only a man, nor, when we ask in what way God was able to become man, is he to be reflected on through purely human thinking. Everyone, indeed, who believes our Redeemer to be simply a man, does nothing other than eat the flesh of the lamb raw, and refuses to cook it, as it were, by understanding his divinity. Everyone, on the other hand, who attempts to discuss the mystery of his becoming man, through purely human thought, is trying to cook the flesh of the lamb in water. That is, he is trying to penetrate the mystery of this divine process by the kind of thought which, like boiling, dissolves what it cooks. The person, therefore, who wishes to celebrate the joy of Easter with due solemnity, eats the flesh roasted by fire (Ex. 12:8). In this way he may come to understand how everything is ordered, not through human thought, but through the burning power of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning this mystery, the text adds, "You shall devour the head, with the feet and the intestines." (Ex. 12:9) For our Redeemer is the Alpha and the Omega, that is, he is God from before all ages and now, at the end of time, he is also man. And as we have already said, dear friends, we learn through the testimony of Paul that "the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). Therefore, to devour the head of the lamb is to accept his divinity, through faith. To devour the feet, however, means to follow in the tracks of his humanity, by loving and imitating him. But what are the intestines? Surely they are the hidden and spiritual commands contained in his words. These we devour when we avidly consume the words of life. Does this term "devouring" rebuke our apathy and laziness? For we do not inquire into his words and mysteries ourselves, and we are reluctant to listen to his teachings from others.

"None of it shall remain till the morning" (Ex. 12:11). That is, we are to study his teaching assiduously until the day of the Resurrection dawns. In the night of this present life, we are to enter into all his commandments, by understanding them and by following them. But since it is extremely difficult to understand every sacred word, and to penetrate every one of his mysteries, the text adds: "If anything is left over, it is burnt on the first" (Ex. 12:11). We burn what is left of hte lamb when we humbly entrust to the power of the Holy Spirit whatever we cannot understand about the mystery of Christ becoming man. Thus whoever hears this mystery proclaimed will not arrogantly despise or reject what he does not understand. Instead he will cast it into the fire by entrusting it to the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:46:17 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2018, 12:32:03 PM »
Translation is always something problematic, needing to go through a cultural lens, specially for ancient religious texts.
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Offline rakovsky

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
I was seeing that the Jews interpretation to old testament is so different then our christian interpretation. Even in the traduction of the old testament there is some different. I was reading the arabic traduction of Rabbi Saadia Gaon and comparing it to arabic christian traduction.
What interpretation make more sense depending to the text. Did the christian try to explain the text from outside the text and give it some meaning that they are not really in the original text.
Christians and Jews both recognize that there can be 4 layers of meaning and interpretation in the text, like pshat or plain meaning and the allegorical meaning.

This is called PARDES. SEE THIS ARTICLE:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)

So for example the story of Jonah outwardly appears to be about an ancient prophet getting swallowed by a fish and preaching to Nineveh. But it could really have an inner meaning of the Messiah getting killed and of the gospel being preached to Rome or the gentiles.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2018, 08:03:28 PM »
I was seeing that the Jews interpretation to old testament is so different then our christian interpretation. Even in the traduction of the old testament there is some different. I was reading the arabic traduction of Rabbi Saadia Gaon and comparing it to arabic christian traduction.
What interpretation make more sense depending to the text. Did the christian try to explain the text from outside the text and give it some meaning that they are not really in the original text.
Christians and Jews both recognize that there can be 4 layers of meaning and interpretation in the text, like pshat or plain meaning and the allegorical meaning.

This is called PARDES. SEE THIS ARTICLE:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)

So for example the story of Jonah outwardly appears to be about an ancient prophet getting swallowed by a fish and preaching to Nineveh. But it could really have an inner meaning of the Messiah getting killed and of the gospel being preached to Rome or the gentiles.

+1
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 08:28:57 AM »
[...]
So for example the story of Jonah outwardly appears to be about an ancient prophet getting swallowed by a fish and preaching to Nineveh. But it could really have an inner meaning of the Messiah getting killed and of the gospel being preached to Rome or the gentiles.

I think you put your finger on one of the main reasons Christian and Jewish interpretations of the OT differ there. Christians read from Christ's resurrection back into the OT finding clues to demonstrate that Jesus is the messiah. Jewish scholars don't.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:34:15 AM by FinnJames »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 10:37:12 AM »
Not to mention that Jonah being swallowed by leviathan adds in lots of layers by mixing mythological archetypes into the story. That being the case, often times a plain or literal meaning seems itself to be gesturing toward deeper elements.

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 01:26:45 PM »
Some Jews claim Christ as almost valid but not definitive.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+jewish+gospels+boyari&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS725US725&oq=the+jewish+gospels+boyari&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.15141j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#wptab=s:H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLRT9c3NErKjS_IMil7xOjJLfDyxz1hKYdJa05eY7Ti4grOyC93zSvJLKkU0uFig7KUuASkUDRqMEjxcaGI8OxiEnDKz8_2zS9Kdap0LC3JyC8CAJkp8AxvAAAA
Please explain what you mean.

In his book: The Jewish Gospels, Daniel Boyarin claims many Jews immediately r ecognised Christ as their Messiah and the Son of God. He argues that Christ actually upheld the law of Moses against innovators like the Pharisees. Boyarin is not a modern Messianic Jew and does not believe in the divinity of Christ. He respects Christ and believes an allegedly purer Jewish faith was cooped by the Roman Empire
.Strangely, he believes the theology of the Nicene Creed is actually a sect of Judaism. I do not agree of course, but it is curious.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 01:27:18 PM by recent convert »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Jews view to old testament and the christian view
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 06:44:00 PM »
Some Jews claim Christ as almost valid but not definitive.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+jewish+gospels+boyari&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS725US725&oq=the+jewish+gospels+boyari&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.15141j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#wptab=s:H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLRT9c3NErKjS_IMil7xOjJLfDyxz1hKYdJa05eY7Ti4grOyC93zSvJLKkU0uFig7KUuASkUDRqMEjxcaGI8OxiEnDKz8_2zS9Kdap0LC3JyC8CAJkp8AxvAAAA
Please explain what you mean.

In his book: The Jewish Gospels, Daniel Boyarin claims many Jews immediately r ecognised Christ as their Messiah and the Son of God. He argues that Christ actually upheld the law of Moses against innovators like the Pharisees. Boyarin is not a modern Messianic Jew and does not believe in the divinity of Christ. He respects Christ and believes an allegedly purer Jewish faith was cooped by the Roman Empire
.Strangely, he believes the theology of the Nicene Creed is actually a sect of Judaism. I do not agree of course, but it is curious.

I've seen a few garden variety Protestants refer to the RCC as "Judaizers" (though presumably for not accepting sola fide). Maybe this is a similar principle.


Boyarin sounds like essentially a modern day Ebionite. Fascinating.
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