Author Topic: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish  (Read 601 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« on: March 18, 2018, 02:21:51 PM »
Since St. Patrick's Day was a couple of days ago.

Quote
On March 23, 1847, a group of Choctaw leaders and others met in eastern Oklahoma to raise money for “the relief of the starving poor in Ireland.” They collected $170, which was sent first to the Memphis Irish Relief Committee, then to the General Irish Relief Committee of the City of New York. This gift from an American Indian nation was recognized as extraordinary even at that time; the chairman of the New York committee mentioned it specifically in reports to the Central Relief Committee in Ireland.

This week, at the beginning of a St. Patrick’s Day visit to the United States, the Irish head of state visited Oklahoma to thank the Choctaw Nation and announce an Irish scholarship program for Choctaw youth. It is not the first time the Irish have remembered the Choctaws’ extending their hand. In 1992 a group of Irish men and women walked the 600-mile Trail of Tears, raising $170,000 to relieve suffering in famine-stricken Somalia—$1,000 for every dollar donated by the Choctaw people in 1847. Last year a Choctaw delegation took part in the dedication of Kindred Spirits, a sculpture commissioned by the people of County Cork to commemorate the Choctaws’ kindness. “These people were still recovering from their own injustice, and they put their hands in their pockets and they helped strangers,” County Councilman Joe McCarthy pointed out at the ceremony. “It’s rare to see such generosity. It had to be acknowledged.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/blogs/national-museum-american-indian/2018/03/16/choctaw-nations-gift-irish/
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Offline biro

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 02:26:28 PM »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 02:49:47 PM »
That's touching!  :)  Another curious allegiance of the Irish in the same period was that of the Saint Patrick's Batallion. It was a pro-Mexican batallion during the Mexican-American War formed mostly by deserted Irish-American soldiers who wouldn't fight to take land from other Catholics.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 02:59:20 PM »
That's touching!  :)  Another curious allegiance of the Irish in the same period was that of the Saint Patrick's Batallion. It was a pro-Mexican batallion during the Mexican-American War formed mostly by deserted Irish-American soldiers who wouldn't fight to take land from other Catholics.

Oh, wow. I didn't know that!
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 09:23:47 PM »
I never knew the indians did that, very touching.

If anyone is interested here's the truth about the Irish "potato famine".

http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 10:33:41 PM »
I never knew the indians did that, very touching.

If anyone is interested here's the truth about the Irish "potato famine".

http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup

I don't think anybody denies that English mismanagement pretty much caused the entire problem. Any modern book about Irish history will tell you so.

Hanlon's Razor tells us that stupidity (including a remarkably misguided application of laissez faire) and casual racism are better causes of the mismanagement than some conspiracy, though.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 10:37:34 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 10:37:44 PM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 12:35:11 AM »
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 12:39:05 AM »
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 03:27:04 AM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 06:56:40 PM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html


Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 07:59:19 PM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html

Ok, I've read the link now. Still skeptical about parts of it because 1. It reads like IRA propaganda at points and 2. You endorse it. But it does give me material to look into further, so thanks for that.

I knew about the Food Removal, and the restriction of Irish to only being able to plant potatoes for their own use which made the blight such a disaster, yes. But I'm not sure I can call that a "Holocaust" which is a word with very specific modern connotations tied to the systematic exterminations done by the Nazis.

To reiterate, I don't deny that many in England wanted to see the Irish dead but I tend to think of a "Holocaust" as more direct than that or even what Churchill did to the Indians. To emphasize, I don't hold the British as "innocent" more like "criminally negligent" or "willfully ignorant" and unwilling to give the Irish more than the barest scrapes and hope that they choked on them. It's a fine distinction, but one I think is important given the connotations of the term Holocaust.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2018, 10:41:32 PM »
As much wrong as the IRA did (was the British army any better anyway, generally? I think not...), one starts to understand how they came to be after finding out how Catholic Irishmen were often treated amid Protestant majorities well into the XX century. So facts that sound IRA-ish may be just... well, facts.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 10:45:44 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 11:03:55 PM »
As much wrong as the IRA did (was the British army any better anyway, generally? I think not...), one starts to understand how they came to be after finding out how Catholic Irishmen were often treated amid Protestant majorities well into the XX century. So facts that sound IRA-ish may be just... well, facts.

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just Mr. Golden Mean Fallacy. I'm automatically suspicious of all sources that sound too one-sided.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 12:48:18 AM »
Well, this works sometimes.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 07:12:15 AM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html

Ok, I've read the link now. Still skeptical about parts of it because... 2. You endorse it.

I apologize for this. I try to avoid conspiracy theory type sources as a general rule of "epistemic hygiene" and I've seen that those are sources that you seem to favor on here.

Still, this tone was beneath me. Sorry.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 11:43:49 AM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html

Ok, I've read the link now. Still skeptical about parts of it because... 2. You endorse it.

I apologize for this. I try to avoid conspiracy theory type sources as a general rule of "epistemic hygiene" and I've seen that those are sources that you seem to favor on here.

Still, this tone was beneath me. Sorry.

None taken, I'm used to it.

I know i come off like a nut sometimes, but waking up to the realization that ive been lied to my whole life by mainstream history, made me research for myself various topics. Since i have some irish blood in me, i looked into the great exodus that brought my kin to the good ol usa.
 
http://prospect.org/article/why-real-story-irish-exodus-america-isnt-taught-schools

Very little is taught about it in american schools
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:48:51 AM by Rubricnigel »

Offline Agabus

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 12:59:57 PM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html

Ok, I've read the link now. Still skeptical about parts of it because 1. It reads like IRA propaganda at points and 2. You endorse it. But it does give me material to look into further, so thanks for that.

I knew about the Food Removal, and the restriction of Irish to only being able to plant potatoes for their own use which made the blight such a disaster, yes. But I'm not sure I can call that a "Holocaust" which is a word with very specific modern connotations tied to the systematic exterminations done by the Nazis.

To reiterate, I don't deny that many in England wanted to see the Irish dead but I tend to think of a "Holocaust" as more direct than that or even what Churchill did to the Indians. To emphasize, I don't hold the British as "innocent" more like "criminally negligent" or "willfully ignorant" and unwilling to give the Irish more than the barest scrapes and hope that they choked on them. It's a fine distinction, but one I think is important given the connotations of the term Holocaust.

So maybe just a less well-organized genocide?

"Unwilling to give the Irish more than the barest scrapes and hope that they choked on them" isn't negligence. It's malice. 

Through the quirks of history, my people managed to avoid the famine by (likely) getting evicted from the country before it started.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 01:00:48 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Choctaw Nation’s Gift to the Irish
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2018, 06:40:37 PM »
Carelessness is a form of malice.
The English had been pursuing an Irish genocide on-and-off since the Norman invasion. The famine was not even remotely innocent.
They clearly didn't really give up even after the famine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been glad to see the Irish just all drop dead even to the extent that they would drag their feet on helping them. A cursory glance at Nigel's link seems to be saying something more, though.

But then, I haven't looked at it deeply.

My link is simply saying that the systematic starving of the Irish was intentional, not some potato blight modern history tells us. To the fellow who thinks it was just mismanagement, did you read the link? Do you know the british record of starvation on the lesser of its subjects?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html

Ok, I've read the link now. Still skeptical about parts of it because 1. It reads like IRA propaganda at points and 2. You endorse it. But it does give me material to look into further, so thanks for that.

I knew about the Food Removal, and the restriction of Irish to only being able to plant potatoes for their own use which made the blight such a disaster, yes. But I'm not sure I can call that a "Holocaust" which is a word with very specific modern connotations tied to the systematic exterminations done by the Nazis.

To reiterate, I don't deny that many in England wanted to see the Irish dead but I tend to think of a "Holocaust" as more direct than that or even what Churchill did to the Indians. To emphasize, I don't hold the British as "innocent" more like "criminally negligent" or "willfully ignorant" and unwilling to give the Irish more than the barest scrapes and hope that they choked on them. It's a fine distinction, but one I think is important given the connotations of the term Holocaust.

So maybe just a less well-organized genocide?

"Unwilling to give the Irish more than the barest scrapes and hope that they choked on them" isn't negligence. It's malice. 

Through the quirks of history, my people managed to avoid the famine by (likely) getting evicted from the country before it started.

Yeah, you're probably right. I split hairs too much.
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