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djrak
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« on: October 10, 2005, 04:27:04 PM »

I know this is a very controversial topic. I would like to first say that i believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, healing etc...
I know the orthodox church used to practice this and some still do
I dont agree with most of what pentacostals teach, but the gifts are from God and they are for the edification of the church.
I believe many orthodox churches are paralyzed because of the lack of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.


My question is how many of you share the same conviction and wether you have/ practice any gifts. Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 09:03:04 PM »

Quote

I believe many orthodox churches are paralyzed because of the lack of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

My question is how many of you share the same conviction and wether you have/ practice any gifts.

I strongly disagree with both of your assertions.

Every time you receive the Eucharist; every time you worship in Spirit and in Truth; every time you experience the incomparable and transcendant joy of prayer, you are given the greatest of all gifts.

IMO, the problem is that like those journeying to Emmaus, you are not recognizing that which is in front of you.
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 09:16:07 PM »

Re: speaking in tongues.

AFAIK, I think that there are NO documented cases (i.e. stories of the Fathers/Saints/etc.) of speaking in Tongues after the time of the Apostles.  Therefore, anything you may hear of in this age, should be immediately suspect at best and of the Devil at worst no matter how sincere the person may appear to be.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 09:17:32 PM »

Speaking in tongues = speaking foreign languages. the context of the NT is pretty clear on this.
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icxn
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 10:05:07 PM »

Also,

Speaking in tongues = Prayer of the Heart (cf Archiman. Aimilianos of Simonopetra)

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one hears him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. (1 Cor. 14:2)
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 11:46:13 PM »

I know this is a very controversial topic. I would like to first say that i believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, healing etc...
I know the orthodox church used to practice this and some still do
I dont agree with most of what pentacostals teach, but the gifts are from God and they are for the edification of the church.
I believe many orthodox churches are paralyzed because of the lack of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

My question is how many of you share the same conviction and wether you have/ practice any gifts. Thank you.

Well, I think my answer to the final question is that I don't think many here agree with the way you speak of the "gifts of the Spirit..." I think I'd have to assert that the Church does see the gifts of the Spirit, just not in the way that the NT might make you think of them (which is why you always interpret the scripture in the context of the Church)... The example has already been provided by icxn as one example; but even in others, where you have holy men and women who have been given the gift of being able to learn language (along Anastasios' point) - take, for example, my bishop (hey, I like the guy, that's why I bring him up a lot), who has learned 7+ languages...

So in this kind of spirit I think you can still see the gifts of the Spirit at work in the Church; but none of these gifts even compares to the gift of unity with the Son of God which we partake in Holy Communion (a unity that also draws us into communion with one another).
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djrak
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 01:26:03 AM »

I used to think just like you having escaped from a pentecostal church and found my rest in orthodoxy and the treasure of the Eucharist. It's just that one doesnt negate the other and i know many orthodox priests who pray in tongues during mass. And it's on the island of Atos i think (not sure) where orthodox monks still worship the Lord this way.

Your replies did not surprise me. God is showing me to be a child in front of Him and receive His gifts as they come, with a open and grateful heart.

My initial post wasnt only concerning tongues but also interpreting, healing, and prophecies.

I found Christ's Church in Orthodoxy but my mind turned it to a trap for me so that i dont get closer to God, but now God is setting me free of my mind and its traps. I used to be a full on seeker of His love and presence, The Eucharist without faith is not communion, and faith without love is not faith and His love is so gentle that once i block it with theories and theologies and things of the mind while worshipping it doesnt give its 100%.

Anyway that's what's been going on with me u dont have to agree i was just checking.
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 02:14:01 AM »

A bit over twenty or thirty years ago a couple of young Greek women brought a friend of theirs, a young French woman, to see Elder Porphyrios. Initially both Greek women stayed in the room with her, one of them translating the French woman's questions into Greek and  the Elder's answers into French. After a little while though, Elder Porphyrios sent the woman who was translating out of the room while allowing the other, who didn't speak French, to remain a little longer. For the time that she remained in the room she heard the woman speaking in French and Elder Porphyrios responding in Greek. After that, the Elder sent her too out of the room and spoke with the French woman alone. When she finally came out she scolded her friends for having told her that the Elder could not speak French, since from the time the first woman had been sent out, Elder Porphyrios had spoken to her in fluent French. The second woman however was witness to the fact that Elder Porphyrios had spoken only in Greek the whole time she was in there. Elder Porphyrios explained later to the two women that while the French woman spoke only in French, he heard all her responses in Greek.

I believe this is what the gift of speaking in tongues entails, with the Holy Spirit enabling both parties, the speakers and the hearers. I suspect that if only one half of the equation is there, ie. if there are no "hearers" included in the gifting, that the "gift" may indeed be suspect, hence Pauls exhortation that if no one is there to interpret then those speaking in tongues should be silent.

John
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Stamfordguy
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 10:24:05 AM »

Is this one of those apocryphal stories or did it actually happen?

I find the idea of speaking in tongues strange to say the least. I can understand why the gift was given at Pentecost but today? For what purpose? We have the Word translated into almost every language in the world. There doesn't appear to be any legitimate need for it. As for people actually speaking in tongues (as in the above story) and being understood in a language they'd never learned before... I guess this is where my faith is sorely tested. I'm not saying it is false. Please, dont' misunderstand me. But I'm skeptical. It's like the many stories we read in the Prologue. Surely we're not to take all of these stories in a literal sense (i.e. men floating on rocks across the Mediterranean... a monk carried on the back of a demon from Moscow to Jerusalem so that he could celebrate Pascha in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre). Anyway... these stories don't increase my faith but if anything they tend to weaken it.  Sad
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icxn
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 11:06:38 AM »

Elder Porphyrios died the last decade and the people who relate these things about him are still alive.

I like the story of his spiritual son who called him and after the Elder told him the solution to his problem - as always, before the other had the chance to actually ask for it - and the son promised to visit him as soon as he had some free time and the Elder said:

- No don't visit me... I died... click!!!

Comment: The Elder had died a few days earlier... I guess they have phones in... Heaven. Smiley

icxn
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2005, 11:23:59 AM »

Yeah - miracles shattered my faith too.  My faith in Deism that is. 

Μακαριος Γεροντα ÃŽÂ ορφυριε, πρεσβευε υπερ ημων! 
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Stamfordguy
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2005, 11:31:53 AM »

Elder Porphyrios died the last decade and the people who relate these things about him are still alive.

I like the story of his spiritual son who called him and after the Elder told him the solution to his problem - as always, before the other had the chance to actually ask for it - and the son promised to visit him as soon as he had some free time and the Elder said:

- No don't visit me... I died... click!!!

Comment: The Elder had died a few days earlier... I guess they have phones in... Heaven. Smiley

icxn

Well... we have the same sort of apocryphal stories told by fundamentalist Protestants and Roman Catholics.. particularly of the stigmatist nature. Again... I'm not saying I disbelieve but I do tend to chalk much of this up to exaggeration by followers who believe they are advancing the cause.
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Stamfordguy
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2005, 11:37:46 AM »

Well... we have the same sort of apocryphal stories told by fundamentalist Protestants and Roman Catholics.. particularly of the stigmatist nature. Again... I'm not saying I disbelieve but I do tend to chalk much of this up to exaggeration by followers who believe they are advancing the cause.

Well... that's interesting and I'm happy for you. I grew up a Christian and have always had faith in miracles. But I tend to dismiss men floating on rocks and carried on the backs of demons (including the above related stories) as hagiography carried to the extreme. I know that there's a blurred line in Orthodoxy between cultural superstitions and the actual faith. There are stories related about a particular schema-nun who had this sort of foresight... and I tend to believe this. BUT when it comes to her other pronouncements... that we should not have our pictures taken since the essence of who we are is then captured by others... or that we should remain indoors from noon until 2 p.m. since demons tend to roam about during the noon hours... I dismiss this as medieval nonsene. I know that some old world Orthodox burn crosses in their doorwells with their Paschal candles to keep out evil spirits. The problem with this is... I have't noticed that these people are any more spiritual or behave in a more loving manner than those who do not do such things.

Bottom line I suppose is: if it's working for you... great. For me... I remain a bit of a skeptic.
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icxn
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2005, 11:44:37 AM »

Guilessness is a virtue.
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Stamfordguy
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2005, 11:48:03 AM »

No argument there. Then again, so is cleanliness.   Smiley

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aserb
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2005, 12:12:13 PM »

I believe that many strange and wonderful things happen and I believe by faith. I have noticed though, that in charismatic/pentacostal circles, that the belief in gifts/miracles tends to overshadow the more important matters of Christiainity, i.e. love, patience, etc. So, I am not for encouraging these so called charismatic practices; yet, I believe that they occur.  What's my point. I don't kniow. I just wanted to state my opinion.
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djrak
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2005, 02:38:59 PM »

I believe that many strange and wonderful things happen and I believe by faith. I have noticed though, that in charismatic/pentacostal circles, that the belief in gifts/miracles tends to overshadow the more important matters of Christiainity, i.e. love, patience, etc. So, I am not for encouraging these so called charismatic practices; yet, I believe that they occur.ÂÂ  What's my point. I don't kniow. I just wanted to state my opinion.
hey aserb, how's it goin there brother, i feel you and agree with you. But I now beleive that the gifts are for today if practiced in an orthodox way. They are gifts from God and we shouldnt ignore them or say that they are from the devil. Why is it so hard to beleive ? I know pentecostals have some twisted teachings but our Lord is doing this to tell the orthodox to wake up and return to Him and repent from politics and disputes concerning fame and glory in the Church. HE is the only one who has to be worshipped and HE tells us how to do it. WE HAVE TO SEEK HIM IN SPIRIT!
Praised be His name cos He is patient
Praised be His name cos He is faithful
Praised be His name cos He is generous
Praised be His name cos He is who He is
Praised be His Holy name nnow and forever amen!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 02:42:28 PM by djrak » Logged

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