Author Topic: Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia Visits Pope Tawadros II & the Coptic Cathedral  (Read 1239 times)

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Offline theorthodoxchurch

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Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman of Saudi Arabia Visits Pope Tawadros II and the Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in Cairo
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/crown-prince-mohammad-bin-salman-of-saudi-arabia-visits-pope-tawadros-ii-and-the-coptic-orthodox-cathedral-in-cairo/
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Offline Alpha60

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I would be even more impressed if he invited Pope Tawadros II to tour the grand mosque in Mecca, as the first step towards definitively ending persecution of Christians in Saudi, but still, good.   Very respectful.

In any case I expect the experience of loving Coptic hospitality will make a hugely positive impression in the Crown Prince and be a spiritual blessing for him which we will in turn benefit from.

This is not to say I support automatically inviting all anti-Christian rulers in to our holy places; it depends on context.  For example, I supported the Athonite monasteries who bravely banded together to veto the invitation of the Greek PM last year, because the Greek PM seems bent on introducing new hindrances for the Orthodox in Greece, and pursuing an agenda of secularization, whereas conversely this Crown Prince is the heir to an extremely anti-Christian regime who has himself as far as we know not done anything to further the already horrid persecution of Christians in the Saudi kingdom, but conversely, could be positively influenced by interactions such as these to reform the laws in Saudi Arabia to legalize Christianity, and we should pray this is what happens.

Thank you Georgy for keeping us informed as always.  :)
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Offline minasoliman

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Normally, I treat these stories as just a formality, but Bin Salman has been an intriguing man.  I’m more interested in what he does more than my own Pope...lol
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Offline Iconodule

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So far I see no reason from MBS’ behavior to be optimistic about him. His hamfisted attempt to foment civil war in Lebanon last year, for instance.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:42:33 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline minasoliman

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Old habits die hard, at the same time...

Considering the fact that he is also behind the reforms for women in Saudi Arabia, that he is ending the Wali system, the undermining of the Wahhabist culture of his nation and the clerics that sustain such a culture, and his interest in Da Vinci's painting at such a price all make me wonder about this guy.

Is he really a "moderate" Muslim?  Is he going to liberalize Saudi Arabia?  Will he allow freedom of other religions to practice openly in his country (you need a tyrant to do that in any Islamic country by the way)?  Is there anything going on in his mind regarding a possible break with his religion?

Yea, he's still a tyrant.  That's a Saud family tradition.  He still does things in the region to destabilize what he feels is a threat to his kingdom.  But I wonder what other plans he has that seems to break tradition with his predecessors.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:02:24 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline minasoliman

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Maybe he's visiting the cathedral to see if he can build a bigger one for us in his land :P  8) and then put Da Vinci's painting as an icon for veneration...

one can only dream
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:10:04 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline juliogb

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Will he allow freedom of other religions to practice openly in his country (you need a tyrant to do that in any Islamic country by the way)?

That's the impression I have, religion freedom only exists in muslim majority countries if there is a secular dictator in office, usually similar to the baathist party.

Concerning the visit of the prince from KSA to Pope Tawadros, I hope this meeting works as the begining of the end for wahhabism and their conections with terrorism.

Offline minasoliman

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In case one wonders the cathedral MBS visited, this is a new Coptic Cathedral build by President Sisi and his army as a gift to the Church and to Egypt for their new administrative capital

Never mind...I just realized that he visited the original cathedral of St. Mark, not the new one
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:25:33 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Old habits die hard, at the same time...

Considering the fact that he is also behind the reforms for women in Saudi Arabia, that he is ending the Wali system, the undermining of the Wahhabist culture of his nation and the clerics that sustain such a culture, and his interest in Da Vinci's painting at such a price all make me wonder about this guy.

Is he really a "moderate" Muslim?  Is he going to liberalize Saudi Arabia?  Will he allow freedom of other religions to practice openly in his country (you need a tyrant to do that in any Islamic country by the way)?  Is there anything going on in his mind regarding a possible break with his religion?

Yea, he's still a tyrant.  That's a Saud family tradition.  He still does things in the region to destabilize what he feels is a threat to his kingdom.  But I wonder what other plans he has that seems to break tradition with his predecessors.

I have similar questions and thoughs.

In case one wonders the cathedral MBS visited, this is a new Coptic Cathedral build by President Sisi and his army as a gift to the Church and to Egypt for their new administrative capital

Never mind...I just realized that he visited the original cathedral of St. Mark, not the new one
I didn't know that a new Coptic cathedral will be built! :)



BTW, I'm impressed by fusha of the pope Tawadros; maybe it's a superstition, but I tend to think that Egyptians are generally bad at MSA.
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Offline minasoliman

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Oh yea, the new cathedral is almost done.  The Pope celebrated the inaugural liturgy there on the Nativity, January 7, 2018.

As for MSA, we Egyptians actually tend to pride ourselves with perfect MSA of those who are educated in Arabic literature.  Yea, we also have our colloquial Arabic, but our MSA is spot on.  Try to listen to the late Pope Shenouda’s videos, and you’ll be even more impressed
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 02:15:02 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Iconodule

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MBS has been relentlessly hyped by western media as a “reformer” (look, he’s letting women drive, what a courageous feminist!) but there is zero substance to this. A Saudi prince splurging on expensive antique  art is hardly an earth-shaking event. Forget the bootlicking puff pieces by Tom Friedman and other pseudo-journalists. Look what these disgusting creep are doing to Yemen. Look at their shady deals with Israel and the Trumps and their attempts to isolate Iran and destroy Lebanon.. Never forget what they have done to Syria. I will not cease pouring cold water on this PR nonsense.

Please not get into politics in Christian News section.
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« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 03:30:30 PM by Dominika »
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Offline minasoliman

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There’s plenty of cold water to pour around everyone, especially in that region.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Iconodule

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There’s plenty of cold water to pour around everyone, especially in that region.

We’re talking about Saudi Arabia, the nerve center of world Wahhabism, not to mention one of the loudest voices dictating US foreign policy. This is not just another problem in the Middle East. These are the guys making the problems happen.
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There’s plenty of cold water to pour around everyone, especially in that region.

We’re talking about Saudi Arabia, the nerve center of world Wahhabism, not to mention one of the loudest voices dictating US foreign policy. This is not just another problem in the Middle East. These are the guys making the problems happen.

Yeah, I agree, I find quite disturbing a coptic pope meeting this a prince from a country that promotes terrorism and infiltrates wahhabi radicalism worldwide since the 70s (before maybe?).

Quite funny how the mainstream media neglects saudi crimes in Yemen and all the terrorists funded by them.

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I’m not going to fault Pope Tawadros for the meeting- he needs help wherever he can find it, I guess. He could afford to snub Pence- and kudos to him for that- but the Saudis, maybe not so much. But let’s not inflate this into something it’s not. If MBS gets some veneer of tolerance from this meeting without any substantive action behind it, then he’s the only one who really benefits.
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In case one wonders the cathedral MBS visited, this is a new Coptic Cathedral build by President Sisi and his army as a gift to the Church and to Egypt for their new administrative capital

Never mind...I just realized that he visited the original cathedral of St. Mark, not the new one

Isnt there also a Coptic St. Mark’s Cathedral in Alexandria?  I like the new cathedral in the capital is named for the Holy Trinity.  Out of curiosity, in Egypt, are there any very large cathedrals dedicated to Sts. Athanasius, Cyril or Dioscorus?
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Yes, there is.

The new cathedral is named the Cathedral of the Nativity of Christ.

None that I know of to your third question.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 05:09:40 PM by minasoliman »
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Old habits die hard, at the same time...

Considering the fact that he is also behind the reforms for women in Saudi Arabia, that he is ending the Wali system, the undermining of the Wahhabist culture of his nation and the clerics that sustain such a culture, and his interest in Da Vinci's painting at such a price all make me wonder about this guy.

Is he really a "moderate" Muslim?  Is he going to liberalize Saudi Arabia?  Will he allow freedom of other religions to practice openly in his country (you need a tyrant to do that in any Islamic country by the way)?  Is there anything going on in his mind regarding a possible break with his religion?

Yea, he's still a tyrant.  That's a Saud family tradition.  He still does things in the region to destabilize what he feels is a threat to his kingdom.  But I wonder what other plans he has that seems to break tradition with his predecessors.
I'm optimistic about him too, as I'm optimistic when moderate cartels take over harsher ones in turf wars, but it's still optimism. As Alpha said, sure Tsipras is someone an Orthodox Christian would much rather live under than bin Salman, but as for changing or following tendencies, a Saudi prince rumoured to allow an Orthodox church in his territory is good news, while a Greek unbaptised PM who cuts budget for the Orthodox Church is bad.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 06:29:19 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Iconodule

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Can we get real please? Currently Shia Muslims in Saudi Arabia get arrested for trying to celebrate Ashura in public, and even Sunnis get arrested for committing "shirk" by praying at, e.g., the tomb of Fatima. If the Saudis allow a church to be built in their country- and that's a mighty big "if"- it will be a walled-off Potemkin church like the one in North Korea.
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Offline RaphaCam

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As we say down here, hope is the last one dead! Anyway, there's a huge number of Christians in Saudi Arabia waiting to be properly served, specially foreigners (but definitely less than in the EAU), I don't think anyone is expecting to make the Saudi kingdom a Fourth Rome.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 06:53:13 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline juliogb

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As we say down here, hope is the last one dead! Anyway, there's a huge number of Christians in Saudi Arabia waiting to be properly served, specially foreigners (but definitely less than in the EAU), I don't think anyone is expecting to make the Saudi kingdom a Fourth Rome.

Are you using the portuguese acronym for United Arab Emirates?

As far as I know there is a significant christian community in the UAE and Qatar, specially indian christians, malankara orthodox, mar thoma and catholic, and also coptics, armenians and antiochian orthodox as well.


Photo taken in the St. Thomas malankara orthodox church.

Offline RaphaCam

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As we say down here, hope is the last one dead! Anyway, there's a huge number of Christians in Saudi Arabia waiting to be properly served, specially foreigners (but definitely less than in the EAU), I don't think anyone is expecting to make the Saudi kingdom a Fourth Rome.

Are you using the portuguese acronym for United Arab Emirates?

As far as I know there is a significant christian community in the UAE and Qatar, specially indian christians, malankara orthodox, mar thoma and catholic, and also coptics, armenians and antiochian orthodox as well.


Photo taken in the St. Thomas malankara orthodox church.

Yeah, I meant the UAE. A guy from my parish has his son working there, worshipping with his family in a Russian parish.
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So it looks like, as many people suspected, MBS' "reform" and "anti-corruption" postures are basically fig leaves for a straightforward thuggish power/cash grab. The main surprise, for me, is that the NYT is breaking the story.
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