Author Topic: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?  (Read 2032 times)

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Offline Mercurius1

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Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« on: February 22, 2018, 11:16:35 AM »
I read an article that I thought was pretty interesting, the apparent conversion of Muslims in Turkey converting to Orthodoxy. How prevalent is this?



http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/11/contemporary-orthodox-turks/

Offline Apostolos

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 12:23:28 PM »
Many Turks in western Turkey (the parts closer to the Greek isles) and Istanbul, are clearly islamized Byzantines and Armenians. Every year on April 23 (st. George's day) the monastery of st. George Koudounas on Prinkepos, one of the Prince islands, built by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phocas, is packed with tens of thousands of pilgrims, from Istanbul, Izmir and other cities, who come to venerate the Great Martyr and to seek help in their problems. 90% of these pilgrims are Muslims who come to pay their respect to Aziz Corce (st. George), light candles (!!!), venerate the icon of the saint (!!!), and receive blessings from the Orthodox priests:



St. Paisios has prophesied that "the time will come that those candles that are now lit beneath the earth (meaning in secret by the crypto-christians in Turkey), will be lit above"
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:24:17 PM by Apostolos »
Ἦχος Πρῶτος

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Πρώτην νέμει σοὶ τάξιν, ὦ τῆς ἀξίας
Ἦχος ὁ πρῶτος μουσική κληθείς τέχνη
Πρῶτος παρ'ἡμῶν εὐλογείσθω τοῖς λόγοις.
Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
Πρωτεῖα νίκης πανταχοῦ πάντων ἔχεις.

Offline juliogb

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 12:41:15 PM »
If someone missed it, the Divine Liturgy in turkish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXLR6FbitE

I find turkish language really, Id love to hear more chants sung in turkish.

Offline Mercurius1

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 06:09:01 PM »
Many Turks in western Turkey (the parts closer to the Greek isles) and Istanbul, are clearly islamized Byzantines and Armenians. Every year on April 23 (st. George's day) the monastery of st. George Koudounas on Prinkepos, one of the Prince islands, built by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phocas, is packed with tens of thousands of pilgrims, from Istanbul, Izmir and other cities, who come to venerate the Great Martyr and to seek help in their problems. 90% of these pilgrims are Muslims who come to pay their respect to Aziz Corce (st. George), light candles (!!!), venerate the icon of the saint (!!!), and receive blessings from the Orthodox priests:



St. Paisios has prophesied that "the time will come that those candles that are now lit beneath the earth (meaning in secret by the crypto-christians in Turkey), will be lit above"

I actually just read up on that story. That was awesome. What is preventing them from actually becoming Christian and Orthodox?

Offline Mercurius1

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 06:09:37 PM »
If someone missed it, the Divine Liturgy in turkish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXLR6FbitE

I find turkish language really, Id love to hear more chants sung in turkish.

Is the DL ever served in Turkish in the Patriarchate of Alexandria?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 07:32:16 PM »
I actually just read up on that story. That was awesome. What is preventing them from actually becoming Christian and Orthodox?

I'd imagine it's some combination of social pressure and the syncretic belief that they don't really need to.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 07:36:27 PM »
This is religious syncretism, it would be great if they managed to swing it to the Christian stratum.

Is the DL ever served in Turkish in the Patriarchate of Alexandria?
Alexandria, I doubt so, there are just very few Turks in Africa, let alone Orthodox. I'm aware the Patriarchate of Antioch prays the Divine Liturgy in Turkish, it has a small part of Turkey under its jurisdiction, but I'm almost sure the Patriarchate of Constantinople (which has most of Turkey) doesn't. There's a small schismatic group, the Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate, that prays in Turkish.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 07:45:23 PM »
How did that schism happen, do you know?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 11:32:40 PM »
Look up for "Papa Eftim I".
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 12:59:38 AM »
Look up for "Papa Eftim I".
that's my grandpa's name
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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 01:08:13 AM »
Look up for "Papa Eftim I".

Ok. Thanks.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 03:09:32 AM »
Look up for "Papa Eftim I".
that's my grandpa's name
So you're kinda famous in a Turkish sense?
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Offline Apostolos

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 06:51:18 AM »
...
I actually just read up on that story. That was awesome. What is preventing them from actually becoming Christian and Orthodox?
Social pressure mostly and the decline of Turkish society into islamic fundamentalism after Erdogan and his ruling islamic party were elected. Many Turks who seeked their ancestry and found out that their ancestry is Christian (either Greek or Armenian) have reverted to Christianity. Some of them, pressured by society or even their kin (they stopped any contact with them as according to the Quran they're apostates, an offence punishable by death) have emigrated to Greece or W. Europe. A couple of years ago there was a documentary aired here, about the personal story of a Muslim Turk from the Black Sea who found out he was not an ethnic Turk (his native language was Romeika i.e. Pontian Greek) but a Pontian Greek, and reverted to Orthodox Christianity. He is now imprisoned by the regime for being an activist condemning the Turkish oppression against minorities in the country.     
This is religious syncretism, it would be great if they managed to swing it to the Christian stratum.
Most of them are Alevi (known as Alawites in the Arab world) who have many Christian beliefs (God is a triad, they observe Christian feasts, venerate st. George and st. Mary Magdalene). Perhaps they are the 1/3 of the Turks that according to ss Kosmas the Aetolian & Paisios will eventually become Christians?
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Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 07:37:13 AM »
Quote
Most of them are Alevi (known as Alawites in the Arab world)

Alevis aren't the same as the Alawites, which are called Nusayris in Turkish. They're closer to the Bektashis in Albania.

Anywhere you go in the Middle East, though, where there are Christian shrines, you have substantial numbers of Muslims of all denominations visiting them. It's a significant part of folk religion in the region.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 08:27:34 AM »
I remember visiting the Panagia Blachernae church in Istanbul and seeing a Muslim woman there getting water from the sacred spring and chatting with the deacon. This happens all the time apparently. I also heard that some Turks believe that only an Orthodox priest can lift the curse of the evil eye.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:35:56 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 08:29:08 AM »
Quote
Most of them are Alevi (known as Alawites in the Arab world)

Alevis aren't the same as the Alawites, which are called Nusayris in Turkish. They're closer to the Bektashis in Albania.

Anywhere you go in the Middle East, though, where there are Christian shrines, you have substantial numbers of Muslims of all denominations visiting them. It's a significant part of folk religion in the region.
Alevis & Alawites are not the same? I thought they were the same, or at least pretty similar. Yes, I know about the Albanian bektashis, Albanian muslims have radicalized very recently with Saudi money. Weren't most Ottoman elite members, Alevi?
Ἦχος Πρῶτος

Τέχνη μελουργός, σούς ἀγασθεῖσα κρότους
Πρώτην νέμει σοὶ τάξιν, ὦ τῆς ἀξίας
Ἦχος ὁ πρῶτος μουσική κληθείς τέχνη
Πρῶτος παρ'ἡμῶν εὐλογείσθω τοῖς λόγοις.
Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
Πρωτεῖα νίκης πανταχοῦ πάντων ἔχεις.

Offline juliogb

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 10:06:56 AM »
Quote
Most of them are Alevi (known as Alawites in the Arab world)

Alevis aren't the same as the Alawites, which are called Nusayris in Turkish. They're closer to the Bektashis in Albania.

Anywhere you go in the Middle East, though, where there are Christian shrines, you have substantial numbers of Muslims of all denominations visiting them. It's a significant part of folk religion in the region.
Alevis & Alawites are not the same? I thought they were the same, or at least pretty similar. Yes, I know about the Albanian bektashis, Albanian muslims have radicalized very recently with Saudi money. Weren't most Ottoman elite members, Alevi?


As far as I know alevis and alawites have similar roots, but are slightly diferent, both have some sort of ''trinitarian'' vision of Allah, both are some sort of fringe shi'a islam, have a lot reverence for Imam Ali and Hoseyn and have some sort of iconography, however, if I am not mistaken alevis have some influence of pre-islamic turkic religions (tengriism maybe?), their mosques have a similar shape of a yurt and they perform dances in their services, that are similar to sufi ones.

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2018, 11:09:34 AM »
I met a Turkish woman who converted to Orthodoxy in order to marry.  She approached a group of us on the ferry from Halki (Heybeliada) to The City.  Her child had been baptized at the Patriarchate.  Her conversion seemed genuine (i.e. she was a practicing Orthodox Christian, not nominal).

I also had conversations with a few Muslims on the boat who were sympathetic to the plight of the Christians in Turkey - felt that the persecutions and ongoing pressure were wrong, that the grey wolves (and other anti-Christian groups) should be banned, etc.

I've also been to St. George's on Prinkepos (Buyukada), which was a very moving experience.  We weren't there for the feast, so we didn't see the pilgrimage, but the guide from the Patriarchate mentioned that they have so many pilgrims that you can barely make it halfway up the 2.2km incline to see the Church on the feastday.  (Btw, for those who don't like walking up inclines, pay a little $$ and have a donkey take you up.  We walked, and I'm glad I did, but I was in much better shape back then.)

Who knows.  The way the Christians conduct themselves in Turkey is, in my limited experience, above reproach.  They do what they can to be good citizens of both the earthly and heavenly realms.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:12:34 AM by Fr. George »
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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 01:17:16 PM »
Many Turks in western Turkey (the parts closer to the Greek isles) and Istanbul, are clearly islamized Byzantines and Armenians. Every year on April 23 (st. George's day) the monastery of st. George Koudounas on Prinkepos, one of the Prince islands, built by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phocas, is packed with tens of thousands of pilgrims, from Istanbul, Izmir and other cities, who come to venerate the Great Martyr and to seek help in their problems. 90% of these pilgrims are Muslims who come to pay their respect to Aziz Corce (st. George), light candles (!!!), venerate the icon of the saint (!!!), and receive blessings from the Orthodox priests:



Saint George is also very venerated by Bosnian Muslims (so, in the past, Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats, but having been islamised by Turks), many of them celebrate his feastday. I think it's also true for Bulgarian Muslims.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 02:07:01 PM »
St. George's cult in the balkans and Asia Minor probably goes past Christianity to the Thracian Horseman.
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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 08:54:41 PM »
Many Turks in western Turkey (the parts closer to the Greek isles) and Istanbul, are clearly islamized Byzantines and Armenians. Every year on April 23 (st. George's day) the monastery of st. George Koudounas on Prinkepos, one of the Prince islands, built by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phocas, is packed with tens of thousands of pilgrims, from Istanbul, Izmir and other cities, who come to venerate the Great Martyr and to seek help in their problems. 90% of these pilgrims are Muslims who come to pay their respect to Aziz Corce (st. George), light candles (!!!), venerate the icon of the saint (!!!), and receive blessings from the Orthodox priests:



Saint George is also very venerated by Bosnian Muslims (so, in the past, Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats, but having been islamised by Turks), many of them celebrate his feastday. I think it's also true for Bulgarian Muslims.
Aren't Bosnian Muslims alleged descendants of the Babuni i.e. the Bogomils who were exiled by the Bulgarian Tsar Peter to the western Balkans?
Ἦχος Πρῶτος

Τέχνη μελουργός, σούς ἀγασθεῖσα κρότους
Πρώτην νέμει σοὶ τάξιν, ὦ τῆς ἀξίας
Ἦχος ὁ πρῶτος μουσική κληθείς τέχνη
Πρῶτος παρ'ἡμῶν εὐλογείσθω τοῖς λόγοις.
Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
Πρωτεῖα νίκης πανταχοῦ πάντων ἔχεις.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2018, 09:06:54 PM »
St. George's cult in the balkans and Asia Minor probably goes past Christianity to the Thracian Horseman.

It's definitely possible.
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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 05:27:03 AM »
Many Turks in western Turkey (the parts closer to the Greek isles) and Istanbul, are clearly islamized Byzantines and Armenians. Every year on April 23 (st. George's day) the monastery of st. George Koudounas on Prinkepos, one of the Prince islands, built by the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phocas, is packed with tens of thousands of pilgrims, from Istanbul, Izmir and other cities, who come to venerate the Great Martyr and to seek help in their problems. 90% of these pilgrims are Muslims who come to pay their respect to Aziz Corce (st. George), light candles (!!!), venerate the icon of the saint (!!!), and receive blessings from the Orthodox priests:

Saint George is also very venerated by Bosnian Muslims (so, in the past, Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats, but having been islamised by Turks), many of them celebrate his feastday. I think it's also true for Bulgarian Muslims.
Aren't Bosnian Muslims alleged descendants of the Babuni i.e. the Bogomils who were exiled by the Bulgarian Tsar Peter to the western Balkans?
Maybe some of them, but I wouldn't say that would be a majority.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2018, 04:40:19 PM »
St. George's cult in the balkans and Asia Minor probably goes past Christianity to the Thracian Horseman.

I had no idea! Thanks for that information. Very fascinating, and the iconographic posture is almost identical.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 04:41:25 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Conversion of Turks to Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 07:21:54 AM »
St. George's cult in the balkans and Asia Minor probably goes past Christianity to the Thracian Horseman.

I had no idea! Thanks for that information. Very fascinating, and the iconographic posture is almost identical.

Yeah, that's true.  Atributes of the Thracian Horseman have been "added" to Saint George, a great martyr warrior, so the result is his great popularity, also among Middle Eastern Christians.
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