Author Topic: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"  (Read 2366 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2018, 10:18:22 PM »
I guess because you're Protestant, you see it that way. I've never been, so I don't.

I don't see how the same reasoning can't be used in the RCC section where both Xavier and Wandile have been admonished recently. And while YMMV as to where the line between argument and proselytism is, I just don't see Pastor David as being anywhere near a reasonable one.

I still think he's wrong, and I think you are. But I'm done wasting my time.

I disagree with his views too, but there's no rule against being wrong on the Internet.
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2018, 10:36:54 PM »
Be cool, everybody.

I guess because you're Protestant, you see it that way. I've never been, so I don't.

I don't see how the same reasoning can't be used in the RCC section where both Xavier and Wandile have been admonished recently. And while YMMV as to where the line between argument and proselytism is, I just don't see Pastor David as being anywhere near a reasonable one.

I'll allow it. He's not proselytizing or telling people to leave the faith. The forum allows light polemics, and all he's really said is, "I think you're wrong on this issue."
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2018, 12:42:06 AM »
Protestants didnt ban art, they banned art intended for religious use. You can paint the passion and emotionally relate to it but you cant pray to christ in front of the painting because the Christ in the painting becomes an idol. 

I know a bunch of calvinists who are painters and illustrators whove painted christ, they would never venerate it for the reasons above.

The problem is this.'
To be an idol means to worship it. To worship means to believe it is God.
In front of a important person you can kneel, you can stay in 2 feets, one feet, in your hands. You can recite poetry prayers and so on . As long as the person in front of you you dont consider God you are not worshiping it and it is not an idol.
Same for icons.In front of icons you can do anyting you want including prayer. If you dont consider icons as being God they are not idols and you are not worshipping them.
So orthodox don't believe icons to be God. So orthodox don't worship icons. So orthodox icons are not idols.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 12:55:33 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2018, 12:45:44 AM »
This is my opinion as always.
Protestants I believe threw to the garbage the Church history and church history shows us Jesus made an icon and sent it to King Abgar that become cured by receiving icon. He venerated icon and icon was in front of russian troops for hundreds of years.
Search google for  "Abgar icon Jesus". So Jesus not wrong ALWAYS so icon not wrong and veneration not wrong.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2018, 01:22:41 AM »
Te problem I am having is not using icons. Th e problem I am having is relying on the icons to transmit truth and orthodox Christianity message in the 20th century when EVERYBODY is on facebook, smart phones, instagram social media, TV, cinema. EVERYBODY but cristianity and Eastern orthodox Christianity is on facebook, smart phones, instagram social media, TV, cinema that is why christianity is becoming less and less relevant.
The Bible that I am having tells me that Aeropagus was a pagan place a place where everybody was. Being a pagan place did not stop Apostle Paul to go there and say the Christian message and save people.

I am almost sure Apostle Paul would have no issue in going to Facebook, smart phone, instagram. whats app, make a star wars movie in which the characters would pray before the meal, get baptised an d say something on this line in the 20 th century false religion and denomination were in existence but in 21th century we asked God which religion is true and to teach us religion and God showed us the Eastern orthodox Christianity is the true religion and this is why in 30th century we are all Eastern orthodox Christians.

I can see a movie in which there are 3 people, one budhism , one muslim and one Eastern orthodox Christian and their ;life and afterlife when budhist becomes a cow or a worm, muslim goes to Hell not being baptised and Eastern orthodox Christian to Heaven to 365000 years party with God.

I can not imagine monastery or theological seminary in 21 century without facebook presence, instagram, cinema, tv , movie. I can not imagine monastery or theological seminary in the 21 century without doing social marketing, advertising at superbowl.

Wherever people are , church and monasteries and theological seminaries should be to save them and to transmit christian message. Yes there is temptation on these media but temptation was in the books.

If social marketing has the potential to put 10% of population run like horses and improve their health for 60+ years why it has not potential to send 20% of people to church to be saved for eternity.

If one movie Star Wars has the potential to convert 5% of people to budhism that gives you the chance to become subhuman like a cow or a worm why not an eastern orthodox STAR WARS movie that give you possibility to be immortal and go to Heaven to 20% of people.

This is my opinion.

Ya there is EasterN orthodox TV but so boring unbelievable. No animation for children. Not movies with saints. Nothing exciting. Ratings tell the story.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:34:08 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2018, 01:41:42 AM »
Facebook, smart phones, instagram social media, TV, cinema, Star Wars, social marketing IS THE PRINTING PRESS FOR 21th CENTURY.

I can not imagine monastery or theological seminary in 21 century without facebook presence, instagram, cinema, tv , movie. I can not imagine monastery or theological seminary in the 21 century without doing social marketing, advertising at superbowl or wherever people are the same way I cannot imagine them NOT using painting that was relevant 300 years ago or NOT using printing press that was relevant 100 years ago.

I can not imagine EasterN Orthodox Christianity NOT going after people and technology and remaining in papyrus age. We should modify nothing from the time of entering to church to the time of exiting the church but the message can be transmited on every media possible.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:55:03 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2018, 01:47:12 AM »
There's a little like this from the Greeks, https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbyQMR-_r8bJTrcWpWxSUPdJHdZJsq_zG

And a lot of Concilliar Press's output from the Antiochians. The Copts also have a lot of movies (of varying quality)  of lives of the Saints. Then there's other movies like Ostrov or the Jesus Prayer documentary.


My concern with such things (especially dramatized) is that the rush to "relevance" or being appealing to as many as possible does not dilute or dumb down the message. But really, this is a topic better suited for a new thread.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2018, 01:47:26 PM »
So to clarify with idols.
You can stay 10 miles away from something or somebody, do not do prayer near it or him , no kneeling and be upset at it but as long as you consider it to be a God , it or he is an idol in case he is not God.
Anything you believe to be God and it is not God it is an idol. Believing to be God means worship.Request or prayer is not worship if it is not addressed to God and if you don't believe the one the prayer is addressed to to be God.
So idol is about what you believe NOT about what you do.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:48:12 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
2) I wonder whether this whole thread has the question back to front, or at least starts in the middle not at the beginning. I would rather ask the question, where all the accretions come from that now æsthetically adorn Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Not when did we lose them, but when did you gain them.


Pastor David, I think this perspective might presume a minimalism that's not necessarily a given. For example, what archaeologists have found in the Dura-Europos synagogue, in the Roman catacombs from the first several centuries, etc. indicate that at least plenty of Jews and Christians were accustomed to holy personages and biblical stories being on frescoes adorning the walls of their worship spaces. These paintings themselves don't necessarily have to be "ornate" in the sense of opulent gold or something. They would stand out in comparison with a Baptist church because of all of the color.

So in that regard I would consider the images of Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the saints in and around Orthodox and Catholic churches to be a natural extension of this. I realize the question becomes more complex when dealing with statuary, gold-gilding of various items, precious metals for the vessels for communion, and other such things. But on a basic level we see something that full-blown iconoclasm can't reconcile with their own views; that many forms of early Christianity and Judaism didn't take issue with the frescoes that are so common in the apostolic churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_synagogue



« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:45:49 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2018, 04:40:07 PM »
This is my opinion.So the pictures above clearly show PROTESTANT RENOUNCED to icons not orthodox added icons and pictures. orthodox christians kept the true faith. Since early christians prayed in these Churches  with pictures on walls shows clearly prayer in front of icons and pictures OK so Protestants wrong again in my opinion.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:40:49 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2018, 10:59:34 AM »
It is very simple for people that have faith in GOd.
When people ask which denomination is true God shows Eastern orthodox Christianity to be true.
If you have faith you accept what God shows.
If you dont have faith you have to try to prove God wrong. I think is  a waste of time to try to prove God wrong.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 11:00:04 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Nicodemusz138

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2018, 02:51:20 PM »
Among Presbyterians, it stems from sola scriptura, covenant theology and zwingli. the New testament didnt institute icons and liturgy, so those are man made traditions to be avoided. which is why there is only baptism and the lords supper, ...

Three comments briefly, then it's time to put on my minimalist smart suit and tie and go and preach at the equally minimalist Baptist chapel in Penycae! -

1) I think this post comes near the truth, though not only regarding Presbyterians; and I don't think that covenant theology or a Zwinglian view of the 'ordinances' comes into it, for one could have those with an ornate building.

2) I wonder whether this whole thread has the question back to front, or at least starts in the middle not at the beginning. I would rather ask the question, where all the accretions come from that now æsthetically adorn Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Not when did we lose them, but when did you gain them.

3) The person who posted the lovely photographs earlier in the thread has a good point; nonetheless, both my wife and I like visiting the simple chapels one often finds in Greece, often in remote places, and many of them we do not find religiously off-putting or offensive. Nonetheless, for me at least - and this may be nothing more than culture and personality - I find a simple and if possible old church (anything from 150 to 1500 years) more conducive to prayer, worship and spiritual meditation than an ornate one.

I believe it was I, Pastor Young!, heh.
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Offline David Young

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2018, 05:28:46 PM »
It's not polite to go to someone else's house and say that it's ugly.

Nor have I done so. I have said that certain types of church building are more pleasing to me æsthetically, and are more likely to move me to pray. I have felt some Orthodox churches in Greece conducive to prayer in that way, and have prayed in them, not least St Peter's at Kenipolis which is probably the oldest among them, but very ornate Orthodox, Catholic or Anglican churches leave me untouched at the religious level. On the other hand, a small, simple Baptist or Methodist chapel from maybe 160 years ago or more, where men and women have earnestly sought God's forgiveness and holiness, often does have that effect on me.

I have not said the highly ornate churches are "ugly": I have said they fail to inspire me at the spiritual level. As my wife enjoys visiting them, we have visited enough for me to know that this is a constant in my response to my surroundings.
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2018, 06:33:04 PM »
It's not polite to go to someone else's house and say that it's ugly.

Nor have I done so. I have said that certain types of church building are more pleasing to me æsthetically, and are more likely to move me to pray. I have felt some Orthodox churches in Greece conducive to prayer in that way, and have prayed in them, not least St Peter's at Kenipolis which is probably the oldest among them, but very ornate Orthodox, Catholic or Anglican churches leave me untouched at the religious level. On the other hand, a small, simple Baptist or Methodist chapel from maybe 160 years ago or more, where men and women have earnestly sought God's forgiveness and holiness, often does have that effect on me.

I have not said the highly ornate churches are "ugly": I have said they fail to inspire me at the spiritual level. As my wife enjoys visiting them, we have visited enough for me to know that this is a constant in my response to my surroundings.

I understand this impulse. I love to find old churches in the mountains and go in to pray.

My own preference is for the sort of simple Orthodox chapel in which I was introduced the faith — lots of wood tones with a smooth, six-panel iconostasis and a number of mounted icons around the walls, though there is more wall than icon so it's not visually distracting. I also prefer lots of natural light.

But I can pray in ornate churches, too, and spent a lot of time meditating in the gothic Catholic basilica in my former city of residence.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 06:33:33 PM by Agabus »
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Offline walterturkey

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 08:54:14 PM »
I think the word worship is used broadly, encompassongly, one of the  issues examined at last years general assembly was over the use of a picture of Jesus on the church bulletin, or service bulletin

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2018, 09:34:12 PM »
I think the word worship is used broadly, encompassongly, one of the  issues examined at last years general assembly was over the use of a picture of Jesus on the church bulletin, or service bulletin

Were the objections to a picture of Jesus per se, or that it was a picture of Jesus on a disposable piece of paper?

The latter sometimes comes up even in Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:35:01 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline David Young

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2018, 05:20:06 AM »
My own preference is for the sort of simple Orthodox chapel

Quite! Last year, for me, it was Agios Ioannis, at the top entrance to the Rouvas Gorge (walked to from above Zaros). (Ever since the forum was upgraded I no longer seem able to attach photographs, or I'd add one here.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 05:20:24 AM by David Young »
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Offline juliogb

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2018, 10:01:49 AM »
I went to a presbyterian church once that was quite ornated for protestant brazilian standards, a big wooden cross and stained glass with christian symbols like the Paschal Lamb, the Chi Ro, Alpha and Omega, the Ark of Noah, Bread and Wine...lovely chappel and conducive to prayer, it really looks like a place in wich something special and transcendent is happening, but it is an exception in Brazil, most of protestant churches in Brazil are quite boring aesthetically.

The orthodox churches in Brazil are quite simple as well, not too ornated, the oldest orthodox building in Brazil is quite curious tho, it is located in a commercial street in a quite decandent part of downtown São Paulo, it is literaly shoved inside a commercial building.

Inside:


Outside:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nSylKLMRlb8/WcAhCD9aUgI/AAAAAAAAi0c/JWtIpR1bLXAOcESHMW4xRtXz3FK8wsgGQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_20170825_105806165_HDR.jpg

Some years ago an abandoned methodist chappel was bought and transformed into a greek orthodox parish.



Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2018, 08:59:29 PM »
I found this article via an old thread. It's an interesting Orthodox Critique of Philip Schaff and John Nevin's 19th Century "Mercersberg Theology." It was an attempt to make American Calvinism (I could post in the "ITT: Calvinism" thread to the same effect) as High Church and Sacramental as possible.

Obviously from an Orthodox standpoint, their work was very incomplete (as the author of the article points out). But for my purposes, he also points out the development of Puritanism:

Quote
While Nevin and Schaff’s catholic evangelicalism has caught the attention of scholars, their dispute with “Puritanism” is just as significant.  “Puritanism” was a low church movement that emphasized salvation as an emotional experience, the sacrament as purely symbolic, and the individual interpretation of the Bible.  “Puritanism” (#10) was part of a broad movement — the subjective turn — that altered American religious life radically. (#11)  As Americans crossed the Appalachians they left behind the constraints and institutions of urban life.  In this new environment novel forms of belief and religious life emerged; an understanding emerged that saw the spiritual as inward and subjective — “heart felt.”

The subjective turn was a consequential religious paradigm shift.  It led to the view that faith in Christ must be a conscious personal experience.  It caused people to question the adequacy of faithful church attendance and the catechetical process without a salvation experience.  Similarly, it led to the rejection of infant baptism in favor of adult baptism.  This subjective emphasis spread through the revivalist movement popularized by Charles Finney.  Revivalism was the view that to be saved one needed an emotional experience of salvation.  To facilitate this the “anxious bench” was created in which people with a troubled conscience would go up, sit down, and request prayer for their salvation.  This would later evolve into the modern altar call popularized by Billy Graham.  This outlook swept through the Presbyterian churches in eastern Pennsylvania and the Ohio valley.  Nevin wrote The Anxious Bench (1843) in which he criticized the importance placed on emotionalism and defended churchly Christianity in the form of creeds and catechetical instruction, and the efficacy of the sacraments, e.g., infant baptism.

The subjective turn impacted church life as well.  Men were ordained on the basis of their oratorical skills or their charismatic personalities without any approval by church authorities.  Preachers were free to promulgate new doctrines unchecked by creeds or church authorities, and people were free to join whatever church body they found to their liking.  New interpretations of the Bible surfaced resulting in a profusion of denominations, and ironically even to anti-denominational groups as well.  Out of this confusion emerged the slogan: “No creed but the Bible.”  The subjective turn transformed America’s religious landscape.  In addition to giving rise to new forms of Protestantism, it gave rise to new religious groups that went beyond the boundaries of Christianity: the Jehovah Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Latter Day Saints (Mormons).  Nevin and Schaff’s attempts to counter the influence of “Puritanism” in the Reformed churches must be viewed against this broader social context.

Now NicholasMyra's posts above are making me wonder to what extent Puritanism might actually be related to Bogomilism.
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2018, 12:11:13 AM »
thanks for sharing.
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2018, 12:12:01 AM »
No prob.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
Quote
I found this article via an old thread. It's an interesting Orthodox Critique of Philip Schaff and John Nevin's 19th Century "Mercersberg Theology." It was an attempt to make American Calvinism (I could post in the "ITT: Calvinism" thread to the same effect) as High Church and Sacramental as possible.

Obviously from an Orthodox standpoint, their work was very incomplete (as the author of the article points out). But for my purposes, he also points out the development of Puritanism:

I'd like to see this debate reaching the theological circles in my country.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2018, 03:37:40 PM »
Quote
I found this article via an old thread. It's an interesting Orthodox Critique of Philip Schaff and John Nevin's 19th Century "Mercersberg Theology." It was an attempt to make American Calvinism (I could post in the "ITT: Calvinism" thread to the same effect) as High Church and Sacramental as possible.

Obviously from an Orthodox standpoint, their work was very incomplete (as the author of the article points out). But for my purposes, he also points out the development of Puritanism:

I'd like to see this debate reaching the theological circles in my country.

Well, I don't know how much a "debate" it is anymore. Mercersberg was in the mid-1800s and I think American Calvinists pretty much rejected all of its tendencies when they condemned the Federal Vision (or at least swept it under the rug, see up-thread).

Maybe it could do more good in Brazil since it's not as much of knee-jerk Romophobic society?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2018, 03:56:45 PM »
Its pretty simple. Protestantism is a practice of taking the the power away from the church and instilling it to the individual.  Nothing more. If individuals feel they have the power to transform under there own pride. Than let them be.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2018, 12:57:18 PM »
Its pretty simple. Protestantism is a practice of taking the the power away from the church and instilling it to the individual.  Nothing more. If individuals feel they have the power to transform under there own pride. Than let them be.

In the process it takes away from individual probably immortality and other gifts God put in his perfect Church made by perfect God Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 12:57:52 PM by pasadi97 »
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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2018, 04:43:07 PM »
Its pretty simple. Protestantism is a practice of taking the the power away from the church and instilling it to the individual.  Nothing more. If individuals feel they have the power to transform under there own pride. Than let them be.

Well, sure. But I was just interested in tracing the genealogy of the specific forms such individualism took. Even very individualistic beliefs are still ideas passed down from person to person, whether directly or indirectly.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2018, 09:24:48 PM »
Its pretty simple. Protestantism is a practice of taking the the power away from the church and instilling it to the individual.  Nothing more. If individuals feel they have the power to transform under there own pride. Than let them be.

Well, sure. But I was just interested in tracing the genealogy of the specific forms such individualism took. Even very individualistic beliefs are still ideas passed down from person to person, whether directly or indirectly.


   Most, if not all genealogy leads to the source of a schism of sorts.
 Certain people that have the power to steer the future into a direction of there visions. Fully know what they are trying to achieve. Weakness or vulnerability in there opponents is when they strike.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2018, 09:40:14 PM »
Its pretty simple. Protestantism is a practice of taking the the power away from the church and instilling it to the individual.  Nothing more. If individuals feel they have the power to transform under there own pride. Than let them be.

Well, sure. But I was just interested in tracing the genealogy of the specific forms such individualism took. Even very individualistic beliefs are still ideas passed down from person to person, whether directly or indirectly.



   Most, if not all genealogy leads to the source of a schism of sorts.
 Certain people that have the power to steer the future into a direction of there visions. Fully know what they are trying to achieve. Weakness or vulnerability in there opponents is when they strike.

Seems a tad uncharitable to me. I'd rather chalk it up to just simple human error.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 09:40:47 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2018, 04:08:07 AM »
I actually just ordered a copy of Gabriel Audisio's The Waldensian Dissent: Persecution and Survival, c.1170-c.1570 for only 16 dollars! Thank God for Barnes and Noble secondary sellers. ;D


Now watch every source in the bibliography be in untranslated French lol...
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline maneki_neko

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Re: The origins of "Protestant minimalism?"
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2018, 06:06:51 AM »
The fact that the first Christians worshiped in the Jerusalem Temple and then in the synagogues until they were kicked out (I guess we could also talk about Eusebius's account of James and John dressing like Jewish priests, though it's not of guaranteed provenance) is highly significant to me. So is the fact that Gnosticism and Doceticism were there from the beginning as anti-matter (no pun intended) thought movements. It makes it seem more likely to me that the service of the first century was, if not recognizably Orthodox or Catholic, at least what we would call High Church and that the problematic accretions in history could just as easily have gone in the other direction

Not that I'm necessarily saying that the First Century Church had icons or something, but that such things wouldn't be completely at odds with their attitudes. I really don't think they were Baptists.
+1

I say it's not pragmatic.  Why can't someone pray in front of a visual representation of anything regarding Christianity without being accused of idolatry, but one can pray in front of a blank wall, a door, a kitchen table, or their Bible and it's fine?  It sounds like the argument is that one is inherently idolatry because it depicts Christian things, and therefore one must avoid it at all costs.  As in, you can pray anywhere in your house, except near the picture of Jesus hanging in the dining room.  God doesn't exist right there, apparently.   :-\
+2

2. As I recall, Persson and yesh were warned for crossing the line into outright proselytism or for being rude (I haven't seen Pastor David do either of those things), not for making Protestant arguments.

Saying that Orthodox stuff is "made up" is about the only claim one can honestly make if they want to continue to be Baptist and not Orthodox. He's just responding to the thread with what he believes. If he can't be allowed to do that, then what's this section even for?
+1

I found this article via an old thread. It's an interesting Orthodox Critique of Philip Schaff and John Nevin's 19th Century "Mercersberg Theology." It was an attempt to make American Calvinism (I could post in the "ITT: Calvinism" thread to the same effect) as High Church and Sacramental as possible.
I'm in the middle of reading this book right now. Very interesting. It's the closest I've read to a reasonable argument for remaining as some form of Protestant (in my view it still falls quite short of Orthodoxy, but B+ for actual effort). What I've read so far leaves me really feeling empathetic for John Nevin.
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