Author Topic: Why I remain an Evangelical  (Read 5537 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #135 on: June 04, 2018, 11:43:03 PM »
Yeah, but I'm saying that a martyr like St. Porphyrios didn't exactly have a lot of time for the slow, lifelong march towards perfection. Yet he was saved.
I hope you aren't implying that people who recite a few sentences are equal to martyrs.

Sorry, just saw this. He was killed for his faith when he refused to recant what he'd said.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2018, 11:49:46 PM »
Yeah, but I'm saying that a martyr like St. Porphyrios didn't exactly have a lot of time for the slow, lifelong march towards perfection. Yet he was saved.
I hope you aren't implying that people who recite a few sentences are equal to martyrs.

Sorry, just saw this. He was killed for his faith when he refused to recant what he'd said.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2018, 11:41:01 AM »
Please note : I am saying that I see the grace of God in Evangelical churches; I am not saying it is absent from your churches,

This may not be the right idea regarding your topic, but for me it was the opposite when I attended Evangelical services a few times in Canada.

I did not see the Evangelical service as expressing something, anything, holy as it went on during the times I attended.

I don't mean to be offensive or to suggest that the Evangelical service is not God-centered or that it is not prepared in reference to the bible, to whatever degree. Not at all.

However, to me it comes off as an ordinary speech/presentation and not more than that. Perhaps this is only related to the particular modern style of Evangelical service that I experienced and that other service styles may indeed be different. I'm not sure.

In contrast, when I enter an Orthodox church there is something present there that is undeniably Holy. It is tangible for me for some reason. I can't really explain that but it is tangible.

I am not sure if this is attributable to grace or not but it seems to me that grace is a possible reason or a needed component for experiencing this tangible thing, in that it is even possible to experience.

I don't think this is logical, and cynically speaking, it may come down to simple skill in showmanship in the end, but it is something I noticed. I prefer to think that this is evidence of grace at some level.

"To me it comes off..." and "for me..." are pretty subjective.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #138 on: June 05, 2018, 01:25:31 PM »
Quote
However, to me it comes off as an ordinary speech/presentation and not more than that. Perhaps this is only related to the particular modern style of Evangelical service that I experienced and that other service styles may indeed be different. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I get it, looks like a regular lecture with a music time, doesnt look like someone is being adored and revered, doesnt look like a religion at all sometimes, looks like a TED talk (modern protestant nondenom churches) or like a cheesy talk show, others look like a corporative meeting. I dont wanna be judgemental, but that's my perception of the average evangelical service, excepting some anglican/lutheran or even presbyterian solemn services that are quite beautiful and reverent and have that tangible feeling of holyness you are talking about, but I havent seen much of those lately in the protestant side of the fence.

I remember the first time I saw a solemn mass and a divine liturgy, it was mindblowing for me.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #139 on: June 05, 2018, 02:12:54 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."

And we're not alone. As julio noted, the non-Orthodox can do things well. For example, the Methodists down the street from me do a standard service one (the one in the front of their hymnal; the first one in the Book of Worship), and I found it quite beautiful with the interplay of the congregation, lector and chancel choir during the psalter portion of the service.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2018, 02:41:27 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."

And we're not alone. As julio noted, the non-Orthodox can do things well. For example, the Methodists down the street from me do a standard service one (the one in the front of their hymnal; the first one in the Book of Worship), and I found it quite beautiful with the interplay of the congregation, lector and chancel choir during the psalter portion of the service.

Yeah, I agree with apologists that the common mega church/nondenom service is too ugly or superficial to be holy, but the argument doesn't necessarily go in the other direction to Orthodoxy's exclusive favor.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2018, 03:02:31 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2018, 03:11:34 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline HardHead

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2018, 06:56:45 PM »
[

"To me it comes off..." and "for me..." are pretty subjective.
[/quote]

I agree completely. I'm not sure what else to say other than to convey how something seems to me.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #144 on: June 05, 2018, 07:38:07 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #145 on: June 05, 2018, 07:52:57 PM »
[q
It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.
There are challenges to overcome for people with sensory disabilities, too, is this any more concerning?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #146 on: June 05, 2018, 08:08:30 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.

I think you, me, and Agabus can all agree that contempo worship services are a farce. But what about the beauty of a Solemn Latin Mass (a Latin service was one of the ones that the Kievan Emissaries are said to have passed on, after all) or a traditional Lutheran service or the Methodist one that he mentioned?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #147 on: June 06, 2018, 10:37:12 AM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.

I think you, me, and Agabus can all agree that contempo worship services are a farce. But what about the beauty of a Solemn Latin Mass (a Latin service was one of the ones that the Kievan Emissaries are said to have passed on, after all) or a traditional Lutheran service or the Methodist one that he mentioned?

The Latin service the Kievan emissaries witnessed was an orthodox service.  I would say the Lutheran and Methodist rites are beautiful because, ultimately, they are derivations of the venerable Latin rite. The Latin rite hasn't changed much since the break with the East- though I would say baroque fripperies are a decided change for the worse. Nowadays I think the most beautiful Western rites are those influenced by medievalism, the Arts & Crafts movement, and all that.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #148 on: June 06, 2018, 03:35:44 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.

I think you, me, and Agabus can all agree that contempo worship services are a farce. But what about the beauty of a Solemn Latin Mass (a Latin service was one of the ones that the Kievan Emissaries are said to have passed on, after all) or a traditional Lutheran service or the Methodist one that he mentioned?

The Latin service the Kievan emissaries witnessed was an orthodox service.  I would say the Lutheran and Methodist rites are beautiful because, ultimately, they are derivations of the venerable Latin rite. The Latin rite hasn't changed much since the break with the East- though I would say baroque fripperies are a decided change for the worse. Nowadays I think the most beautiful Western rites are those influenced by medievalism, the Arts & Crafts movement, and all that.

Fair enough. But there's still a lot of beauty there despite them not being Orthodox, which was the point.
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #149 on: June 06, 2018, 11:55:30 PM »
In contrast, when I enter an Orthodox church there is something present there that is undeniably Holy. It is tangible for me for some reason. I can't really explain that but it is tangible [...]
I don't think this is logical, and cynically speaking, it may come down to simple skill in showmanship in the end, but it is something I noticed. I prefer to think that this is evidence of grace at some level.

Agreed; but this is why Orthodoxy makes so much sense to me. It's not about being purely logical, placing reason above everything else. There is a place for beauty and mystery which are also aspects of God, and which I found either totally lacking or seriously downplayed as a Protestant.

The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.
I get what you're saying on an individual level, but I think on a mass scale beauty is not as subjective as we sometimes treat it.

Yeah, I agree with apologists that the common mega church/nondenom service is too ugly or superficial to be holy, but the argument doesn't necessarily go in the other direction to Orthodoxy's exclusive favor.

Okay but I don't think anyone was arguing that the presence of beauty in Orthodoxy is exclusive to only Orthodoxy. I think it's a sign though, about whether or not one can take a religion or denomination seriously.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2018, 07:52:40 AM »
There is a place for beauty and mystery which are also aspects of God, ... the presence of beauty... it's a sign though, about whether or not one can take a religion or denomination seriously.

As you know from many of my posts, my wife and I enjoy and respond to the beauty of many Orthodox churches when we visit the Greek mainland or Crete, and that beauty is undoubtedly conducive to prayer. Æsthetically one is drawn to such buildings. But that beauty has no power that I have experienced to draw me away from Evangelical belief. The two matters are separate, and there are Protestant churches which are equally conducive to meditation, reflection and prayer, though the character of the ambient beauty is different from in Greece.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2018, 05:14:49 PM »
There is a place for beauty and mystery which are also aspects of God, ... the presence of beauty... it's a sign though, about whether or not one can take a religion or denomination seriously.

As you know from many of my posts, my wife and I enjoy and respond to the beauty of many Orthodox churches when we visit the Greek mainland or Crete, and that beauty is undoubtedly conducive to prayer. Æsthetically one is drawn to such buildings. But that beauty has no power that I have experienced to draw me away from Evangelical belief. The two matters are separate, and there are Protestant churches which are equally conducive to meditation, reflection and prayer, though the character of the ambient beauty is different from in Greece.
I would say substantially different.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #152 on: June 07, 2018, 10:24:09 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.

I think you, me, and Agabus can all agree that contempo worship services are a farce. But what about the beauty of a Solemn Latin Mass (a Latin service was one of the ones that the Kievan Emissaries are said to have passed on, after all) or a traditional Lutheran service or the Methodist one that he mentioned?

The Latin service the Kievan emissaries witnessed was an orthodox service.  I would say the Lutheran and Methodist rites are beautiful because, ultimately, they are derivations of the venerable Latin rite. The Latin rite hasn't changed much since the break with the East- though I would say baroque fripperies are a decided change for the worse. Nowadays I think the most beautiful Western rites are those influenced by medievalism, the Arts & Crafts movement, and all that.
I would dispute that, because it seems to me, and certainly the Westen Rite Orthodox, that the version of the Roman Rite currently in use in the vast majority of Roman Catholic parishes has changed so much that it hardly resembles either the Solemn High Mass, despite the amount of text they have in common, or the various Eastern Divine Liturgies. I ran across a nice article from New Liturgical Movement explaining the differences, complete with a handy one-page chart summarizing them that I guess you are meant to print out and hand out like tracts to your "Novus Ordo" friends?  ;)

Now, maybe you can dispute that some of these are unfairly harsh, and all these are a matter of style, and don't change the essential content significantly, but I don't think the two can be separated very easily.

I also don't like the Low Mass. But it is probably more due to the lack of singing in favor of nearly inaudible speaking, and how it came about to make it possible for more people to get more Masses dedicated for them alone rather than "on behalf of all and for all", than anything specifically wrong with them -- indeed it seems the Western Rite is more or less OK with them, though everyone should be saying the responses. Still, since nothing like it is in any of the other Apostolic Churches to my knowledge, it seems rather untraditional.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #153 on: June 08, 2018, 07:07:40 AM »
There is a place for beauty and mystery which are also aspects of God, ... the presence of beauty... it's a sign though, about whether or not one can take a religion or denomination seriously.

As you know from many of my posts, my wife and I enjoy and respond to the beauty of many Orthodox churches when we visit the Greek mainland or Crete, and that beauty is undoubtedly conducive to prayer. Æsthetically one is drawn to such buildings. But that beauty has no power that I have experienced to draw me away from Evangelical belief. The two matters are separate, and there are Protestant churches which are equally conducive to meditation, reflection and prayer, though the character of the ambient beauty is different from in Greece.
I would say substantially different.

I was referring, of course, only to the buildings, on the assumption that when one enters them no one else is there, so one has the place to oneself. There is a great different between a 1000-year-old Orthodox church in Greece, a 1000-year-old Anglican church in England, and a 170-year-old Methodist chapel. But each has its own beauty, each speaks in its own way of the presence (now or in the past) of God, and each prompts prayer, meditation and worship - of (I would say) the same God.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #154 on: June 08, 2018, 10:00:32 AM »
... and there are Protestant churches which are equally conducive to meditation, reflection and prayer, though the character of the ambient beauty is different from in Greece.
No offense, but the lack of an altar tells me that non liturgical Protestant churches are not buildings erected, set apart, for the worship of God.  However, those liturgical Protestant churches, whose anaphoras are often truncated or invoked by women, make a mockery of it all.  Just saying...
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Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #155 on: June 08, 2018, 03:38:08 PM »
the lack of an altar tells me that non liturgical Protestant churches are not buildings erected, set apart, for the worship of God.

I think you are going too far when you say they are "not set apart for the worship of God." I can see why you might say that we Baptists, and other believers who do not have altars, are attempting to worship God but in an erroneous way (I don't agree, of course!), but we do at least intend build our chapels/meeting places/churches "for the worship of God".

Quote
those liturgical Protestant churches, whose anaphoras are often truncated or invoked by women, make a mockery of it all. 

I agree: not because we believe in a priesthood (on which, I think, there is a concurrent thread that I have not yet looked at), but because the Scriptures forbid female teachers and leaders in the churches.
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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #156 on: June 08, 2018, 06:52:52 PM »
What do you want us to say. O' its so beautiful!  Revelation give the the instruction for how to build a church. The corner stone is there along with the saints.

Offline Golgotha

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #157 on: June 08, 2018, 07:19:56 PM »
“Beauty will save the world” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #158 on: June 08, 2018, 07:22:30 PM »
From what?
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Offline Golgotha

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #159 on: June 08, 2018, 07:46:43 PM »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #160 on: June 08, 2018, 07:50:33 PM »
From what?

I interpret it as "ugliness brutalizes us and makes us more likely to mistreat each other, while the beauty of Christianity elevates us and brings about world peace."

Then again it might be more existentialist than that.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #161 on: June 08, 2018, 09:43:53 PM »

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #162 on: June 08, 2018, 10:11:20 PM »
My issue is, the "beauty" passage in the novel (The Idiot) doesn't really explain; it's not presented as some philosophical point, but rather as a way for some characters to mock the naivete or simplicity of the Christ-like protagonist. I get the feeling it was meant to be a larger point, as with Dostoevsky's Underground man and the stuff with the "sublime and beautiful," yet the story of the underground man seems to argue in completely the opposite direction of what is said in The Idiot, and the underground man seems closer to the Prince's antagonists in mocking the idea of beauty saving the world. So for me, I can get what it could mean, but in trying to understand how it was originally intended it doesn't seem to add up. With the underground man stuff Dostoevsky was critiquing certain European philosophy, so perhaps the "beauty" passage in The Idiot is related certain Russian or Byzantine religious ideas about beauty... but I don't know where to go to find out more.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #163 on: June 08, 2018, 10:23:32 PM »
My issue is, the "beauty" passage in the novel (The Idiot) doesn't really explain; it's not presented as some philosophical point, but rather as a way for some characters to mock the naivete or simplicity of the Christ-like protagonist. I get the feeling it was meant to be a larger point, as with Dostoevsky's Underground man and the stuff with the "sublime and beautiful," yet the story of the underground man seems to argue in completely the opposite direction of what is said in The Idiot, and the underground man seems closer to the Prince's antagonists in mocking the idea of beauty saving the world. So for me, I can get what it could mean, but in trying to understand how it was originally intended it doesn't seem to add up. With the underground man stuff Dostoevsky was critiquing certain European philosophy, so perhaps the "beauty" passage in The Idiot is related certain Russian or Byzantine religious ideas about beauty... but I don't know where to go to find out more.

Ah, ok. Well, I've not read either yet. I was just taking a shot in the dark.
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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #164 on: June 08, 2018, 10:30:28 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you (or other posters) are wrong, I'm just wondering about the philosophical/religious backstory to it.
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Offline Brilko

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #165 on: June 09, 2018, 12:35:54 AM »
My issue is, the "beauty" passage in the novel (The Idiot) doesn't really explain; it's not presented as some philosophical point, but rather as a way for some characters to mock the naivete or simplicity of the Christ-like protagonist. I get the feeling it was meant to be a larger point, as with Dostoevsky's Underground man and the stuff with the "sublime and beautiful," yet the story of the underground man seems to argue in completely the opposite direction of what is said in The Idiot, and the underground man seems closer to the Prince's antagonists in mocking the idea of beauty saving the world. So for me, I can get what it could mean, but in trying to understand how it was originally intended it doesn't seem to add up. With the underground man stuff Dostoevsky was critiquing certain European philosophy, so perhaps the "beauty" passage in The Idiot is related certain Russian or Byzantine religious ideas about beauty... but I don't know where to go to find out more.

I haven’t read the novel, so no idea what Dostoevsky intended.

What is beauty? Is just anything that looks pretty? Is it something deeper and bigger? Maybe Keats was correct that “Beauty is truth, truth beauty”. So then what is truth? Maybe I’ll just wash my hands of the whole thing.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #166 on: June 09, 2018, 12:02:39 PM »
The aesthetic argument has serious weaknesses since it more or less boils down to, "I felt like it was too beautiful not to be holy."
why is that a weakness

Let me reframe:

Beauty itself is not the weakness.

It's the inability to see beauty in other places because of the jaundice of one's own tastes, proclivities and baggage.

I can live with the fact that, while I see the beauty of holiness most fully manifest in Orthodox worship, other people will have different perceptions because they have terrible taste in everything and think Maroon 5 is a cool band.

I think you, me, and Agabus can all agree that contempo worship services are a farce. But what about the beauty of a Solemn Latin Mass (a Latin service was one of the ones that the Kievan Emissaries are said to have passed on, after all) or a traditional Lutheran service or the Methodist one that he mentioned?

The Latin service the Kievan emissaries witnessed was an orthodox service.  I would say the Lutheran and Methodist rites are beautiful because, ultimately, they are derivations of the venerable Latin rite. The Latin rite hasn't changed much since the break with the East- though I would say baroque fripperies are a decided change for the worse. Nowadays I think the most beautiful Western rites are those influenced by medievalism, the Arts & Crafts movement, and all that.

I agree almost entirely, once again.  Spooky. :P

The sole bone of contention we face might concern the Baroque era; while conceding there was enormous frippery, some of the liturgical music composed by Bach and Handel is a delight (Bach’s Lutheran masses intended for actual liturgical use, and his cantatas, excluding the Mass in B Minor, which is not liturgically usable and which I do not believe Bach wrote for that purpose); in the case of Handel, aside from some briliant sacred oratorios, like Messiah, his liturgical music for the British coronation service including a setting of the Te Deum and the spectacular anthem “Zadok the Priest” seem entirely correct to me.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #167 on: June 09, 2018, 03:29:41 PM »
the lack of an altar tells me that non liturgical Protestant churches are not buildings erected, set apart, for the worship of God.

I think you are going too far when you say they are "not set apart for the worship of God." I can see why you might say that we Baptists, and other believers who do not have altars, are attempting to worship God but in an erroneous way (I don't agree, of course!), but we do at least intend build our chapels/meeting places/churches "for the worship of God".

I do agree that this is the intent, for in no way I consider Protestants as anything but believers, but I do not think that this is reflected in the architecture.  It may be rather complicated to expand on this, but I had in mind Protestant places of worship designed identically to auditoriums or amphitheaters.  Perhaps it's the absence of traits that would set the design of the building apart from other purposes.

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those liturgical Protestant churches, whose anaphoras are often truncated or invoked by women, make a mockery of it all. 

I agree: not because we believe in a priesthood (on which, I think, there is a concurrent thread that I have not yet looked at), but because the Scriptures forbid female teachers and leaders in the churches.

The anaphoras are straight from the Scriptures, so truncating them, IMO, mocks them.  I have specifically Presbytereans in mind here.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:32:52 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #168 on: June 09, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »
What is beauty? Is just anything that looks pretty? Is it something deeper and bigger? Maybe Keats was correct that “Beauty is truth, truth beauty”. So then what is truth? Maybe I’ll just wash my hands of the whole thing.
Which seems close to the Scholastic maxim that God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty Himself.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #169 on: June 09, 2018, 05:37:52 PM »
The anaphoras are straight from the Scriptures, so truncating them, IMO, mocks them.  I have specifically Presbytereans in mind here.

I may have occasionally administered Communion in a Presbyterian church, certainly in a Congregational one, but I always warn them they'll have the style I have always used in Baptist churches. I don't know how the Presbyterians usually do it.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #170 on: June 09, 2018, 05:45:10 PM »
... I had in mind Protestant places of worship designed identically to auditoriums or amphitheaters.  Perhaps it's the absence of traits that would set the design of the building apart from other purposes.

In the Victorian age (I can write only of England and Wales) many congregations numbered many hundreds or even into four figures, so such design was necessary in the circumstances. Like yourgoodself, I find them unconducive to a spirit or worship. But when there was a multitude worshipping from the heart, and preaching given under the anointing of the Spirit of God, the actually services brought many to God. It was then only the presence and working of God that effected this, not the design of the building, I think.

But many smaller churches and chapels, mainly in villages, were designed for smaller congregations, and (again I can speak only of England and Wales) do silently speak of the many years of the people's worship and experience of God, and perhaps of of the moving of God among his people, and such do inspire our worship worship of him, I find.
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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #171 on: June 09, 2018, 07:20:32 PM »
Good let him or her stay until they are truly called ```

---------------------------------------------

Protestantism ~ all of it in their separate churches in the thousands ~ are Protesting The Roman Church  as it was back then ~ while doing that so much else was lost ~ so much of the knowledge of God and the tradition and memory of the Universal Church ~ which is with all of us ```

I meet people who I think and believe love the Lord ~ upon listening feel there is something missing ~ that they wouldn't have said this or that if they knew Our Lord ```
I'm not a missionary ~ I don't try to convert or preach or teach ~ I think ~ most of the time I would't do it well ```

There are glaring times when a person will sound disrespectful or too familiar ~ saying Jesus Christ he's my buddy ~ as if Christ was Our Lord's last name ~ or ~ refer to Our Lord as God's Son ~ so as to ~ well ~ have no belief that ~ The Father and Son are One with The Spirit ~ like no understanding of Trinity ~ together and equal ~ and ~ at times as if Christ was a man ~ a good, a great man ~ gone to the Father ~ but not exactly God ~ that the Son did not exist until conception or birth ```
You ~ Orthodox Christians ~ I feel we have an ~ I think Feeling may be the word as to the Magnitude of God and Persons of God ~ so that ~ I would hear ~ not a complete knowledge so you feel we can speak for him ~ but more of an Awe of His Greatness ~ yet feel He Knows us Well ```

I most likely did not say or write this well ~ but ``` I'll stop now ~ am I ~ in your eyes ~ close or way off base to your ears ```
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 07:24:51 PM by Sethrak »

Offline David Young

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2018, 03:31:57 PM »
Protestantism ~ all of it in their separate churches in the thousands ~ are Protesting The Roman Church

It has been said that Protestants and Catholics are asking the same questions and getting different answers, whilst Orthodox are asking different questions. There may be a lot of sense in that statement.

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There are glaring times when a person will sound disrespectful or too familiar ~ saying Jesus Christ he's my buddy

I quite agree; it makes you cringe.

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  no understanding of Trinity... at times as if Christ was a man ~ a good, a great man ~ gone to the Father ~ but not exactly God

I don't think anyone understands the Trinity, but we Prots are at least Trinitarian and believe in both the manhood and the deity of Jesus Christ.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Why I remain an Evangelical
« Reply #173 on: August 17, 2018, 01:37:39 AM »
I have taken part in this forum for no small time and have pondered the more thoughtful and cogent arguments y'all have put forward for becoming Orthodox - and yet I remain Evangelical! Why? There are two Scriptures which encapsulate my reason: Acts 11:22-3, "...they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad"; and Galatians 2:9, "they perceived the grace that was given to me." Over the past 55 years or so I have read much Protestant and Evangelical history, and many biographies and autobiographies, and there I believe I "see" or "perceive" the grace of God: prisoners for the faith sustained; drunkards reformed; wife-beaters made loving husbands and fathers; drug addicts reclaimed; adulterers, thieves, and criminals finding a sense of forgiveness and changed lives; atheists finding faith; and all of them, as a result, giving thanks and glory to God the Father and Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour, believing this new life to be given by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes this happens in isolated individuals, sometimes, at times of God's appointing, to multitudes together at times of visitation. And so, in the words of another scripture, my response is, "Your people shall be my people, and your God my God."

Please note : I am saying that I see the grace of God in Evangelical churches; I am not saying it is absent from your churches, and indeed reading some Orthodox literature, not least Jim Forest's "The Resurrection of the Church in Albania", I believe I have seen it there too: but that is another matter.

David when I left Roman Catholicism (for the first time), I went into the Baptist Tradition, where I remained for the better part of 20 years before discovering Orthodoxy. After a about 18 months of examining Orthodoxy, I took a fresh look at Rome and went home, eventually into Rome. It wasn't long before I could not spend much time in the Novus Ordo and settled on an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. In conclusion, just my 18 month encounter with Orthodoxy made me far too orthodox to be back home in Rome, especially in the Novus Ordo. Additionally, I was doing nothing more than, "hiding out in the east," while back with Rome and one day I realized, "why should it not be so" that I should be Orthodox?

My point to you is this. Shortly after discovering Orthodoxy, as an evangelical bible teacher and leader of numerous ministries (and teaching director) I could no longer practice Protestantism in the face of Orthodoxy. Moreover, I was quickly becoming, "Orthodox at heart." This is the point I want to raise to you. I see your avatar has a photo of someone behind a pulpit. Is that you? Have you at any point, since interacting with the Orthodox, defended them, taken their side or even borrowed from the Orthodox Fathers to explain theology to your congregation or bible study group(s)? If so, then you also in some way become Orthodox at heart. This is where it normally starts. The question is not how long you will remain evangelical. It is a matter of long before you become and embrace Orthodoxy?

I sympathize with your plight and understand your questions. You will find minimal answers debating them on a forum, where things normally degenerate into "sword fights" and defending one's own views. Have you ever visited an Orthodox monastery? Have you ever attended the Divine Liturgy (not so much for an academic experience) but to enter into the liturgy itself? Have you sat one on one with an Orthodox priest? I believe these few different journies into a real experience with Orthodoxy will answer the questions you won't find in this forum, (which of course is not meant to take away from anyone's knowledge or contributions here.) Point being, you are putting words to a page to attempt to defend Protestantism the face of Orthodoxy, something in my opinion, completely melts away when one experiences the reality of Orthodoxy in person.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 01:41:21 AM by noahzarc1 »