Author Topic: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant  (Read 1016 times)

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Offline Dominika

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Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« on: February 15, 2018, 07:28:13 PM »
It's not precisely Western rite, but I can't find better section for this:

Quote
The monks of Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in BC have created a collection of liturgical hymns set to Gregorian melodies.
(...)
These features were the basic motivation for these adaptations: the idea was to provide an authentic modal chant suitable for English-speaking Orthodox congregations in the West; a chant they would feel at home with.
Source and the rest of the text

Orthodox Liturgical Hymns in Gregorian Chant - PDF


Some recordings


Of course, it's not the first time; Ukrainian archbishop Jonathan (Yelitskiy) has arranged Gregorian melodies to some hymns in Church Slavonic (here - some Polish Orthodox in the Western part of the country have, recently, adopted the melody of "Ubi Caritas" for psalm 102 and for "Only Begotten Son", some German Orthodox monks have done the same (for example here, but I have privately more recordings), I have also at least 2 Latin-Gregorian recordings of the Paschal troparion.

Personally I think that the usage of these chants to some extend could be beneficial, especially for converts. Still, classical Gregorian melody for "Our Father" - the language doesn't matter there for me - it's my favourite one, it really touches me deeply.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 09:07:24 PM »
Qui Cherubim mystice imitamur. It's probably proto-Gregorian (Gallican) and I think you posted it yourself in the forum.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 10:30:11 PM »
It's not precisely Western rite, but I can't find better section for this:

Quote
The monks of Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in BC have created a collection of liturgical hymns set to Gregorian melodies.
(...)
These features were the basic motivation for these adaptations: the idea was to provide an authentic modal chant suitable for English-speaking Orthodox congregations in the West; a chant they would feel at home with.
Source and the rest of the text

Orthodox Liturgical Hymns in Gregorian Chant - PDF


Some recordings


Of course, it's not the first time; Ukrainian archbishop Jonathan (Yelitskiy) has arranged Gregorian melodies to some hymns in Church Slavonic (here - some Polish Orthodox in the Western part of the country have, recently, adopted the melody of "Ubi Caritas" for psalm 102 and for "Only Begotten Son", some German Orthodox monks have done the same (for example here, but I have privately more recordings), I have also at least 2 Latin-Gregorian recordings of the Paschal troparion.

Personally I think that the usage of these chants to some extend could be beneficial, especially for converts. Still, classical Gregorian melody for "Our Father" - the language doesn't matter there for me - it's my favourite one, it really touches me deeply.

Is the first set of recordings pay walled? It's not working for me.

I love the ones in German, though. Sehr shoen. Thanks for that.

EDIT: It began working right after I posted that. Never mind, lol.

That is beautiful.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 10:32:58 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 10:55:45 PM »
It's not precisely Western rite, but I can't find better section for this:

Quote
The monks of Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in BC have created a collection of liturgical hymns set to Gregorian melodies.
(...)
These features were the basic motivation for these adaptations: the idea was to provide an authentic modal chant suitable for English-speaking Orthodox congregations in the West; a chant they would feel at home with.
Source and the rest of the text

Orthodox Liturgical Hymns in Gregorian Chant - PDF


Some recordings


Of course, it's not the first time; Ukrainian archbishop Jonathan (Yelitskiy) has arranged Gregorian melodies to some hymns in Church Slavonic (here - some Polish Orthodox in the Western part of the country have, recently, adopted the melody of "Ubi Caritas" for psalm 102 and for "Only Begotten Son", some German Orthodox monks have done the same (for example here, but I have privately more recordings), I have also at least 2 Latin-Gregorian recordings of the Paschal troparion.

Personally I think that the usage of these chants to some extend could be beneficial, especially for converts. Still, classical Gregorian melody for "Our Father" - the language doesn't matter there for me - it's my favourite one, it really touches me deeply.

Very interesting!

Be aware that when one downloads the pdf it is unreadable because the file is named xxxx.pdf.part

It is necessary to rename the file deleting the ".part" making the final extension .pdf in order to be opened by Acrobat reader.

Definitely worth the effort.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 10:09:11 AM »
Qui Cherubim mystice imitamur. It's probably proto-Gregorian (Gallican) and I think you posted it yourself in the forum.

Yep, I have posted there in anotehr thread, and if I recall correctly, I've found it due to your Mozarabic links ;)
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 12:11:29 PM »
Some monks, from Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in British Columbia, have taken upon themselves to translate (at least what it seems to me) the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and Eastern Liturgical Prayer Services, in Gregorian Chant. The goal seems to be an interpretation of what Old Gregorian Chant may have sounded like.

https://oca.org/news/headline-news/in-the-news-british-columbia-serbia-illinois-ohio1


Volume 1 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Volume 2 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/vol_2_-_orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Recordings:
https://thechoir.bandcamp.com/album/orthodox-hymns-in-gregorian-chant-vol-2
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 12:16:55 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 01:01:27 PM »
Some monks, from Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in British Columbia, have taken upon themselves to translate (at least what it seems to me) the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and Eastern Liturgical Prayer Services, in Gregorian Chant. The goal seems to be an interpretation of what Old Gregorian Chant may have sounded like.

https://oca.org/news/headline-news/in-the-news-british-columbia-serbia-illinois-ohio1


Volume 1 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Volume 2 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/vol_2_-_orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Recordings:
https://thechoir.bandcamp.com/album/orthodox-hymns-in-gregorian-chant-vol-2

Archbishop Ionafan of the canonical Ukrainian church under the MP composed a setting of the Orthodox divine liturgy (technically of St. John Chrysostom by virtue of the facf that it features the hymn “It is truly meet” rather than “All of creation”), called the “liturgy of peace,” using as its base melody the popular Gregorian mass setting known as the Missa de Angelis (which is not original but rather High Middle ages / Early Renaissance, I believe it was of Franciscan origin).
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 01:24:41 PM »
Glad to see there is a continuation.
I created a thread for this project (also of mentioned by Alpha abp Ionafan and of some Germans) some months ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,73285.0.html
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 01:27:38 PM »
Perhaps you could use your moderatorial superpowers and merge the threads??   :)

Done.
Dominika, GM
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:52:08 PM by Dominika »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline ComingofAge

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2018, 12:09:20 AM »
Oh man, these chants are outstanding! Thanks!
Let us open our mouths and sing hymns of salvation. Come and fall down in the house of the Lord and say: Pardon our sins, you who hung upon the cross and rose from the dead, and yet are forever in the bosom of the Father.

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2018, 11:04:31 AM »
This is silly. Why not to become WRO for real instead creating silly combinations.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2018, 11:16:05 AM »
This is silly. Why not to become WRO for real instead creating silly combinations.

I don't really see the silliness. Musical styles can migrate between rites, and new music is always being composed, so what's wrong with using the old Gregorian system which has a common root with Byzantine chant (unlike, say, Georgian chant)?
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2018, 01:14:54 PM »
This is silly. Why not to become WRO for real instead creating silly combinations.

I don't really see the silliness. Musical styles can migrate between rites, and new music is always being composed, so what's wrong with using the old Gregorian system which has a common root with Byzantine chant (unlike, say, Georgian chant)?

Exactly. There have been always influences on various chants, e.g Byzantine on Coptic, Gregorian on old Russian chant (really!), Pagan/folk music on sacred (Christian) one etc. So, it's nothing new, nothing silly.
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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 01:15:24 PM »
This is silly. Why not to become WRO for real instead creating silly combinations.

I don't really see the silliness. Musical styles can migrate between rites

It can but I don't really see any reason for it. Why wouldn't Byzantine rite be good as it is?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2018, 01:20:07 PM »
The Byzantine rite is already host to lots of different musical styles and new music is being written all the time, so what does "as it is" mean?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2018, 01:36:08 PM »
The Byzantine rite is already host to lots of different musical styles and new music is being written all the time, so what does "as it is" mean?

Pluralism doesn't mean anarchy. I'm not qualified or interested enough to provide more precise exposition on this. Just think that while there's nothing particularly wrong with either tradition but they shouldn't mix as it dilutes both. Feel free to disagree.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2018, 02:09:24 PM »
I'm not sure how a handful of people setting hymns to Gregorian modes is anywhere approaching anarchy. The standard chant system in Russia is a hodgepodge of elements from different places, many of them of uncertain provenance. That's before you add Italian and German baroque stuff into the mix. Then there are composers all over the place writing new music for the divine liturgy and this is not new. At least with adapting the Byzantine rite to an ancient, existing system, there is some necessary discipline and consistency.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2018, 02:26:07 PM »
I'm not sure how a handful of people setting hymns to Gregorian modes is anywhere approaching anarchy. The standard chant system in Russia is a hodgepodge of elements from different places, many of them of uncertain provenance. That's before you add Italian and German baroque stuff into the mix. Then there are composers all over the place writing new music for the divine liturgy and this is not new. At least with adapting the Byzantine rite to an ancient, existing system, there is some necessary discipline and consistency.

Right. Not all innovation is anarchy.

To wit, every example I've seen of people adapting Appalachian melodies to Orthodox chant have conformed them to the tonal rules in much more obvious ways than some of the baroque stuff.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:26:26 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2018, 02:30:33 PM »
I remember a western-rite monk from the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia saying that in pre-Nikonian Russia they used a hybrid version of the Sarum Rite.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:31:55 PM by Jackson02 »

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2018, 02:34:54 PM »
Mm, no, I highly doubt that. There is a liturgy of Saint Peter which is a Byzantine liturgy with the Roman canon inserted.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2018, 02:42:54 PM »
I remember a monk from the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia saying that in pre-Nikonian Russia they used a hybrid version of the Sarum Rite.

Why would sixteenth century Russians be using an English rite?

Of course, the Hereford rite was used for a time in a very limited context in Italy.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2018, 02:54:50 PM »
Mm, no, I highly doubt that. There is a liturgy of Saint Peter which is a Byzantine liturgy with the Roman canon inserted.

That's what he was talking about. He also said that there were variations of the Roman-Rite that were "easternized" that are preserved in Old Believer books.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:58:33 PM by Jackson02 »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2018, 04:05:00 PM »
Mm, no, I highly doubt that. There is a liturgy of Saint Peter which is a Byzantine liturgy with the Roman canon inserted.

That's what he was talking about. He also said that there were variations of the Roman-Rite that were "easternized" that are preserved in Old Believer books.
So that's it. Some Old Believers have late practiced or still do practice the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter continuously, while it has been restored in more limited contexts. Calling it Russian Sarum rite is a bit weird but this is definitely what he meant.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2018, 04:09:28 PM »
I'm not sure how a handful of people setting hymns to Gregorian modes is anywhere approaching anarchy. The standard chant system in Russia is a hodgepodge of elements from different places, many of them of uncertain provenance. That's before you add Italian and German baroque stuff into the mix. Then there are composers all over the place writing new music for the divine liturgy and this is not new. At least with adapting the Byzantine rite to an ancient, existing system, there is some necessary discipline and consistency.

Right. Not all innovation is anarchy.

To wit, every example I've seen of people adapting Appalachian melodies to Orthodox chant have conformed them to the tonal rules in much more obvious ways than some of the baroque stuff.

No objections from me for using local melodies. Which Gregorian melodies aren't but Appalachian are.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2018, 04:44:09 PM »
every example I've seen of people adapting Appalachian melodies to Orthodox chant
Wait, what?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2018, 04:47:51 PM »
every example I've seen of people adapting Appalachian melodies to Orthodox chant
Wait, what?

+1

Eaxamples?
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2018, 04:54:28 PM »
Quote
Calling it Russian Sarum rite is a bit weird but this is definitely what he meant.

That's my fault actually. I meant to say Roman rite.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:55:29 PM by Jackson02 »

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2018, 05:13:30 PM »
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Agabus

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2018, 08:17:48 PM »
every example I've seen of people adapting Appalachian melodies to Orthodox chant
Wait, what?

+1

Eaxamples?

He probably means this:

"Christ Is Risen" Composed by Vladimir Morosan

Yes, but I've seen others. This, for example.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2018, 08:30:37 PM »
That's pretty sweet.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Agabus

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2018, 08:41:42 PM »
That's pretty sweet.

I'll try to dig a few more up later.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2018, 08:42:51 PM »
That's pretty sweet.
I'll try to dig a few more up later.
Please do!
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Offline platypus

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2018, 08:22:52 PM »
I'm trying to learn to chant the psalms right now, in Gregorian chant. I'm trouble figuring out how to apply the tones to the psalms, though. Specifically, I'm not sure how to tell how many words or syllables to say during each note. I'm also curious if I can adapt the same tones to my HTM psalter.

I'm attempting to use the St. Dunstan psalter, found here: https://archive.org/stream/ThePsalmsOfDavidFrom#page/n73/mode/2up

Do any of you guys know how to use psalm tones? Any help would be appreciated.

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2018, 08:38:28 PM »
Some monks, from Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in British Columbia, have taken upon themselves to translate (at least what it seems to me) the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and Eastern Liturgical Prayer Services, in Gregorian Chant. The goal seems to be an interpretation of what Old Gregorian Chant may have sounded like.

https://oca.org/news/headline-news/in-the-news-british-columbia-serbia-illinois-ohio1


Volume 1 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Volume 2 (PDF):
https://www.archdiocese.ca/sites/default/files/vol_2_-_orthodox_liturgical_hymns_in_gregorian_chant.pdf

Recordings:
https://thechoir.bandcamp.com/album/orthodox-hymns-in-gregorian-chant-vol-2

Archbishop Ionafan of the canonical Ukrainian church under the MP composed a setting of the Orthodox divine liturgy (technically of St. John Chrysostom by virtue of the facf that it features the hymn “It is truly meet” rather than “All of creation”), called the “liturgy of peace,” using as its base melody the popular Gregorian mass setting known as the Missa de Angelis (which is not original but rather High Middle ages / Early Renaissance, I believe it was of Franciscan origin).
It is Anaphora of St Basil or St John Chrysostom that gives the Liturgy it’s name not the Irmos which can change depending on the Feast.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2018, 08:43:21 PM »
If not for the Latin verses between the Kyries I couldn’t distinguish this Old Roman Chant from Byzantine.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJtBh3LGJg
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2018, 09:17:44 PM »
From what I know, Marcel Perez's renditions of Old Roman Chant are heavily based on the Byzantine Tradition, primarily arguing that the interconnection between Rome and the Eastern Empire - even to the point of the Byzantine Papacy, where the Popes were confirmed by the Byzantine Empire - would allow for a logical conclusion that the chants would be similar, if not identical, and it's thus appropriate for contemporary Byzantine Chant to serve as a basis.

How true that is is certainly up for debate, but I think the real question is how both Byzantine Chant and Gregorian Chant have individually, on their own, changed from one another and their prototypes.. I don't think you can really substitute one in for another and say "that's how it sounded like," but that's just me trying to use a similar logic to how the liturgies changed over time (there were elements in both the West and the East that were shared but have since grown apart; the East had tonsured heads like the West as well as really plain, almost Gothic robes from what I've read online back in the day, while the West never had pews until the 12th century and seemed to not have statues until the time of growing tensions between East and West, and if not Byzantine iconography than Romanesque iconography, with shared themes).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:24:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2018, 09:23:26 PM »
Much like how the liturgies have changed as they have been separated, as well as historical circumstances influencing the liturgy (for example, the Biretta and the Kamilavka being originally symbols of political authority in each culture; the Renaissance impacting the West, Islamic domination impacting the Greek and Arabic traditions), I like to think that they both were more of a blend together but still clearly distinct from one another back in the day, but they both developed differently.

Feel free to destroy my opinion with facts if you disagree.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:26:54 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Hymns in Gregorian Chant
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2018, 03:50:57 PM »
If not for the Latin verses between the Kyries I couldn’t distinguish this Old Roman Chant from Byzantine.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJtBh3LGJg
Me neither, very interesting.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth