Author Topic: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?  (Read 635 times)

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Online LivenotoneviL

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Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« on: February 13, 2018, 04:34:51 PM »
Okay, I couldn't help myself. One last post.

Is the Hebrew rendering of "she will crush your head" technically still correct?

After all, it was through the Theotokos that Christ came into the world to save sinners.
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LivenotoneviL: yeah right get behind me satan

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 05:49:12 PM »
Okay, I couldn't help myself. One last post.

Is the Hebrew rendering of "she will crush your head" technically still correct?

After all, it was through the Theotokos that Christ came into the world to save sinners.

No, the Hebrew pronoun is masculine, in agreement with the masculine zar'ah "her seed."
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Xavier

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 01:26:27 AM »
Yes, it is correct. And there are many Jewish witnesses to it in Hebrew. The first explicit prophesy in Sacred Scripture is about the Messiah and His Mother. http://taylormarshall.com/2010/12/who-crushes-satans-head-in-genesis-315.html

Quote
"Our three best Jewish witnesses to Gen 3:15 interpret the passage as “she shall crush.” These are Philo Judaeus, Josephus the roman historian, and Moses Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish philosopher. Philo argues that the Hebrew parallel poetry of Gen 3:15 demands the reading of “she shall crush.” Josephus, also writing in Greek, describes the passage for us as reading “she shall crush.” Then last of all, Maimonides also states that Gen 3:15 teaches that the woman shall crush the head of the serpent."

And http://www.unitypublishing.com/SheWillCrush.htm

Quote
The first is simply that the original Hebrew word only means:  "the former" - the word implies no number and no gender -- that is WHY the older translations use the phrase: "IT" shall crush thy head. That is, perhaps, the most literal translation - if one chooses to isolate this phrase out of it's context. Using the word "it" makes it clear that there is no specific linguistic linkage to gender, which would clearly identify WHO will crush the serpents head. In all fairness, the original word COULD refer to BOTH, since the word used, simply means: "the former" - i.e. the just referred to. Since that last reference was enmity "between your seed and her seed" - it is not clear if "the former" refers to "her" or to "her seed" ... The reason St. Jerome is right, and all modern translations are WRONG is because he clearly understood the meaning of CONTEXT of the passage. The context is that there is an enmity between the WOMAN and the SERPENT - and only ONE can rightfully be permitted to CRUSH HIS HEAD. The choices are 1) the woman, or 2) all of her combined offspring designated by the term "it". If there is anything CERTAIN, it is that the OFFSPRING is not a SINGULAR case. Only the WOMAN can be used in the singular case. Therefore, "the former" that the scripture is referring to is, as Jerome accurately translated it, is the woman.
It is MORE of of linguistic stretch to try to force the OFFSPRING of the woman to reference a "specific singular" - than it is permit "the WOMAN" to be the reference of the "specific singular".

Locution, Aug 18, 2014: "They will realize that I have released an ocean of graces which have changed their darkness into light. They will realize that they have been freed from the past century of diabolical control. They will also know that this great gift has come through the consecration of Russia made by the Holy Father in communion with all the bishops in the world. http://locutions-forever.org/locutions/show/2014-08-18/1-the-overcoming-of-separation

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 02:09:25 AM »
No, the Hebrew pronoun is masculine, in agreement with the masculine zar'ah "her seed."
is always masculine, but הוא isn't always , it can be (feminine) too, though only in the Torah. See Exodus 2:2, where it refers to Jochebed. The Hebrew wording is ambiguous. The Targum (Aramaic paraphrase) and Septuagint (Greek translation used by the Orthodox Church to this day) seem to be unambiguously male, though.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 02:57:37 AM »

And http://www.unitypublishing.com/SheWillCrush.htm

Quote
The first is simply that the original Hebrew word only means:  "the former" - the word implies no number and no gender -- that is WHY the older translations use the phrase: "IT" shall crush thy head. That is, perhaps, the most literal translation - if one chooses to isolate this phrase out of it's context. Using the word "it" makes it clear that there is no specific linguistic linkage to gender, which would clearly identify WHO will crush the serpents head. In all fairness, the original word COULD refer to BOTH, since the word used, simply means: "the former" - i.e. the just referred to. Since that last reference was enmity "between your seed and her seed" - it is not clear if "the former" refers to "her" or to "her seed" ... The reason St. Jerome is right, and all modern translations are WRONG is because he clearly understood the meaning of CONTEXT of the passage. The context is that there is an enmity between the WOMAN and the SERPENT - and only ONE can rightfully be permitted to CRUSH HIS HEAD. The choices are 1) the woman, or 2) all of her combined offspring designated by the term "it". If there is anything CERTAIN, it is that the OFFSPRING is not a SINGULAR case. Only the WOMAN can be used in the singular case. Therefore, "the former" that the scripture is referring to is, as Jerome accurately translated it, is the woman.
It is MORE of of linguistic stretch to try to force the OFFSPRING of the woman to reference a "specific singular" - than it is permit "the WOMAN" to be the reference of the "specific singular".

Emphasis mine.

Doesn't that conflict with Galatians 3:16 (also emphasis mine)?

Quote
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 02:58:30 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 11:22:47 AM »
No, the Hebrew pronoun is masculine, in agreement with the masculine zar'ah "her seed."
is always masculine, but הוא isn't always , it can be (feminine) too, though only in the Torah. See Exodus 2:2, where it refers to Jochebed. The Hebrew wording is ambiguous. The Targum (Aramaic paraphrase) and Septuagint (Greek translation used by the Orthodox Church to this day) seem to be unambiguously male, though.

In Exodus 2:2, הוא is in fact , referring to the son, not Jochebed:
וַתֵּ֤רֶא אֹתוֹ֙ כִּי־ט֣וֹב ה֔וּא
(Literally) and-seeing him that-good he => And seeing that he was good.

Even though the Masoretic Text does occasionally have הוא where היא would be expected, the MT points it differently to reflect the pronunciation. It is of course possible that the scribes didn't catch all of them, but here the masculine is required since the predicate adjective ט֣וֹב is masculine, and it is referring back to the masculine pronominal suffix on אֹתוֹ֙.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 11:27:57 AM »
Putting aside Hebrew grammar questions (which are far above my head) it seems to me that if we can say Mary saves us, through her son, then we can likewise say she crushes the serpent's head.
Quote
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- Berdyaev

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 11:32:31 AM »
Putting aside Hebrew grammar questions (which are far above my head) it seems to me that if we can say Mary saves us, through her son, then we can likewise say she crushes the serpent's head.

Indeed. I've never had a problem with the sentiment, properly understood – I just bristle at the insistence certain stripes of Catholics have in insisting that the Vulgate is correct over and against every other ancient version.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 04:12:40 PM »
Putting aside Hebrew grammar questions (which are far above my head) it seems to me that if we can say Mary saves us, through her son, then we can likewise say she crushes the serpent's head.

Indeed. I've never had a problem with the sentiment, properly understood – I just bristle at the insistence certain stripes of Catholics have in insisting that the Vulgate is correct over and against every other ancient version.

Is that an instance of a sort of "Vulgate Only-ism?"
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 10:34:27 PM »
Putting aside Hebrew grammar questions (which are far above my head) it seems to me that if we can say Mary saves us, through her son, then we can likewise say she crushes the serpent's head.

Indeed. I've never had a problem with the sentiment, properly understood – I just bristle at the insistence certain stripes of Catholics have in insisting that the Vulgate is correct over and against every other ancient version.

Is that an instance of a sort of "Vulgate Only-ism?"

Yeah, it's pretty similar.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Luke

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2018, 12:00:58 AM »
3:15  וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית בֵּֽינְךָ וּבֵין הָֽאִשָּׁה וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵֽב׃ ס

Pertaining to the one doing the bruising, it looks like the noun, verb, and pronoun are masculine.  I am not sure why the extra הוּא is in there.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2018, 12:03:06 AM »
Putting aside Hebrew grammar questions (which are far above my head) it seems to me that if we can say Mary saves us, through her son, then we can likewise say she crushes the serpent's head.

Indeed. I've never had a problem with the sentiment, properly understood – I just bristle at the insistence certain stripes of Catholics have in insisting that the Vulgate is correct over and against every other ancient version.

Is that an instance of a sort of "Vulgate Only-ism?"

Yeah, it's pretty similar.

Odd considering that the Vulgate was controversial in its own day.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2018, 12:29:14 AM »
3:15  וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית בֵּֽינְךָ וּבֵין הָֽאִשָּׁה וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵֽב׃ ס

Pertaining to the one doing the bruising, it looks like the noun, verb, and pronoun are masculine.  I am not sure why the extra הוּא is in there.

I imagine it's mildly emphatic ("HE will do this, and YOU will do that"). An explicit subject pronoun is not terribly unusual, though it is probably more often omitted.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Is "she will crush your head" still technically correct?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2018, 02:30:54 AM »
No, the Hebrew pronoun is masculine, in agreement with the masculine zar'ah "her seed."
is always masculine, but הוא isn't always , it can be (feminine) too, though only in the Torah. See Exodus 2:2, where it refers to Jochebed. The Hebrew wording is ambiguous. The Targum (Aramaic paraphrase) and Septuagint (Greek translation used by the Orthodox Church to this day) seem to be unambiguously male, though.

In Exodus 2:2, הוא is in fact , referring to the son, not Jochebed:
וַתֵּ֤רֶא אֹתוֹ֙ כִּי־ט֣וֹב ה֔וּא
(Literally) and-seeing him that-good he => And seeing that he was good.

Even though the Masoretic Text does occasionally have הוא where היא would be expected, the MT points it differently to reflect the pronunciation. It is of course possible that the scribes didn't catch all of them, but here the masculine is required since the predicate adjective ט֣וֹב is masculine, and it is referring back to the masculine pronominal suffix on אֹתוֹ֙.
Oh, you are right.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.