Author Topic: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT  (Read 273 times)

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Offline Αριστοτελης

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The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« on: February 13, 2018, 12:13:08 AM »
From memory, Father Eugene Pentiuc said the Hebrew translation of the phrases in the OT referring to certain holy men: "they walked with God" and "they were well-pleasing to the Lord", says rather that they dwelt or conversed "face to face". According to the Hebrew translation, and the fact that Jesus said: "No-one has seen God", those holy men did not see the God the Father. Who then did they see face to face?
Perhaps they saw the Word Pre-Incarnate.
What are your thoughts?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 09:17:52 AM »
Fr. John Behr would have a bone to pick with you on how you word that question, and I think he is ultimately correct about this.  Especially your phrase “pre-incarnate Word.”  I think generally, the fathers would say the world was created by Christ, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”  The reason being is you tend to temporalize what is eternal in your question.  So the premise of your question needs to be rethought.

I would say to answer your question though that yes, they did see Christ in a mysterious way, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Αριστοτελης

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 01:11:20 PM »
Fr. John Behr would have a bone to pick with you on how you word that question, and I think he is ultimately correct about this.  Especially your phrase “pre-incarnate Word.”  I think generally, the fathers would say the world was created by Christ, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”  The reason being is you tend to temporalize what is eternal in your question.  So the premise of your question needs to be rethought.

I would say to answer your question though that yes, they did see Christ in a mysterious way, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”

Thank you for pointing out my terminology, I'll look further into it so i can be more accurate for future times.
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 01:23:40 PM »
I think generally, the fathers would say the world was created by Christ, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”  The reason being is you tend to temporalize what is eternal in your question.

I'm a little confused as to what this means. Can you please explain? :)
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Offline walterturkey

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 05:43:02 PM »
I think generally, the fathers would say the world was created by Christ, not the “pre-incarnate Word.”  The reason being is you tend to temporalize what is eternal in your question.

I'm a little confused as to what this means. Can you please explain? :)

The incarnation is something that happens  in a human timeline,
a.)Christ is eternally begotten of the Father before creation,
b.)Refering to Christ as the Pre-Incarnate Word emphasizes human existence over the Divine.
.:.
C.) it would be an error to refer to refer to Christ in the OT as the Pre-incarnate word

Probably, i could be wrong.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:43:27 PM by walterturkey »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 10:22:18 PM »
Fr John Behr explains it that way.  There’s a hymn we chant, “Christ was begotten from the Father before all ages, begotten from the Virgin in the fullness of time” or something like that.  So the question one can ask, does one happen “BEFORE” the other?  (Trick question)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:22:30 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 10:38:52 PM »
Fr John Behr explains it that way.  There’s a hymn we chant, “Christ was begotten from the Father before all ages, begotten from the Virgin in the fullness of time” or something like that.  So the question one can ask, does one happen “BEFORE” the other?  (Trick question)

I'm still super confused. But I suppose my simple mind is not meant to be able to comprehend the glorious mysteries of God's awesomeness. ❤
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:39:15 PM by LoveJoyPeace »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 10:57:12 PM »
Fr John Behr explains it that way.  There’s a hymn we chant, “Christ was begotten from the Father before all ages, begotten from the Virgin in the fullness of time” or something like that.  So the question one can ask, does one happen “BEFORE” the other?  (Trick question)

I'm still super confused. But I suppose my simple mind is not meant to be able to comprehend the glorious mysteries of God's awesomeness. ❤

Well, if God is outside of time, then it follows that "before" and "after" are only from our limited human perspective. All moments are eternally "now" to God. At least I think that's how it goes. By definition, it's something that's going to be hard for the human mind to grasp.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 11:10:59 PM »
Jesus or Word of God in Old Testament:
Genesis 15 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.


Genesis 15:2 2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me
So Abraham was calling Jesus that is Word of God as God as do Christians today. Muslims call Word of God or Jesus human and only prophet. Abraham proves them wrong.

There are other places as well. Do a search for word or Word of God or Word of the lord  or any combination in  old testament.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:15:30 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Αριστοτελης

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 11:41:51 PM »
Jesus or Word of God in Old Testament:
Genesis 15 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.


Genesis 15:2 2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me
So Abraham was calling Jesus that is Word of God as God as do Christians today. Muslims call Word of God or Jesus human and only prophet. Abraham proves them wrong.

There are other places as well. Do a search for word or Word of God or Word of the lord  or any combination in  old testament.

Thanks Pasadi, you make things easy to understand
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 09:22:58 AM »
Fr John Behr explains it that way.  There’s a hymn we chant, “Christ was begotten from the Father before all ages, begotten from the Virgin in the fullness of time” or something like that.  So the question one can ask, does one happen “BEFORE” the other?  (Trick question)

I'm still super confused. But I suppose my simple mind is not meant to be able to comprehend the glorious mysteries of God's awesomeness. ❤

"Better a real confusion than false certainty."  (Fr. Thomas Hopko)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Word of God in the OT
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 09:56:49 AM »
It is very interesting. When God says something in His Book, the Bible for some people there is no certainty even if they see it with their own eyes.
Now a Wise man comes in and contradicts what God says in Bible and suddenly a certainty comes in and here they are traveling in wrong direction.
Unfortunately I did not know does not always fly. Ask Adam and Eve tha t ate without full understanding of what they did. Were they sparred for not understanding.
5500 years they spent in Hell until being rescued bY Jesus
trueBetter confusion than false certainty.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:04:22 AM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.