Author Topic: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« on: February 08, 2018, 02:28:51 PM »
It seems that both Catholic and Orthodox apologetics promulgate the ideological position of who Saint Gregory the Great was in terms of his claims to ecclesiastical authority, with the Orthodox arguing that he absolutely didn't claim any authority and saw himself as first among equals (pointing to his letter to Eulogius, where he dislikes the term "command" and prefers "desire", and believes it to be prideful to be called "universal," as well as the whole universal bishop controversy), and with the Catholics claiming that he saw himself as the final authority and had authority over the whole Church (pointing to his quote "Who can no doubt the Church of Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, even our brother Emperor and Bishop of Constantinople constantly acknowledge it!" as well as his excessive use of connecting his See to Saint Peter, and his "annulling" of Saint John the Faster's councils and other councils / problems).

It seems difficult to reconcile the absolutes of either position by looking at both sides, so what exactly did Saint Gregory believe in terms of Papal Supremacy?

From what I can tell, it seems that Papal Supremacy definitely had its roots a little bit before Saint Gregory the Great, and he sees himself as having a greater role in "authority" over the whole Church, in much the same way the Russian Patriarch has "authority" over the Russian Church, but still not to the point of recognizing universal jurisdiction or infallibility.

But am I wrong in my reading of him? And why?
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 02:35:30 PM »
Quote
But am I wrong in my reading of him? And why?
We do have primacy in the Church, but in roman catholicsm this is mutated & exaggerated out of control, actually that mutation could have probably slipped by if it wasn't for the doctrinal differences that began to develop in the west, at which point the popes began to claim it is so by their supreme and absolute authority.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 03:40:44 PM »
It seems that both Catholic and Orthodox apologetics promulgate the ideological position of who Saint Gregory the Great was in terms of his claims to ecclesiastical authority, with the Orthodox arguing that he absolutely didn't claim any authority and saw himself as first among equals (pointing to his letter to Eulogius, where he dislikes the term "command" and prefers "desire", and believes it to be prideful to be called "universal," as well as the whole universal bishop controversy), and with the Catholics claiming that he saw himself as the final authority and had authority over the whole Church (pointing to his quote "Who can no doubt the Church of Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, even our brother Emperor and Bishop of Constantinople constantly acknowledge it!" as well as his excessive use of connecting his See to Saint Peter, and his "annulling" of Saint John the Faster's councils and other councils / problems).

It seems difficult to reconcile the absolutes of either position by looking at both sides, so what exactly did Saint Gregory believe in terms of Papal Supremacy?

From what I can tell, it seems that Papal Supremacy definitely had its roots a little bit before Saint Gregory the Great, and he sees himself as having a greater role in "authority" over the whole Church, in much the same way the Russian Patriarch has "authority" over the Russian Church, but still not to the point of recognizing universal jurisdiction or infallibility.

But am I wrong in my reading of him? And why?

A). I think you're close to right, though I claim no particular expertise or knowledge.

B). What exactly hinges on him being right or wrong?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 03:54:03 PM »
Like they say about Mao, he was 70% correct.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »
Like they say about Mao, he was 70% correct.

I would trust no more than 45 percent of my revolution to the peasants.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 06:17:52 AM »
Pope St. Gregory the Great teaches, in accordance with the canons of the Synod of Sardica presided over by St. Athanasius the Great, that the Roman Pontiff has the right to pass judgment on any bishops if they commit faults; and all such bishops have the duty to present themselves to him to obey his judgment; but in case there is no fault, all bishops are to preserve the bond of peace and charity among themselves in humility and simplicity as perfect disciples of Christ.

Thus "As to what they say of the Church of Constantinople, who doubts that it is subject to the Apostolic See? This is constantly owned by the most pious Emperor and by our brother and Bishop of that city." (Lib. ix., Ep. 12)
and again, "If any fault is found among bishops, I know not any one who is not subject to it (the Apostolic See); but when no fault requires otherwise, all are equal according to the estimation of humility." (Lib. ix., Ep. 59)

And finally "Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?...Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles...received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate." (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep 7)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 06:18:21 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 02:18:27 PM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.




« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 02:22:03 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 05:12:47 AM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

Even at the council of Florence Mark of Ephesus openly confesss Rome’s position as premier amongst churches with her authority. He just wanted Rome to deny the filioque to be granted her privileges back from his point of view.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 09:15:54 AM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

LOL.

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
You will never dissuade me from being a faithful member of the Orthodox Church.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 01:19:12 PM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

LOL.

You find facts funny? Lol
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 01:37:08 PM »
You find facts funny? Lol
Since when your non-sense equals facts ? Notice, i was so happy with your self-repudiating reply i didn't even reply to you.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 01:38:13 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 09:25:59 PM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

LOL.

You find facts funny? Lol

What facts?  There are no facts in your post.  Alexandria is not mentioned at all in Chalcedon 28, its rationale for Roman primacy has nothing to do with Vatican mythology, and the one Chalcedonian canon which does mention Alexandria (30) also argues against the modern Roman pseudofaith.  Not that anyone should reasonably expect clarity and consistency from that council.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 07:29:33 PM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

LOL.

You find facts funny? Lol

What facts?  There are no facts in your post.  Alexandria is not mentioned at all in Chalcedon 28, its rationale for Roman primacy has nothing to do with Vatican mythology, and the one Chalcedonian canon which does mention Alexandria (30) also argues against the modern Roman pseudofaith.  Not that anyone should reasonably expect clarity and consistency from that council.

Lol even the patriarchs onf Constantinople disagree with you. They (together with the Emperors of said city) who were elevated by this canon ,which Rome and Alexandria never accepted because it violated Nicaea, testify of their inequality to Rome and the authority of the Pope:

Patriarch St. Flavian the Martyr of Constantinople in 449 (Epistle to Pope St. Leo I the Great of Rome):

”Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod, which is obedient to Your Holiness, at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred my way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar. ... Therefore, I beseech Your Holiness not to permit these things to be treated with indifference ... but to rise up first on behalf of the cause of our orthodox Faith, now destroyed by unlawful acts. ... Further to issue an authoritative instruction ... so that a like faith may everywhere be preached by the assembly of an united synod of fathers, both Eastern and Western. Thus the laws of the fathers may prevail and all that has been done amiss be rendered null and void. Bring healing to this ghastly wound.”

Byzantine Emperor St. Marcian says in 450 (Letter 73 to Pope St. Leo I the Great of Rome in Mansi):

In all that concerns the Catholic religion and the faith of Christians, we have thought it right to approach in the first place Your Holiness who is overseer and guardian of the divine faith.

Patriarch St. Menas of Constantinople says in 536 (Sentence Against ex-Patriarch Anthimus of Constantinople at Local Council of Constantinople in):

“Indeed Agapetus of holy memory, Pope of Old Rome, giving him time for repentance until he should receive whatever the holy fathers defined, did not allow him to be called either a priest or a Catholic... we follow and obey the Apostolic Throne; we are in communion with those with whom it is in communion, and we condemn those whom it condemns.”

Patriarch St. Ignatius of Constantinople says (in his letter read in the Third Session of the Eighth Council, Letter to Pope St. Nicholas I  of Rome)

“… saying to Peter, the greatest of the Apostles: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." And again, "I will give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be bound in Heaven." For such blessed words He did not circumscribe and define to the Prince [εξαρκος] of the Apostles alone by a kind of chance, but through him he transmitted them to all who, after him as his successors, were to be made chief pastors and divine and sacred pontiffs of elder Rome.”

Some very odd things they are saying if Rome and Constantinople were equal. They must have forgotten. Heck even at the council of Florence they easterners did not dare to claim this.

If this were true that Rome and Constantinople were now equal why didn’t the Eastern bishops know this? For example  Metropolitan Sergius of Cyprus says in 649 (in a letter read in Session 2 of the Council of the Lateran, Letter to Pope Theodore I of Rome);

”O Holy Head, Christ our God hath destined thy Apostolic See to be an immovable foundation and a pillar of the Faith. For thou art, as the Divine Word truly saith, Peter, and on thee as a foundation-stone have the pillars of the Church been fixed."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:34:48 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 07:32:11 PM »
You find facts funny? Lol
Since when your non-sense equals facts ? Notice, i was so happy with your self-repudiating reply i didn't even reply to you.

Because you have no reply to the truth. The truth cannot be refuted. Like your or predecessors at the council of Florence,  in the famous words of Bessarion (bishop of Nicaea), you are deprived of a just argument from every direction so you choose to remain silent.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:34:12 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 08:10:52 PM »
You find facts funny? Lol
Since when your non-sense equals facts ? Notice, i was so happy with your self-repudiating reply i didn't even reply to you.

Because you have no reply to the truth. The truth cannot be refuted. Like your or predecessors at the council of Florence,  in the famous words of Bessarion (bishop of Nicaea), you are deprived of a just argument from every direction so you choose to remain silent.

Feeling a bit self-important, are we?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 09:34:00 PM »
Canon 28 of chalcedon raises the status of Constantinople to be the same as that of Rome, and although Pope St Leo personally objected it, the entirety of the council of chalcedon was confirmed by each consecutive ecumenical council in a binding manner.

This is not true. It raised it to the status of Alexandria. That’s why even later Patriarchs of Constantinople and emperors always acknowledged Rome as head and being subject to her. St Leo never challenged Canon 28 on the grounds of it claiming equality but rather on it violating the canons of Nicaea in usurping the throne of Alexandria as second.

LOL.

You find facts funny? Lol

What facts?  There are no facts in your post.  Alexandria is not mentioned at all in Chalcedon 28, its rationale for Roman primacy has nothing to do with Vatican mythology, and the one Chalcedonian canon which does mention Alexandria (30) also argues against the modern Roman pseudofaith.  Not that anyone should reasonably expect clarity and consistency from that council.

Lol even the patriarchs onf Constantinople disagree with you. They (together with the Emperors of said city) who were elevated by this canon ,which Rome and Alexandria never accepted because it violated Nicaea, testify of their inequality to Rome and the authority of the Pope:

I omitted the rest because it's irrelevant.  You said Chalcedon 28 raised Constantinople to the status of Alexandria and not to the status of Rome, and that's just not true.  That's not at all what the canon says, literally or otherwise. 

Quote
Some very odd things they are saying if Rome and Constantinople were equal. They must have forgotten. Heck even at the council of Florence they easterners did not dare to claim this.

If this were true that Rome and Constantinople were now equal why didn’t the Eastern bishops know this? For example  Metropolitan Sergius of Cyprus says in 649...

Rome is like if you told a woman she was beautiful and sexy and smelled like roses and nothing could ever change that, and you say it in order to impress and charm her, but she really believes you and stops bathing, grooming herself, washing her clothes, etc., and when people question her on how unhealthy she is and how much she's let herself go, she refers them to how you once told her she was beautiful and sexy and smelled like roses and nothing could ever change that. 

Offline augustin717

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 09:57:39 PM »
Our late metropolitan Nicolae, even though an ecumenist after communism, wrote a bit piece back in the fifties -Perhaps at the behest of some Party bureaucrat- and had it published in one of the official magazines of the ROC, "Studii Teologice" if memory serves . In it he destroyed papal claims so thoroughly that by the end of the article he reached the conclusion that Peter  ever sat foot in Rome and that's just a pious, self-aggrandizing fabrication of the Roman bishops. Quite radical.
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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 10:44:31 PM »
Yes, the Church is founded upon the solidity of Peter, which is not Peter himself but what he confessed. Now it is clear, the Church is built upon the foundation of the prophets, apostles and Jesus the chief cornerstone. The Church has 12 walls, each wall having on it an apostle's name.
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 10:46:20 PM »
The Church has 12 walls, each wall having on it an apostle's name.

???
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 10:48:44 PM »
The Church has 12 walls, each wall having on it an apostle's name.

???

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Revelation 21.14

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 11:03:19 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.
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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2018, 11:07:15 PM »
Yes, the Church is founded upon the solidity of Peter, which is not Peter himself but what he confessed. Now it is clear, the Church is built upon the foundation of the prophets, apostles and Jesus the chief cornerstone. The Church has 12 walls, each wall having on it an apostle's name.

That's a good point actually. Why wouldn't Peter be singled out as more of a cornerstone than the other 11, if Sts. John or Paul were Papal Supremacists?
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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 11:10:04 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. Good thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:13:01 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 11:12:32 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 11:13:42 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 11:20:24 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.
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Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 11:32:17 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

There have been lots of commentaries on it by Orthodox Christians. Here's one that was translated by Eugenia Constantinou and recently published.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 11:36:59 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be. I was just looking to learn more about that position.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 11:37:40 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

There have been lots of commentaries on it by Orthodox Christians. Here's one that was translated by Eugenia Constantinou and recently published.

Hmmph. Still been told to avoid it.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 01:44:35 AM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

You heard wrong.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 04:18:26 AM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.

That you were received a while ago doesn't seem to have made you one either.

What harm would there be here engaging with Volnutt in good faith?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 04:21:32 AM by Hawkeye »
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2018, 10:38:21 AM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.

Don't be a jerk.

Several orthodox commentaries, both ancient and modern, exist, written by bishops and other more-than-catechumens, so obviously the view that it can't be interpreted is far from universal.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:41:29 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline biro

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2018, 01:00:31 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.

That you were received a while ago doesn't seem to have made you one either.

What harm would there be here engaging with Volnutt in good faith?

I don't think that's what he meant.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 01:53:39 PM »
You find facts funny? Lol
Since when your non-sense equals facts ? Notice, i was so happy with your self-repudiating reply i didn't even reply to you.

Because you have no reply to the truth. The truth cannot be refuted. Like your or predecessors at the council of Florence,  in the famous words of Bessarion (bishop of Nicaea), you are deprived of a just argument from every direction so you choose to remain silent.
Is this your way of asking me "kindly" to explain to you why you are wrong ?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 02:15:30 PM »
Rome is like if you told a woman she was beautiful and sexy and smelled like roses and nothing could ever change that, and you say it in order to impress and charm her, but she really believes you and stops bathing, grooming herself, washing her clothes, etc., and when people question her on how unhealthy she is and how much she's let herself go, she refers them to how you once told her she was beautiful and sexy and smelled like roses and nothing could ever change that.

Awesome analogy!  I’m going to borrow that!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2018, 03:04:58 PM »
I thought Revelation couldn't be interpreted.

I'd say that it can't be neatly mapped on to political or historical events beyond the very general ("the Roman Emperor persecutes the Church and false prophets pervert true religion, and that's terrible. God thing Jesus will win in the end."), but that doesn't mean it can't be interpreted for anything.

Not what I heard.

Link or summary?

None of your business.

Not even a catechumen, and suddenly you're an expert.

That you were received a while ago doesn't seem to have made you one either.

What harm would there be here engaging with Volnutt in good faith?

I don't think that's what he meant.

Huh, I thought that I responded to this.

Biro, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off like I was trying to bait you or lord anything over you. I don't want to think I'm an expert on anything. I was just wondering what your perspective was and why you think Revelation can't be interpreted.

I can understand if you don't believe me, though. No hard feelings.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 03:06:03 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2018, 03:46:53 PM »
I am sorry too.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Will the Real Saint Gregory the Great Please Stand Up?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2018, 07:14:17 PM »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.