Author Topic: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox  (Read 1150 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« on: January 27, 2018, 10:03:22 PM »
So, I read a text on Facebook claiming the OO's weren't in communion with each other until Anglican influence made so in 1965 (presumably a reference to the Addis Ababa Conference). This sounds like conspiracy theory to me, I'm aware Syriac OO's were saying Armenians were heretics some time in the Early Middle Ages, and that there were jurisdictional issues when the Copts consecrated their first bishop to Jerusalem, but what the text said sounds extremely far-fetched to me, since I recall reading about the good relationship between Armenians and other OO's in the Middle East (one particular Armenian, Yuhanna al-Armani, becoming one of the greatest iconographers of the Coptic Church) and about constant relationships between Alexandria and Antioch (including a Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius Benham Hadliyo, being consecrated by the Copts for some reason):

Quote
The Copts-Ethiopians were considered heretics by the other two groups because they were Judaizers, they practiced circumcision, they abstained from pork and shellfish, although this was more applicable in Ethiopia than in Egypt. The Jacobites-Indians were considered heretical by the others because they rejected the Book of Revelation, they fasted from sunset to sunset instead of morning to night, etc, and because they adhered to the corruptibility doctrine of Severus. The Gregorian Armenians were considered heretics by the Copts and Jacobites because the Armenians adhered to the incorruptibility heresy of Julian of Halicarnasus, because they used flat wafers instead of proper bread for the communion host, because they didn't mix water into the communion cup, because they ended lent early and ate meat on Holy Saturday, and several other reasons. The three groups considered each other anathema from the 6th century until 1965.

Where is this coming from? Is there any truth in such conflicts between the three main groups? Was the Conference of Addis Ababa really influenced by Anglican ecumenism?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 10:38:25 PM »
Ignatius Benham Hadliyo
Correction: It's actually *Behnam, and it was actually his predecessor, Baselius Simon, who was consecrated.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »
Load of rubbish.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2018, 12:01:39 PM »
Load of rubbish.
Well, I got that part, Father, but I'd like to know further. :P
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2018, 12:02:08 PM »
The schism between the Armenians and the Syriacs was resolved at the 8th century council of Manzikert. It’s probably true that the idea of a global Oriental Orthodox communion is fairly modern but I suspect that geography and communication have a lot more to do with that than any hard theological disputes.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 12:08:10 PM »
The schism between the Armenians and the Syriacs was resolved at the 8th century council of Manzikert. It’s probably true that the idea of a global Oriental Orthodox communion is fairly modern but I suspect that geography and communication have a lot more to do with that than any hard theological disputes.
Found an old thread about it.
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Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 09:45:05 PM »
The only dispute I recognize as true in this FB post is the one regarding Julian of Halicarnasus between Armenians and the Syriacs but as Iconodule mentioned, this was resolved at the council of Manzikert in the 8th century. As for the rest,the FB user should at least provide proof of these anathemas.Where are the judaizer-related anathemas? Where is the anathema that is related to flat wafers and not mixing water into the communion cup? Where is the anathema related to rejection of the Book of Revelation, fasting from sunset to sunset  and adhering to the "corruptibility doctrine of Severus"(whatever that means)? Where are these anathemas? Unless I see proof of these anathemas existing, I can only receive the bulk of this post as unsubstantiated claims.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 09:55:58 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation? I thought it was the ACOE who reject it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 09:56:25 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 10:30:25 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation? I thought it was the ACOE who reject it.
The Peshitta doesn't have the Book of Revelation, historically, but it has been later translated. I have no idea how widespread these copies are. Fact is not having a book on one's Bible doesn't mean it's heresy. It never did. We make it very clear by having an open canon, and in the West St. Jerome and even late Pope Clement VIII made it extremely clear in their Bible translations. Of course none of these cases touch books as important for us Orthodox as those the Peshitta New Testament traditionally doesn't have, but this doesn't mean they think it's heresy or something, it's just their tradition. May Mor correct me if I'm wrong. I hope he pops up soon.  :angel:
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Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 11:06:49 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation? I thought it was the ACOE who reject it.
The Peshitta doesn't have the Book of Revelation, historically, but it has been later translated. I have no idea how widespread these copies are. Fact is not having a book on one's Bible doesn't mean it's heresy. It never did. We make it very clear by having an open canon, and in the West St. Jerome and even late Pope Clement VIII made it extremely clear in their Bible translations. Of course none of these cases touch books as important for us Orthodox as those the Peshitta New Testament traditionally doesn't have, but this doesn't mean they think it's heresy or something, it's just their tradition. May Mor correct me if I'm wrong. I hope he pops up soon.  :angel:

Makes sense.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 11:11:31 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation?

Reject?  No.  But technically it is not part of the canon of Scripture.  Nevertheless, it is included in Bibles and has definitely been read by more of the faithful than I Clement, which technically is in the canon of Scripture. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 11:11:47 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline biro

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 11:13:32 PM »
Wow. I did not know that.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 11:14:22 PM »
Where is this coming from?

The author's behind. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 11:16:35 PM »
It’s probably true that the idea of a global Oriental Orthodox communion is fairly modern but I suspect that geography and communication have a lot more to do with that than any hard theological disputes.

This.  And even then, we have evidence of interaction and intercommunion throughout history. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2018, 11:17:03 AM »
It’s probably true that the idea of a global Oriental Orthodox communion is fairly modern but I suspect that geography and communication have a lot more to do with that than any hard theological disputes.

This.  And even then, we have evidence of interaction and intercommunion throughout history.

I guess the easiest place to address this question would be Jerusalem, where all the OO churches have a presence, and see how they have interacted with each other over the ages.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 11:49:28 AM »
The problem with addressing an OP like this is that it requires a lot of work to produce evidence which seems a waste of time, in relation to the original FB post, since it is so bogus. It would be like posting on FB that Henry VIII was secretly an Eastern Orthodox and intended to bring the Church of England into union with Constantinople. This is manifestly untrue and took me 5 seconds to write but would take hours of work to seriously refute - yet it is still bogus.

The mixture of communities in various places, Patriarchs of different ethnicities, the writings of late authors such as Bar Salibi about the non-Chalcedonians as a community, all indicate that the original FB post is just bogus polemics. Like the idea that the OO never called themselves Orthodox until the 20th century.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 11:52:52 AM »
It’s probably true that the idea of a global Oriental Orthodox communion is fairly modern but I suspect that geography and communication have a lot more to do with that than any hard theological disputes.

This.  And even then, we have evidence of interaction and intercommunion throughout history.

I guess the easiest place to address this question would be Jerusalem, where all the OO churches have a presence, and see how they have interacted with each other over the ages.
I remember an occasion (although the date escapes me) of a Coptic Pope appointing (due to external political circumstances) a bishop for the Syriacs in Jerusalem, and in turn allowing the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch appointing the Abuna (the Papal exarch) in Ethiopia to make up for it.

A large part of the isolation of the OO came from the disappearance of Greek as a common Koine-due to animus against Arabic as the "Muslims' language", it couldn't fulfill the role to the same extent. (although we do get things, for instance, like a 13th century Arabic catalog of Churches and Monasteries in Egypt, done by an Armenian).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 11:56:33 AM »
The problem with addressing an OP like this is that it requires a lot of work to produce evidence which seems a waste of time, in relation to the original FB post, since it is so bogus. It would be like posting on FB that Henry VIII was secretly an Eastern Orthodox and intended to bring the Church of England into union with Constantinople. This is manifestly untrue and took me 5 seconds to write but would take hours of work to seriously refute - yet it is still bogus.
But the case of the Non-Jurors with the Orthodox would be easy to argue.
The mixture of communities in various places, Patriarchs of different ethnicities, the writings of late authors such as Bar Salibi about the non-Chalcedonians as a community, all indicate that the original FB post is just bogus polemics. Like the idea that the OO never called themselves Orthodox until the 20th century.
The example of the Armenians with multiple Catholicoi would raise issues as to the definition of "community."
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2018, 01:15:34 PM »
The book of Revelation is in modern versions of the Peshitta, like the widespread British and Foreign Bible Society edition done by Samuel Lee. But it is not part of the lectionary; then again, it's not part of the Byzantine lectionary, either. Of course, these Protestant editions are not terribly useful for understanding the history of the Syriac canon – the Lee edition omits Psalm 151, which certainly is part of the historic Syriac canon.

The Apocalypse seems to have been admitted to the canon (whatever that actually means) fairly late by just about everyone.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 01:24:20 PM »
The book of Revelation is in modern versions of the Peshitta, like the widespread British and Foreign Bible Society edition done by Samuel Lee. But it is not part of the lectionary; then again, it's not part of the Byzantine lectionary, either. Of course, these Protestant editions are not terribly useful for understanding the history of the Syriac canon – the Lee edition omits Psalm 151, which certainly is part of the historic Syriac canon.

The Apocalypse seems to have been admitted to the canon (whatever that actually means) fairly late by just about everyone.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation? I thought it was the ACOE who reject it.

They do not.  Fr. George from St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East in Tarzana even led a bible study on it a few years ago. Its simply that the book is not in their lectionary, nor is it in most East Syriac copies of the Peshitta; it was not, as has been noted, in the initial version, but since that time all pf the books of the Athanasian Canon have been added, and multiple Asshrian priests assure me this entire canon is accepted as valid.

However, there is obviously a distinction between those books which are in the lectionary and those which are not, in the context of the ancient churches before the printing press made complete bibles easily obtainable.  In ancient times the Apocalypse would have been obscure and inaccessible to many Assyrian clergy, and unknown to many of the faithful, since it was not read in church and since the Peshitta manuscripts owned by the Church of the East usually did not have the extra books from the Athanasian canon (these were usually found in newer Syriac Orthodox, and presumably, Maronite, manuscripts).
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2018, 04:07:18 PM »
The problem with addressing an OP like this is that it requires a lot of work to produce evidence which seems a waste of time, in relation to the original FB post, since it is so bogus. It would be like posting on FB that Henry VIII was secretly an Eastern Orthodox and intended to bring the Church of England into union with Constantinople. This is manifestly untrue and took me 5 seconds to write but would take hours of work to seriously refute - yet it is still bogus.

The mixture of communities in various places, Patriarchs of different ethnicities, the writings of late authors such as Bar Salibi about the non-Chalcedonians as a community, all indicate that the original FB post is just bogus polemics. Like the idea that the OO never called themselves Orthodox until the 20th century.
Is there any backed up text out there covering the historical intercommunion between non-Chalcedonian churches? If not, maybe one should write it, not because of a Facebook hoax, but rather because this sounds like a very important topic.
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Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2018, 05:43:01 PM »
Have the Malankara ever even rejected Revelation? I thought it was the ACOE who reject it.

They do not.  Fr. George from St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East in Tarzana even led a bible study on it a few years ago. Its simply that the book is not in their lectionary, nor is it in most East Syriac copies of the Peshitta; it was not, as has been noted, in the initial version, but since that time all pf the books of the Athanasian Canon have been added, and multiple Asshrian priests assure me this entire canon is accepted as valid.

However, there is obviously a distinction between those books which are in the lectionary and those which are not, in the context of the ancient churches before the printing press made complete bibles easily obtainable.  In ancient times the Apocalypse would have been obscure and inaccessible to many Assyrian clergy, and unknown to many of the faithful, since it was not read in church and since the Peshitta manuscripts owned by the Church of the East usually did not have the extra books from the Athanasian canon (these were usually found in newer Syriac Orthodox, and presumably, Maronite, manuscripts).

Ok. Thanks.
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Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Historical intercommunion between the Oriental Orthodox
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2018, 08:32:08 PM »
The problem with addressing an OP like this is that it requires a lot of work to produce evidence which seems a waste of time, in relation to the original FB post, since it is so bogus. It would be like posting on FB that Henry VIII was secretly an Eastern Orthodox and intended to bring the Church of England into union with Constantinople. This is manifestly untrue and took me 5 seconds to write but would take hours of work to seriously refute - yet it is still bogus.

The mixture of communities in various places, Patriarchs of different ethnicities, the writings of late authors such as Bar Salibi about the non-Chalcedonians as a community, all indicate that the original FB post is just bogus polemics. Like the idea that the OO never called themselves Orthodox until the 20th century.
Is there any backed up text out there covering the historical intercommunion between non-Chalcedonian churches? If not, maybe one should write it, not because of a Facebook hoax, but rather because this sounds like a very important topic.


 I can’t find much information on say Copts and indians historical interaction. I suspect historically, contact with indians was limited due to geography. but there is info on say Copts and Armenians in Egypt. While they have been a modestly sized group, Armenians have still had presence in Egypt since at least the 6th century


"An Armenian Patriarch was even consecrated by the name of Gregory in Alexandria, to head the Armenian Church in Egypt, he was received with great honor by the Egyptians. “

Here is also this bit

" Pope Cyril on this occasion issued a manifesto or legal declaration, stating that the National Church of Egypt, Abyssinia, Nubia, Syria, and Armenia were united in bearing testimony to the ancient catholic faith”

https://books.google.com/books?id=OpIgDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=%22Pope+Cyril+on+this+occasion+issued+a+manifesto+or+legal+declaration,+stating+that+the+National+Church+of+Egypt,+Abyssinia,+Nubia,+Syria,+and+Armenia+were+united+in+bearing+testimony+to+the+ancient+catholic+faith%22&source=bl&ots=jSLsj5Wp9Y&sig=WxQXaL296fAIR5srZPfS0F1zTl8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO_oKctv7YAhUOy1MKHendAnIQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=%22Pope%20Cyril%20on%20this%20occasion%20issued%20a%20manifesto%20or%20legal%20declaration%2C%20stating%20that%20the%20National%20Church%20of%20Egypt%2C%20Abyssinia%2C%20Nubia%2C%20Syria%2C%20and%20Armenia%20were%20united%20in%20bearing%20testimony%20to%20the%20ancient%20catholic%20faith%22&f=false