Author Topic: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.  (Read 5356 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2018, 08:48:41 PM »
The parable of the sower is apt here.  What kind of ground do you think Marx's heart was to begin with?  Had it been fertile, do you think Darwin's books would have had the same effect?  What could have made the difference for his heart?

Not a bad point. We could compare Marx with Theodosius Dobzhansky, the Russian Orthodox geneticist and biologist (one of the fathers of the "Modern Synthesis" between genetics and evolution) who said that "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

The fact that Hitler twisted the work of Robert Koch on germ theory to let him exterminate Jews (contrary to popular rhetoric, I don't think he ever really referred to Darwin) doesn't invalidate modern medicine.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2018, 09:15:43 PM »
Quote
Asteriktos, "Evolutionism" is not just natural selection, which is true; no one denies natural selection.
I deny natural selection, it is God who blesses and is the source of all good gifts and strengths, it is God Who allows thw wicked to recieve false gifts from the evil one, it is God who allows people to fall down or to rise up. It is not natural selection, there are invisible principles, that often lead to most unexpected results.

So the dinosaurs died off... because they were wicked? ???
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 09:16:32 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2018, 11:24:54 PM »
It wasn't so long ago that the Roman church proclaimed every year: "In the 5199th year of the creation of the world, etc. etc. The Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh."  It's kind of a pity they changed it to "when ages beyond number had run their course from the creation of the world..."

Actually, I wonder if the Western Rite Orthodox read that before Midnight Mass. Couldn't find an instruction to do so, in what's posted on the ROCOR WR site.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2018, 11:39:57 PM »
It wasn't so long ago that the Roman church proclaimed every year: "In the 5199th year of the creation of the world, etc. etc. The Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh."  It's kind of a pity they changed it to "when ages beyond number had run their course from the creation of the world..."

Actually, I wonder if the Western Rite Orthodox read that before Midnight Mass. Couldn't find an instruction to do so, in what's posted on the ROCOR WR site.

Science aside, numbers like that rest on the assumption that the Biblical genealogies are perfectly, inerrantly preserved and that they don't skip over any generations. Can we really be so confident as to assign that kind of exact number?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2018, 01:47:23 AM »
Antonis, what is your belief  on the matter of evolution/creation?

Vanhyo, what is your belief on the topic of doing violence to bishops?
i dont support/approve of that
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:48:06 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Xavier

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2018, 08:06:12 AM »
Although written some years ago and thus addressing the evolutionary fables of that time, the following is an incontrovertible demonstration from simple mathematics that evolutionary timescales are hopelessly mistaken. http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html

Quote
The following is the first of fifty arguments against the evolution of man.
1. THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD

The population of the world, based upon the Berlin census reports of 1922, was found to be 1,804,187,000. The human race must double itself 30.75 times to make this number. This result may be approximately ascertained by the following computations:
At the beginning of the first period of doubling there would just be two human beings; the second, 4; the third, 8; the fourth, 16; the tenth, 1024; the twentieth 1,048,576, the thirtieth, 1,073,741,824; and the thirty-first, 2,147,483,648. In other words, if we raise two to the thirtieth power, we have 1,073,741,824; or to the thirty-first power, 2,147,483,648 Therefore, it is evident even to the school boy, that, to have the present population of the globe, the net population must be doubled more than thirty times and less than thirty-one times. By logarithms, we find it to be 30.75 times. After all allowances are made for natural deaths, wars, catastrophes, and losses of all kinds, if the human race would double its numbers 30.75 times, we would have the present population of the globe.
Now, according to the chronology of Hales, based on the Septuagint text, 5077 years have elapsed since the flood, and 5177 years since the ancestors of mankind numbered only two, Noah and his wife. By dividing 5177 by 30.75, we find it requires an average of 168.3 years for the human race to double its numbers, in order to make the present population. This is a reasonable average length of time.
Moreover, it is singularly confirmed by the number of Jews, or descendants of Jacob. According to Hales, 3850 years have passed since the marriage of Jacob. By the same method of calculation as above, the Jews, who, according to the Jewish yearbook for 1922, number 15,393, 815, must have doubled their numbers 23.8758 times, or once every 161.251 years. The whole human race, therefore, on an average has doubled its numbers every 168.3 years; and the Jews, every 161.251 years. What a marvelous agreement! We would not expect the figure to be exactly the same nor be greatly surprised if one period were twice the other. But their correspondence singularly corroborates the age of the human race and of the Jewish people, as gleaned from the word of God by the most proficient chronologists. If the human race is 2,000,000 years old, the period of doubling would be 65,040 years, or 402 times that of the Jews, which, of course, is unthinkable.
While the period of doubling may vary slightly in different ages, yet there are few things so stable and certain as general average, where large numbers and many years are considered, as in the present case. No life insurance company, acting on general average statistics, ever failed on that account. The Jews and the whole human race have lived together the same thirty-eight centuries with very little intermarriage, and are affected by similar advantages and disadvantages, making the comparison remarkably fair.
Also, the 25,000,000 descendants of Abraham must have doubled their numbers every 162.275 years, during the 3,988 years since the birth of his son Ishmael. These periods of doubling which tally so closely, 168.3 years for the whole race, 161.251 for the Jews, and 162.275 years for the descendants of Abraham, cannot be a mere coincidence, but are a demonstration against the great age of man required by evolution, and in favor of the 5,177 years since Noah. None of the other various chronologies would make any material difference in these calculations. The correspondence of these figures, 168.3, 161.251 and 162.275 is so remarkable that it must bring the conviction to every serious student that the flood destroyed mankind and Noah became the head of the race.
Now the evolutionists claim that the human race is 2,000,000 years old. There is no good reason for believing that, during all these years the developing dominant species would not increase as rapidly as the Jews, or the human race in historic times, especially since the restraints of civilization and marriage did not exist. But let us generously suppose that these remote ancestors, beginning with one pair, doubled their numbers in 1612.51 years one-tenth as rapidly as the Jews, or 1240 times in 2,000,000 years. If we raise 2 to the 1240th power, the result is 18,932,139,737,991 with 360 figures following. The population of the world, therefore, would have been 18,932,139,737,991 decillion, decillion, decillion. decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion; or 18,932,139,737,991 vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion.
Or, let us suppose that man, the dominant species, originated from a single pair, only 100,000 years ago, the shortest period suggested by any evolutionist (and much too short for evolution) and that the population doubled in 1612.51 years, one-tenth the Jewish rate of net increase, a most generous estimate. The present population of the globe should be 4,660,210,253,138,204,300 or 2,527,570,733 for every man, woman and child! In these calculations, we have made greater allowances than any self-respecting evolutionist could ask without blushing. And yet withal, it is as clear as the light of day that the ancestors of man could not possibly have lived 2,000,000 or 1,000,000 or 100,000 years ago, or even 10,000 years ago; for if the population had increased at the Jewish rate for 10,000 years, it would be more than two billion times as great as it is. No guess that ever was made, or ever can be made, much in excess of 5177 years, can possibly stand as the age of man. The evolutionist cannot sidestep this argument by a new guess. Q. E. D.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2018, 08:25:02 AM »
Although written some years ago and thus addressing the evolutionary fables of that time, the following is an incontrovertible demonstration from simple mathematics that evolutionary timescales are hopelessly mistaken. http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html

Quote
The following is the first of fifty arguments against the evolution of man.
1. THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD

The population of the world, based upon the Berlin census reports of 1922, was found to be 1,804,187,000. The human race must double itself 30.75 times to make this number. This result may be approximately ascertained by the following computations:
At the beginning of the first period of doubling there would just be two human beings; the second, 4; the third, 8; the fourth, 16; the tenth, 1024; the twentieth 1,048,576, the thirtieth, 1,073,741,824; and the thirty-first, 2,147,483,648. In other words, if we raise two to the thirtieth power, we have 1,073,741,824; or to the thirty-first power, 2,147,483,648 Therefore, it is evident even to the school boy, that, to have the present population of the globe, the net population must be doubled more than thirty times and less than thirty-one times. By logarithms, we find it to be 30.75 times. After all allowances are made for natural deaths, wars, catastrophes, and losses of all kinds, if the human race would double its numbers 30.75 times, we would have the present population of the globe.
Now, according to the chronology of Hales, based on the Septuagint text, 5077 years have elapsed since the flood, and 5177 years since the ancestors of mankind numbered only two, Noah and his wife. By dividing 5177 by 30.75, we find it requires an average of 168.3 years for the human race to double its numbers, in order to make the present population. This is a reasonable average length of time.
Moreover, it is singularly confirmed by the number of Jews, or descendants of Jacob. According to Hales, 3850 years have passed since the marriage of Jacob. By the same method of calculation as above, the Jews, who, according to the Jewish yearbook for 1922, number 15,393, 815, must have doubled their numbers 23.8758 times, or once every 161.251 years. The whole human race, therefore, on an average has doubled its numbers every 168.3 years; and the Jews, every 161.251 years. What a marvelous agreement! We would not expect the figure to be exactly the same nor be greatly surprised if one period were twice the other. But their correspondence singularly corroborates the age of the human race and of the Jewish people, as gleaned from the word of God by the most proficient chronologists. If the human race is 2,000,000 years old, the period of doubling would be 65,040 years, or 402 times that of the Jews, which, of course, is unthinkable.
While the period of doubling may vary slightly in different ages, yet there are few things so stable and certain as general average, where large numbers and many years are considered, as in the present case. No life insurance company, acting on general average statistics, ever failed on that account. The Jews and the whole human race have lived together the same thirty-eight centuries with very little intermarriage, and are affected by similar advantages and disadvantages, making the comparison remarkably fair.
Also, the 25,000,000 descendants of Abraham must have doubled their numbers every 162.275 years, during the 3,988 years since the birth of his son Ishmael. These periods of doubling which tally so closely, 168.3 years for the whole race, 161.251 for the Jews, and 162.275 years for the descendants of Abraham, cannot be a mere coincidence, but are a demonstration against the great age of man required by evolution, and in favor of the 5,177 years since Noah. None of the other various chronologies would make any material difference in these calculations. The correspondence of these figures, 168.3, 161.251 and 162.275 is so remarkable that it must bring the conviction to every serious student that the flood destroyed mankind and Noah became the head of the race.
Now the evolutionists claim that the human race is 2,000,000 years old. There is no good reason for believing that, during all these years the developing dominant species would not increase as rapidly as the Jews, or the human race in historic times, especially since the restraints of civilization and marriage did not exist. But let us generously suppose that these remote ancestors, beginning with one pair, doubled their numbers in 1612.51 years one-tenth as rapidly as the Jews, or 1240 times in 2,000,000 years. If we raise 2 to the 1240th power, the result is 18,932,139,737,991 with 360 figures following. The population of the world, therefore, would have been 18,932,139,737,991 decillion, decillion, decillion. decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion; or 18,932,139,737,991 vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion.
Or, let us suppose that man, the dominant species, originated from a single pair, only 100,000 years ago, the shortest period suggested by any evolutionist (and much too short for evolution) and that the population doubled in 1612.51 years, one-tenth the Jewish rate of net increase, a most generous estimate. The present population of the globe should be 4,660,210,253,138,204,300 or 2,527,570,733 for every man, woman and child! In these calculations, we have made greater allowances than any self-respecting evolutionist could ask without blushing. And yet withal, it is as clear as the light of day that the ancestors of man could not possibly have lived 2,000,000 or 1,000,000 or 100,000 years ago, or even 10,000 years ago; for if the population had increased at the Jewish rate for 10,000 years, it would be more than two billion times as great as it is. No guess that ever was made, or ever can be made, much in excess of 5177 years, can possibly stand as the age of man. The evolutionist cannot sidestep this argument by a new guess. Q. E. D.
The above is incontrovertibly complete bs.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:26:04 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2018, 08:47:18 AM »
I figured that argument was some non-believer's attempt at trolling believers, apparently successful as far as Xavier goes. But a google search of the first sentence and quick look at the results shows that, sadly, it isn't a joke. Someone, with an actual human person brain, made that argument.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2018, 06:08:13 AM »
Oh really? So tell us, then, Asteriktos, (1) when did an ape like alleged ancestor of ours first give birth to a human being? Was it allegedly 100 k years ago (some put it 250 to 400 thousand years ago) or closer to 2 million years ago, like evolutionists were claiming some 100 years ago? (2) do you believe in those two individuals scientists call y-chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve? Were these the only two individuals from whom all human beings come, or were there allegedly others? (3) Are you a polygenist? If so, how many apes were there in that alleged monkeyish community that was going to transition into becoming human beings? 10000ish seems to be the common number among evolutionists, though creation scientists have shown it is perfectly possible the human race began from just one pair some 7000 years ago.

Mitochondrial Eve: "According to one review of the data, these recent results would mean that mitochondrial Eve ‘lived about 6500 years ago—a figure clearly incompatible with current [evolutionary] theories on human origins." https://creation.com/a-shrinking-date-for-eve

(4) so finally, if that's your model, some 10000 or so human apes beginning a million or so years ago, be consistent and calculate what population it would lead to in just a few 100 thousand years. Using any reasonable rate at which the population has veen observed to grow, the human population would then have exceeded 10 billion several 100,000 years ago, which never happened. This consideration is more problematic for evolutionists than you want to admit.

Lepanto, don't be so scared of the evolutionists, friend. These evolutionists are just speculating and building a mountain of unexamined assumptions on a pile of sand. It will all come crashing down - just like their lie that the Gospels were written in the 200s A.D. came crashing down, as even most modern liberal scholars admit.

I love science and Christianity has always approved and fostered the natural science, provided only it does not transgress its limits; some of the greatest scientists in history were fervent believers in special creation. God established natural laws only after creation week. Do you really believe, my dear brother in the Lord, Lepanto, an ape gave birth to a baby Eve and another ape happened to give birth to a baby Adam at around the same time?  Gee, that's a cute story; but it's not true and it never happened. Like produces like, species breed within their own kind and it is only offspring of their own kind that they reproduce. Monkeys will never produce men even in 100 trillion years. Or, if you believe in the special creation of Adam and Eve, Doesn't the fact that Adam and Eve were fully formed at their creation give us a clue as to how all creation instantly came into being? They just make naturalistic assumptions and end up with an atheistic "age" for the earth, the sun and the rest of creation. Do you know they once dated a rock known to be less than 20 years old at - wait for it - 2.8 million years old? They used potassium argon dating. Potassium decays to argon with a half life of 1.3 billion years. Very small differences in measurement lead to a meaningless difference of "millions of years" in rocks known to be hardly a few decades old. They typically assume all the argon remaining in the rock formed through decay. For many other reasons, their evolutionary age of millions of years is highly questionable.

A much more solid proof that the earth is less than 100,000 years old comes from the fact that C14 is still found in some of the oldest rocks on earth. This requires no such assumption at all about original quantity; c14 completely decays in 50 to 60 thousand years. The fact that it is still present on these very old rocks, diamonds etc as the St. Kolbe creation centre article documents shows clearly that the earth is not more than that many thousands of years old. A simple way to arrive at an absolute upper limit for the age of the earth without unrelying on unverifiable assumptions about the initial ratio of argon to potassium.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 06:11:02 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2018, 09:41:18 AM »
Xavier, all I did was stating that the quote you provided is obviously utter nonsense.
I did not voice any opinion on evolution or the age of the Earth.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2018, 10:59:49 AM »
But you did not explain why Rev. William's first argument is mistaken; it's very simple, has been pointed out by many creation scientists and can be stated thus (1) if allegedly a population of ape like ancestors gave birth to a human population of around 10,000 some 1 million years ago (as evolutionists claim), then (2) the world's population would have exceeded 10 billion hundreds of thousands of years ago; but (3) such a thing of course never happened, so the assumption in (1) is false. That's the argument; if you disagree, feel free to specifically criticize it.

I will remind you St. Augustine, the Roman Liturgy and practically all of Tradition unanimously see no problem with the special creation of man less than 10, 000 years ago. Pope Pius IX, although not ex cathedra, approved a canon critical of evolution. If some Catholics are wary of wading into the controversy, I understand that, and think that's ok since the Magisterium hasn't yet ruled infallibly. But there are many sound demonstrations that human history is relatively young. There are many Orthodox priests too, e.g. Fr. Seraphim Rose, who have been quite critical of evolution and favoravle to special creation.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2018, 11:33:56 AM »
But you did not explain why Rev. William's first argument is mistaken; it's very simple, has been pointed out by many creation scientists and can be stated thus (1) if allegedly a population of ape like ancestors gave birth to a human population of around 10,000 some 1 million years ago (as evolutionists claim), then (2) the world's population would have exceeded 10 billion hundreds of thousands of years ago; but (3) such a thing of course never happened, so the assumption in (1) is false. That's the argument; if you disagree, feel free to specifically criticize it.

I will remind you St. Augustine, the Roman Liturgy and practically all of Tradition unanimously see no problem with the special creation of man less than 10, 000 years ago. Pope Pius IX, although not ex cathedra, approved a canon critical of evolution. If some Catholics are wary of wading into the controversy, I understand that, and think that's ok since the Magisterium hasn't yet ruled infallibly. But there are many sound demonstrations that human history is relatively young. There are many Orthodox priests too, e.g. Fr. Seraphim Rose, who have been quite critical of evolution and favoravle to special creation.

Rev. Williams first argument is not worth an in-depth refutation.
Really not. Let it suffice to say that any larger catastrophic event, such as a war, epedemic or famine will prove wrong any theory of doubling populations in a given time frame.
Rev. Williams seems to have a certain predilection for powers of two, this is about all the insight one can gain from reading his first argument.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2018, 05:29:35 PM »
Quote
Oh really? So tell us, then, Asteriktos, (1) when did an ape like alleged ancestor of ours first give birth to a human being? Was it allegedly 100 k years ago (some put it 250 to 400 thousand years ago) or closer to 2 million years ago, like evolutionists were claiming some 100 years ago?

Sorites paradox. You're not going to see an immediate transition since all the allele differences between humans and non-human primates likely serve different selected-for environmental functions.

Revisions to the scientific chronology do not magically prove the origins of the Earth were in 4004 BC.

Quote
(2) do you believe in those two individuals scientists call y-chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve? Were these the only two individuals from whom all human beings come, or were there allegedly others?

Except "Adam" could easily have been a descendant of "Eve" (and the evidence as to how far apart they lived in time is inconclusive, running anywhere from a few generations to hundreds of thousands of years). No real compelling reason to conclude that these are the Biblical persons.

Seems to me that both theories have to deal with how the human race didn't kill itself off through a severe genetic bottleneck brought on by inbreeding. At least evolution can conclude that Adam and Eve were polygamists within their separate generations. YEC has to account for, in addition, that 1. There was a time in history in which brother-sister incest was somehow arbitrarily acceptable and 2. There was a second bottleneck to just three pairs of ancestors after the Flood.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:36:00 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2018, 03:12:18 AM »
In the wake of threats to faith like evolutionary naturalism, secular liberalism, widespread agnosticism and outright atheism, most of the old theological disagreements become relatively minor. One can only go into all that if the foundations of the Faith are very firmly held. When the first article of the creed, that God is Creator and Lord of all things, is thrown into question, what becomes of the rest?

You do realize that this exact reasoning can be used for ecumenism, right? Better to ally (merge even?) with Mormons and Muslims against those darn seculars. Pope JP II was just fighting godlessness when he kissed that Quran!

Do you think it is a coincidence that Communism and its "scientific atheism" lie arose to prominence so shortly after Darwinism? Marx himself once wrote a treatise "On the love of Christ" in his youth. He wrote things like "Our heart, our reason, history itself, and the word of Christ, all call to us loudly and decisively that a union with Him is an absolute necessity". Like countless others since then, he lost his faith after reading progressive liberal disenligtened ideas. He became enchanted with Darwin and fawned over his works. Without Darwinism, so many of these false ideas would have been defeated earlier. his is a theory designed to lead to a naturalistic, godless worldview.

The idea that monkeys fathered man will lead to unbelief.

It could lead to unbelief, sure. But so could turning away from the clear Scriptural tenets of Geocentrism and literal storehouses of snow (Job 38:22) over "modern godless meterology."

I made a cool thread for cool people about this very topic, because I thought it was important.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline HardHead

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2018, 08:32:20 AM »
You may consider this in the discussion regarding age, and the half-life of isotopes that are not carbon. This is an excerpt, with the full article in the link ...

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/dinosaur-bone-age1.htm

The most widely known form of radiometric dating is carbon-14 dating. This is what archaeologists use to determine the age of human-made artifacts. But carbon-14 dating won't work on dinosaur bones. The half-life of carbon-14 is only 5,730 years, so carbon-14 dating is only effective on samples that are less than 50,000 years old. Dinosaur bones, on the other hand, are millions of years old -- some fossils are billions of years old. To determine the ages of these specimens, scientists need an isotope with a very long half-life. Some of the isotopes used for this purpose are uranium-238, uranium-235 and potassium-40, each of which has a half-life of more than a million years.

Unfortunately, these elements don't exist in dinosaur fossils themselves. Each of them typically exists in igneous rock, or rock made from cooled magma. Fossils, however, form in sedimentary rock -- sediment quickly covers a dinosaur's body, and the sediment and the bones gradually turn into rock. But this sediment doesn't typically include the necessary isotopes in measurable amounts. Fossils can't form in the igneous rock that usually does contain the isotopes. The extreme temperatures of the magma would just destroy the bones.

So to determine the age of sedimentary rock layers, researchers first have to find neighboring layers of Earth that include igneous rock, such as volcanic ash. These layers are like bookends -- they give a beginning and an end to the period of time when the sedimentary rock formed. By using radiometric dating to determine the age of igneous brackets, researchers can accurately determine the age of the sedimentary layers between them.

Using the basic ideas of bracketing and radiometric dating, researchers have determined the age of rock layers all over the world. This information has also helped determine the age of the Earth itself. While the oldest known rocks on Earth are about 3.5 billion years old, researchers have found zircon crystals that are 4.3 billion years old [source: USGS]. Based on the analysis of these samples, scientists estimate that the Earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old. In addition, the oldest known moon rocks are 4.5 billion years old. Since the moon and the Earth probably formed at the same time, this supports the current idea of the Earth's age.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 08:40:58 AM by HardHead »

Offline HardHead

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2018, 09:11:12 AM »
You may also consider this in the discussion on age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-238
Around 99.284% of natural uranium's mass is uranium-238, which has a half-life of 1.41×10^17
seconds (4.468×10^9 years, or 4.468 billion years).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-235
Uranium-235 has a half-life of 703.8 million years. It was discovered in 1935 by Arthur Jeffrey Dempster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-40
Potassium-40 (40K) is a radioactive isotope of potassium which has a very long half-life of 1.251×10^9 years. It makes up 0.012% (120 ppm) of the total amount of potassium found in nature.


You may consider this in the discussion regarding age, and the half-life of isotopes that are not carbon. This is an excerpt, with the full article in the link ...

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/dinosaur-bone-age1.htm

Using the basic ideas of bracketing and radiometric dating, researchers have determined the age of rock layers all over the world. This information has also helped determine the age of the Earth itself. While the oldest known rocks on Earth are about 3.5 billion years old, researchers have found zircon crystals that are 4.3 billion years old [source: USGS]. Based on the analysis of these samples, scientists estimate that the Earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old. In addition, the oldest known moon rocks are 4.5 billion years old. Since the moon and the Earth probably formed at the same time, this supports the current idea of the Earth's age.


Offline Xavier

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2018, 12:20:25 PM »
Volnutt, I will post a topic on evolution's hypothesis of 10,000 human beings coming from monkeyish ancestors millions or 100s of thousands of years ago being mathematically absurd in that subforum.

Hardhead, c14 still being present in some of the oldest rocks on earth proves they cannot be more than 50 to 60 thousand years old, because c14 completely decays by then. This was documented earlier, and I'll give the link again if you want. This argument is absolutely solid and doesn't require any assumptions about the original quantity of c14.

In Potassium Argon and Uranium Lead dating, Hardhead, they not only make all sorts of unverifiable assumptions about the original quantity of the mother isotope (potassium and uranium respectively, they typically assume no Argon and lead were present originally), but even the very idea of using elements with billion year half lifes is circular and begs the question. Some evolutionary sites will put out disclaimers that these elements cannot be used to date rocks less than 100,000 years old; and that's correct. But since we hold all rocks are such, you can't falsify that model by this method. But elements with 5730 year half lifes like c14 do falsify long ages simply by still being present, because they cannot survive millions of years.

To give an example, if they find, say, the ratio of Potassium to Argon is roughly 50:50, they conclude 1.25 billion years has passed. Rocks known to be less than 20 years old were "dated" to 2.8 million years by this method. It should be clear elements with very large half lifes are not appropriate.

From an evolutionary site:"As the simulation of the processing of potassium-argon samples showed, the standard deviations for K-Ar dates are so large that resolution higher than about a million years is almost impossible to achieve. By comparison, radiocarbon dates seem almost as precise as a cesium clock! Potassium-argon dating is accurate from 4.3 billion years (the [evolutionary -X] age of the Earth) to about 100,000 years before the present."http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/stsmith/classes/anth3/courseware/Chronology/09_Potassium_Argon_Dating.html
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2018, 12:40:14 PM »
Now, you should reply right here to Lepanto on the errant assumptions in the argument.

And I'd also like you to reply to my point regarding Geocentrism.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.