Author Topic: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.  (Read 4365 times)

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Offline Xavier

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Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« on: January 26, 2018, 12:42:47 PM »
Does Orthodoxy have a dogmatic position (as derived, say, from the divine Liturgy) on creation vis-a-vis evolutionism? Orthodox Wiki https://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era suggests the traditional view in the Byzantine Church, just like in the Latin Church, is that the earth is young; so God supernaturally produced wondrous effects during creation week, while governing creation by natural laws only after that; so that uniformitarian and other assumptjons are wrong. Posters here have any views for or against the controversy? Should a re-united Church declare it dogmatically to close the way to error, or leave both opinions as legitimate theologoumenon? The traditional Christmas Liturgy (changed in the new one) in the Latin rite is below. The traditional date of creation in the Roman Church is March 25th, 5200 B.C, the day when Christ was also conceived.

"In the year 5199th from the creation of the world, when in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, in the year 2959th from the flood, in the year 2015th from the birth of Abraham, in the year 1510th from the going forth of the people of Israel out of Egypt under Moses, in the year 1032th from the anointing of David as King, in the 65th week according to the prophecy of Daniel, in the 194th Olympiad, in the 752nd from the foundation of the city of Rome, in the 42nd year of the reign of the Emperor Octavian Augustus, in the 6th age of the world, while the whole earth was at peace, Jesus Christ, Himself Eternal God and Son of the Eternal Father, being pleased to hallow the world by His most gracious coming, having been conceived of the Holy Ghost, and when nine months were passed after His conception, [all kneel down] was born of the Virgin Mary at Bethlehem of Juda made Man, Our Lord Jesus Christ was born according to the flesh."
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 01:38:20 PM »
I was just reading about this topic last night in Orthodox Christianity, Volume II: Doctrine and Teaching of the Orthodox Church by Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev). With regard to evolution, he asserts it is incompatible with Orthodoxy to believe the evolution of man from another species.

As for the age of the earth, without going into a long explanation of the issue, he seems to say that the idea of an "old earth" is not incompatible with Orthodoxy due to the different ways in which the creation account's time frame can be interpreted (and was interpreted by the Fathers). He does seem to say that it is well-founded that humanity is no more than 7,500 years old.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 04:59:17 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 05:43:29 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

blank, never mind.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 05:46:29 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 05:48:19 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

I would disagree with great rigor in saying Pope Francis's real interests are saving souls, when he constantly attacks people who like Traditional Liturgy and people who want to adhere to the Roman Catholic Church's own moral theology, while also appointing people who are much more venomous in their language in some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth.

Do you think it brings people to Christ when he gives awards to people who dedicate their career to promoting abortion as a fundamental human right?

He is more interested in trying to accommodate his church to the current day and age in terms of moral theology rather than trying to bring people to Christ, who may I remind you told you to reject the world's lifestyle.

Also, according to Orthodoxy, Rome has held heresy from 1054.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 05:52:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"I arise today
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Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation."
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 06:17:49 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

I would disagree with great rigor in saying Pope Francis's real interests are saving souls, when he constantly attacks people who like Traditional Liturgy

Wasn't he the first bishop to implement the EF after Benedict XVI allowed it?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:18:01 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 06:45:34 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

The Catholic Church allows theistic evolution as a theological opinion but it officially doesn’t hold to any opinion on evolution.

With regards to Pope Francis, he is far from interested in saving souls but more interested in his own popularity. He decries any attempts at spreading the faith as proselytism and forbidden, he tells people that committing the mortal sin of adultery that they can revive Holy Communion which would be the sin of sacrilege, he awards pro-abortion women who raised millions of dollars to fund abortion  with an award specifically given to people who do work for the church, he promotes the worst of the worst of the clergy who are pro-homosexual and have bad history with paedophilia, he disbanded the pontifical academy for life’s staff and filled up it with liberal and  pro-abortion people, he completely despises traditionalism and lastly he just allowed the communist excommunicated bishops of the state church to usurp the sees of the legitimate underground Chinese bishops.

Pray for the pope.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:46:35 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 07:11:02 PM »
Gotta say, not where I expected this thread to go. Guess I shouldn't have been surprised, though...
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2018, 07:19:22 PM »
What if the first day was like 3 billion years?  8)
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2018, 08:35:51 PM »
Well from one of the greatest catholic mystics :

“I saw these false computations of the pagan priests at the same time that I beheld Jesus teaching on the Sabbath at Aruma. Jesus, speaking before the Phar­isees of the Call of Abraham and his sojourn in Egypt, exposed the errors of the Egyptian calendar. He told them that the world had now existed 4028 years. When I heard Jesus say this, He was Himself thirty-one years old.
- Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 08:36:23 PM by Wandile »
I do not post here anymore until the end of the year. God bless.

During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2018, 08:48:02 PM »
Well from one of the greatest catholic mystics :

“I saw these false computations of the pagan priests at the same time that I beheld Jesus teaching on the Sabbath at Aruma. Jesus, speaking before the Phar­isees of the Call of Abraham and his sojourn in Egypt, exposed the errors of the Egyptian calendar. He told them that the world had now existed 4028 years. When I heard Jesus say this, He was Himself thirty-one years old.
- Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich

Assuming she actually said that. Got a source for it other than Brentano?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2018, 08:52:02 PM »
Gotta say, not where I expected this thread to go. Guess I shouldn't have been surprised, though...

Sorry about that. It was a troll thread so I did a bit of a troll answer. Unless the OP, who seems to have no trouble doing research, really did think that their church considers evolution a heresy, in which case they have a much larger issue than trolling, and I'd feel bad for picking on them.

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 09:10:31 PM »
Gotta say, not where I expected this thread to go. Guess I shouldn't have been surprised, though...

Sorry about that. It was a troll thread so I did a bit of a troll answer. Unless the OP, who seems to have no trouble doing research, really did think that their church considers evolution a heresy, in which case they have a much larger issue than trolling, and I'd feel bad for picking on them.

No, I didn't mean you :)


I just found it funny that it turned into Pope Francis bashing after just five or so posts.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Xavier

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2018, 02:44:25 AM »
Thanks, ErmyCath. So Eastern Tradition is mostly in line with Western Tradition, then.

1. Asteriktos, "Evolutionism" is not just natural selection, which is true; no one denies natural selection. What we deny is apes to men evolution and especially particles to people evolution. Nor has the Catholic Church taken a position on these latter two other than to reject polygenism; and state that all must hold the human soul was created directly and immediately by God, as even theistic evolutionists do. Evolution is true only in the narrowest sense, not in all its more extravagant and practically atheistic and materialistic claims. If you believe in p2p evolution and want to defend it, have a go at these, especially 1,2,7,8,9 and 10. http://creation.mobi/15-questions-for-evolutionists the origin of life, the existence of information in the DNA code are all clear evidence of creation and design; the alleged evolution of multicellular organisms from unicellular ones and of sexual reproduction from asexually reproducing ancestors would never take place; millions of expected transitionary fossils are still missing today; and if protozoa-to-people kind of evolution took place at the same time, why did "living fossils" (fossils of the same kind of organisms as exist today) remain unchanged over timescales of millions of years?

See: "We found fossilized examples from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today including: arthropods (insects, crustaceans etc.), shellfish, echinoderms (starfish, crinoids, brittle stars, etc.), corals, sponges, and segmented worms (earthworms, marine worms)" http://creation.com/werner

2. Evolutionism is the atheistic philosophy masquerading as science that invents terms like "chemical evolution" to describe abiogenesis; and equivocates everything from natural selection to alleged common descent of all life forms from a single-celled ancestor under the catch-all phrase "evolution". And that is heresy. As if natural selection itself proved universal common descent.

As for evolutionary timescales, among other things, no carbon, collagen, protein, dna or haemoglobin should be found in fossils that are truly 100 million or so years old. Carbon for example has a half life of about 5730 years. There are more than 150 half lifes in just a million years. 2^10 is around 10^3, so 2^150 is around 10^45. That means even if there were billions of tons present initially, practically none would remain today if this timescsale is true. How is it carbon, collagen and protein are still found in fossils alleged to be 100s of millions of years old? When the news was discovered, they denied it at first. Because it just didn't fit. http://www.icr.org/article/carbon-14-found-dinosaur-fossils/
http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html

"The theoretical limit for C-14 dating is 100,000 years using AMS, but for practical purposes it is 45,000 to 55,000 years.  The half-life of C-14 is 5730 years.  If dinosaur bones are 65 million years old, there should not be one atom of C-14 left in them."
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2018, 03:41:53 AM »
Quote
The Catholic Church allows theistic evolution as a theological opinion but it officially doesn’t hold to any opinion on evolution.
This is heresy and outright denial of the gospel, if evolution is true then we are all delusional lunatics to be pitied (spoiler it isn't).

even keeping the door open to "opinions" shows a lack of faith and not knowing what you believe in, and if you don't know what to believe in, how do you plan to enter heaven ?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:42:13 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2018, 05:49:01 AM »
Quote
The Catholic Church allows theistic evolution as a theological opinion but it officially doesn’t hold to any opinion on evolution.
This is heresy and outright denial of the gospel, if evolution is true then we are all delusional lunatics to be pitied (spoiler it isn't).

even keeping the door open to "opinions" shows a lack of faith and not knowing what you believe in, and if you don't know what to believe in, how do you plan to enter heaven ?

The church is not a scientific institution but a theological and moral one. That is why she does not pronounce on the theory other than to say there must have been an Adam and an Eve. That the earth was created by God and man fell. The Church traditionally holds to six days for creation but does not dogmatically define that six days means six literal days.

FYI I actually don’t believe in evolution. Its nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:50:18 AM by Wandile »
I do not post here anymore until the end of the year. God bless.

During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 05:52:03 AM »
Well from one of the greatest catholic mystics :

“I saw these false computations of the pagan priests at the same time that I beheld Jesus teaching on the Sabbath at Aruma. Jesus, speaking before the Phar­isees of the Call of Abraham and his sojourn in Egypt, exposed the errors of the Egyptian calendar. He told them that the world had now existed 4028 years. When I heard Jesus say this, He was Himself thirty-one years old.
- Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich

Assuming she actually said that. Got a source for it other than Brentano?

Are there any others ? Brentano is the source and most of what’s in there is true. Either way I seem to trust what’s recorded there as much of her prophecies have come true already.
I do not post here anymore until the end of the year. God bless.

During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 09:06:04 AM »
Quote
The Catholic Church allows theistic evolution as a theological opinion but it officially doesn’t hold to any opinion on evolution.
This is heresy and outright denial of the gospel, if evolution is true then we are all delusional lunatics to be pitied (spoiler it isn't).

even keeping the door open to "opinions" shows a lack of faith and not knowing what you believe in, and if you don't know what to believe in, how do you plan to enter heaven ?

The church is not a scientific institution but a theological and moral one. That is why she does not pronounce on the theory other than to say there must have been an Adam and an Eve. That the earth was created by God and man fell. The Church traditionally holds to six days for creation but does not dogmatically define that six days means six literal days.
Evolution is a soul destroying heresy on the level of arianism, mohamedism and such, i have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness. And others so called christians who accept this theory also gladly accept ecumenism. I am personally and geniunely convinced that persons who are accepting of this theory will be the same people who will accept the antichrist, if they did not crucify their intellect now, how will they do so when the king of deceivers present himself as the greatest humanitarian and offers them reverence to the ancient traditions & paradise on earth ?
Quote
FYI I actually don’t believe in evolution. Its nonsense.
Yet you do not see the consequences of not denying this pernicious heresy ?

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 12:38:52 PM »
Has anyone informed the Vatican that they hold to a heresy when they support "evolutionism"? I can't speak for Pope Francis, who seems more interested in helping the poor and saving souls, but I'm sure at least some of ideology-wonks there would like to know...

I would disagree with great rigor in saying Pope Francis's real interests are saving souls, when he constantly attacks people who like Traditional Liturgy

Wasn't he the first bishop to implement the EF after Benedict XVI allowed it?

I'm not sure, but Pope Francis has several times off the record referred to the Traditionalist movement as a "Pelagian current", calling people who want the EF "Pelagians," and announced that with Magisterial authority, Vatican II's liturgical reforms are irreformable (which is a statement of crap from a Catholic perspective, because the idea that liturgy is merely disciplinary is what justified Vatican II's changes).
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Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation."
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May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 01:24:27 PM »
Quote
The Catholic Church allows theistic evolution as a theological opinion but it officially doesn’t hold to any opinion on evolution.
This is heresy and outright denial of the gospel, if evolution is true then we are all delusional lunatics to be pitied (spoiler it isn't).

even keeping the door open to "opinions" shows a lack of faith and not knowing what you believe in, and if you don't know what to believe in, how do you plan to enter heaven ?

The church is not a scientific institution but a theological and moral one. That is why she does not pronounce on the theory other than to say there must have been an Adam and an Eve. That the earth was created by God and man fell. The Church traditionally holds to six days for creation but does not dogmatically define that six days means six literal days.
Evolution is a soul destroying heresy on the level of arianism, mohamedism and such, i have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness. And others so called christians who accept this theory also gladly accept ecumenism. I am personally and geniunely convinced that persons who are accepting of this theory will be the same people who will accept the antichrist, if they did not crucify their intellect now, how will they do so when the king of deceivers present himself as the greatest humanitarian and offers them reverence to the ancient traditions & paradise on earth ?
It took 3 centuries to define the trinity as a dogma, 4 centuries to define the hypostatic union, 6 centuries to define on the side of iconography and over 1000 years to defining the real presence in the Eucharist. Was the church being sloppy then?

Evolution is bad science but science nonetheless not theology. Now the most are assumed to believe in a 6 day creation with the 7th day for rest but for those who don’t, as long as their view still holds true to the biblical narrative then the Church seems to be okay with it.

FYI your church as not defined on this matter either .


Quote
Quote
FYI I actually don’t believe in evolution. Its nonsense.
Yet you do not see the consequences of not denying this pernicious heresy ?

I do but I also understand why no apostolic Christian Church has pronounced on the matter. It’s an issue of science. Eventually they will.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 01:26:07 PM by Wandile »
I do not post here anymore until the end of the year. God bless.

During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2018, 02:41:21 PM »
By the way, you know the liturgical gloves are on when you see Xavier change his profile picture to Fatima.

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Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2018, 02:42:31 PM »
Quote from: Vanhyo
Evolution is a soul destroying heresy on the level of arianism, mohamedism and such, i have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness. And others so called christians who accept this theory also gladly accept ecumenism. I am personally and geniunely convinced that persons who are accepting of this theory will be the same people who will accept the antichrist, if they did not crucify their intellect now, how will they do so when the king of deceivers present himself as the greatest humanitarian and offers them reverence to the ancient traditions & paradise on earth ?

The universe is much, much older than 10,000 years, and evolution is real. It is what it is.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 02:43:46 PM by Arzelle »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2018, 03:13:12 PM »
By the way, you know the liturgical gloves are on when you see Xavier change his profile picture to Fatima.

On or off?
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2018, 03:23:27 PM »
Thanks, ErmyCath. So Eastern Tradition is mostly in line with Western Tradition, then.

1. Asteriktos, "Evolutionism" is not just natural selection, which is true; no one denies natural selection. What we deny is apes to men evolution and especially particles to people evolution. Nor has the Catholic Church taken a position on these latter two other than to reject polygenism; and state that all must hold the human soul was created directly and immediately by God, as even theistic evolutionists do. Evolution is true only in the narrowest sense, not in all its more extravagant and practically atheistic and materialistic claims. If you believe in p2p evolution and want to defend it, have a go at these, especially 1,2,7,8,9 and 10. http://creation.mobi/15-questions-for-evolutionists the origin of life, the existence of information in the DNA code are all clear evidence of creation and design; the alleged evolution of multicellular organisms from unicellular ones and of sexual reproduction from asexually reproducing ancestors would never take place; millions of expected transitionary fossils are still missing today; and if protozoa-to-people kind of evolution took place at the same time, why did "living fossils" (fossils of the same kind of organisms as exist today) remain unchanged over timescales of millions of years?

See: "We found fossilized examples from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today including: arthropods (insects, crustaceans etc.), shellfish, echinoderms (starfish, crinoids, brittle stars, etc.), corals, sponges, and segmented worms (earthworms, marine worms)" http://creation.com/werner

2. Evolutionism is the atheistic philosophy masquerading as science that invents terms like "chemical evolution" to describe abiogenesis; and equivocates everything from natural selection to alleged common descent of all life forms from a single-celled ancestor under the catch-all phrase "evolution". And that is heresy. As if natural selection itself proved universal common descent.

As for evolutionary timescales, among other things, no carbon, collagen, protein, dna or haemoglobin should be found in fossils that are truly 100 million or so years old. Carbon for example has a half life of about 5730 years. There are more than 150 half lifes in just a million years. 2^10 is around 10^3, so 2^150 is around 10^45. That means even if there were billions of tons present initially, practically none would remain today if this timescsale is true. How is it carbon, collagen and protein are still found in fossils alleged to be 100s of millions of years old? When the news was discovered, they denied it at first. Because it just didn't fit. http://www.icr.org/article/carbon-14-found-dinosaur-fossils/
http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html

"The theoretical limit for C-14 dating is 100,000 years using AMS, but for practical purposes it is 45,000 to 55,000 years.  The half-life of C-14 is 5730 years.  If dinosaur bones are 65 million years old, there should not be one atom of C-14 left in them."

Funny that all your creationist stuff is from low church Protestant websites.

But really, I've never seen what the theoretical problem is. What's the real difference between "particles to people" and "dust to people" (Genesis 2:7)? As long as God's hand is guiding the process, isn't it the same result in the end? Yes, it means Eve was probably never originally a rib, but how many Church Fathers actually took that one literally in the first place? Is it because it means you can't just mechanistically add genealogies together and come out with some neat figure for the age of the Earth?

Similarly, I don't see what the problem is for a view that man evolved from ape, as long as at some point the first human received a soul from God. Isn't that the most important difference between us and the animals?
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2018, 03:27:46 PM »
Quote from: Vanhyo
Evolution is a soul destroying heresy on the level of arianism, mohamedism and such, i have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness. And others so called christians who accept this theory also gladly accept ecumenism. I am personally and geniunely convinced that persons who are accepting of this theory will be the same people who will accept the antichrist, if they did not crucify their intellect now, how will they do so when the king of deceivers present himself as the greatest humanitarian and offers them reverence to the ancient traditions & paradise on earth ?

The universe is much, much older than 10,000 years, and evolution is real. It is what it is.
You are assuming naturalism, for example the light needs to travel millions of years, babies need time to grow up and become man, rivers need time to reach their destination and so on.

This is not how it was in the beginning, in the beginning everything was created complete and mature at the same time. God did not create little babies but fully grown man, when God created the stars, there was no need for the light to travel millions of years but it made contact instantly, the rivers were also complete as they were created, all of creation was new in its origin but "old" mature and complete as creation.

So science can't really help you here because it assumes naturalism. Also the data is interpreted by the personal bias of the atheist.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:32:01 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2018, 03:35:41 PM »
As long as God's hand is guiding the process, isn't it the same result in the end? Yes, it means Eve was probably never originally a rib, but how many Church Fathers actually took that one literally in the first place? Is it because it means you can't just mechanistically add genealogies together and come out with some neat figure for the age of the Earth?

The god of theistic evolution is not the God of Christianity. Survival of the fittest is doctrine of devils.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:36:12 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 03:36:57 PM »
As long as God's hand is guiding the process, isn't it the same result in the end? Yes, it means Eve was probably never originally a rib, but how many Church Fathers actually took that one literally in the first place? Is it because it means you can't just mechanistically add genealogies together and come out with some neat figure for the age of the Earth?

The god of theistic evolution is not the God of Christianity. Survival of the fittest is doctrine of devils.

What do you think survival of the fittest actually means?
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 03:38:38 PM »
What do you think survival of the fittest actually means?
the egotism of the devil ?

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2018, 03:42:40 PM »
Quote from: Vanhyo
Evolution is a soul destroying heresy on the level of arianism, mohamedism and such, i have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness. And others so called christians who accept this theory also gladly accept ecumenism. I am personally and geniunely convinced that persons who are accepting of this theory will be the same people who will accept the antichrist, if they did not crucify their intellect now, how will they do so when the king of deceivers present himself as the greatest humanitarian and offers them reverence to the ancient traditions & paradise on earth ?

The universe is much, much older than 10,000 years, and evolution is real. It is what it is.
You are assuming naturalism, for example the light needs to travel millions of years, babies need time to grow up and become man, rivers need time to reach their destination and so on.

This is not how it was in the beginning, in the beginning everything was created complete and mature at the same time. God did not create little babies but fully grown man, when God created the stars, there was no need for the light to travel millions of years but it made contact instantly, the rivers were also complete as they were created, all of creation was new in its origin but "old" mature and complete as creation.

So science can't really help you here because it assumes naturalism. Also the data is interpreted by the personal bias of the atheist.

Then why should we even believe that the earth is 6000 years old? Why not say it was created last Thursday and we have fake memories in order to make us "mature?" Where has God ever operated like that? It sounds like deception.

Further, why not be a geocentrist? Astronomy is just the product of "atheist" bias, after all.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2018, 03:43:10 PM »
What do you think survival of the fittest actually means?
the egotism of the devil ?

Hardy har har. No, what do you think it entails?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2018, 03:45:59 PM »
What do you think survival of the fittest actually means?
the egotism of the devil ?

Hardy har har. No, what do you think it entails?
Devil worship, bowing down before him in return for earthly gain. Merging your will and energy with his will and energy.

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2018, 03:47:01 PM »
Hilarious.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 03:54:33 PM »
What do you think survival of the fittest actually means?
the egotism of the devil ?

Hardy har har. No, what do you think it entails?
Devil worship, bowing down before him in return for earthly gain. Merging your will and energy with his will and energy.

Fine, you want me to do your homework for you?

How is a cat eating a mouse an example of human egotism or devil worship? The cat was faster, the mouse didn't get away. That mouse doesn't get to pass more alleles on to the next generation, while the cat lives for another chance to. Survival of the fittest, that's all it means.

It in no way necessarily entails applying any kind of "social Darwinist" logic to any sphere of human activity. You might as well say that believing in erosion entails social Darwinism, too.

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Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2018, 03:57:24 PM »
By the way, you know the liturgical gloves are on when you see Xavier change his profile picture to Fatima.

On or off?

On.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2018, 04:00:13 PM »
By the way, you know the liturgical gloves are on when you see Xavier change his profile picture to Fatima.

On or off?

On.

But I thought that the phrase was, "The gloves are coming off."
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2018, 04:02:26 PM »
Quote
How is a cat eating a mouse an example of human egotism or devil worship? The cat was faster, the mouse didn't get away. That mouse doesn't get to pass more alleles on to the next generation, while the cat lives for another chance to. Survival of the fittest, that's all it means.
Not only that, you may notice sometimes cats are taking pleasure in abusing their victims.

After the fall of man, this fall was also transmuted on all of creation, ever since then the devil and his angels gained a mandate for a time, to influence man and through man a right to influence creation till the day of judgement.

If you take the principles of this fallen world for something normal or as inspiration, you will be unable to see the kingdom of heaven.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 04:03:20 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2018, 04:10:48 PM »
Cats worship the devil.

I can't believe I learned how to read.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2018, 04:22:37 PM »
Cats worship the devil.

I can't believe I learned how to read.
Animals simply act upon instincts, wherever these instincts come from.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 04:23:12 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2018, 04:27:53 PM »
Yep, you're a scientist.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2018, 04:36:43 PM »
Quote
How is a cat eating a mouse an example of human egotism or devil worship? The cat was faster, the mouse didn't get away. That mouse doesn't get to pass more alleles on to the next generation, while the cat lives for another chance to. Survival of the fittest, that's all it means.
Not only that, you may notice sometimes cats are taking pleasure in abusing their victims.

After the fall of man, this fall was also transmuted on all of creation, ever since then the devil and his angels gained a mandate for a time, to influence man and through man a right to influence creation till the day of judgement.

If you take the principles of this fallen world for something normal or as inspiration, you will be unable to see the kingdom of heaven.

First of all, I doubt that there's some quasi-legal "mandate" involved, that sounds like Word-Faith. But either way, the physical world we see could not exist if there were no entropy, which is the ultimate cause of that kind of instinctual behavior. Even baking bread involves entropy, even breathing involves it. So your "already mature" universe would definitely involve it the instant God finished creating.

And don't forget that God is sovereign. Satan would have no power if it had not been given to him.

We don't know what the world would look like without sin, but it's naive to assume that it would be just like this one only with no meat eating.
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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2018, 04:48:24 PM »
Quote from: Vanhyo
Not only that, you may notice sometimes cats are taking pleasure in abusing their victims.


So do abusive people.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2018, 05:15:11 PM »
 :P
Cats worship the devil.
Mine doesn't.

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2018, 05:35:34 PM »
As far as I know, Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't bother much with such debates, they're not hooked to this type of shenanigans that some Western Christians are into.

The theory of Evolution by natural selection is a scientific fact and if you think by calling it "heresy" you're somehow winning people, you're not. Haven't you learned anything from the recent trends? That when people see a conflict between their faith and the theory of Evolution, they tend to side with the latter because of the overwhelming evidence? If you think by making the theory of Evolution an enemy you're going to win the war, you're not, you're going to lose it just like you lost before, and all that because of your own rigid interpretation of the Scriptures. And I don't mean to be hostile, but my reaction is this way because that what I used to believe, I used to reject the theory of Evolution and believed it to be a "heresy", the first two chapters of Genesis became more important to me than the entire four Gospels. People like this that give Christianity a bad name when it comes to science, and somehow act surprised when the youth leave the church because of what they perceive conflict caused I believe by such reactionary interpretations.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:40:25 PM by Ray1 »

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2018, 05:38:58 PM »
Gotta say, not where I expected this thread to go. Guess I shouldn't have been surprised, though...

I have mixed feelings about Pope Francis myself, but nowadays it seems almost any subject that includes Roman Catholics tend to go that road one way or another  ::)

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Re: Orthodox views on creation/the heresy of evolutionism.
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2018, 06:00:59 PM »
I have personally seen genuine people who seeked the truth but refused to reject this theory send into the abyss of madness.
Lol
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.