Author Topic: Future of the Western Rite?  (Read 3481 times)

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Offline Mercurius1

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Future of the Western Rite?
« on: January 23, 2018, 01:26:51 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 02:13:06 PM »
I think it will likely remain a niche market, short of some large conversion of a group such as the Anglican Catholic Church. Unless the target group demand it themselves, it doesn't seem like it is viewed or taken seriously as a means of evangelization. It seems to me that the Philippines and Guatemala would have been excellent places to use it but the Orthodox missions in those places are all Byzantine. Whether the converts would have preferred it one way or the other I don't know.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 02:29:25 PM »
It could be a evangelization tool 60 years ago, today most western christians (catholics too) are used to some sort of low church liturgy. The main importance of the WR in my view is more relative to historical preservation and heritage.

Offline Saxon

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 09:52:25 AM »
Niche, but I believe that will vary among jurisdictions. Within ROCOR, the aim seems to be a reluctant accommodation of the WR as a transitional stage to the Byzantine Rite. Most clergy I have spoken to hope those parishes will embrace Byzantine liturgy once the congregation has become sufficiently comfortable with Orthodox practices. Antiochian and other jurisdictions seem to be a little more accommodating, perhaps as they lack the monolithic Russian cultural domination present in ROCOR. That is fine with me, as I much prefer this ROCOR's traditional approach, but it has been problematic for some other converts that I have encountered.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 11:17:51 AM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 12:27:53 PM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.

If Rome with all its Anglican liturgical concessions wasn't able to woo the TAC, I don't feel like the current leadership in Antioch (or especially ROCOR) will be able to win hearts and minds, either.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 12:44:44 PM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.

I agree with you.
Orthodoxy can't be only Byzantine rite. It can't be also only Eastern rites (Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian etc). Orthodox Church is the True Church, it's Catholic Church. So there is a place for every traditional rite.
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Offline Prufrock

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 03:13:45 PM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.

Whether or not Western Rite Orthodoxy ever becomes more than a niche movement, its existence at least serves to challenge the idea that true Orthodoxy is necessarily Byzantine. If that's all it does, then it still has grear value.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 03:55:23 PM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.

Whether or not Western Rite Orthodoxy ever becomes more than a niche movement, its existence at least serves to challenge the idea that true Orthodoxy is necessarily Byzantine. If that's all it does, then it still has grear value.

WRO nor any other form of Orthodoxy doesn't need to challenge or proof anything. If it leads just a single soul to holiness it is worth the effort.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 03:56:10 PM by Alpo »
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 04:53:12 PM »
Even if it keeps niche, I hope it keeps existant. We had sizeable modern missions in Assyrian and Pre-Nikonian rites, I'm sure the latter still exists and I think so does the former, but they have decreased a lot over the years.

I think it will likely remain a niche market, short of some large conversion of a group such as the Anglican Catholic Church. Unless the target group demand it themselves, it doesn't seem like it is viewed or taken seriously as a means of evangelization. It seems to me that the Philippines and Guatemala would have been excellent places to use it but the Orthodox missions in those places are all Byzantine. Whether the converts would have preferred it one way or the other I don't know.
I think it was strongly used in Mexico, not?
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 05:36:20 PM »
I think it was strongly used in Mexico, not?

I'm not aware of any cases of that. I'd be happy to be wrong.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 06:19:04 AM »
Quote
Even if it keeps niche, I hope it keeps existant. We had sizeable modern missions in Assyrian and Pre-Nikonian rites, I'm sure the latter still exists and I think so does the former, but they have decreased a lot over the years.

There are still assyrian orthodox in Georgia, they are like less than 5 k people, and are relatively well known in Russia, Georgia and other countries with significant orthodox population (and netodoxy afaik) due to Archimandrite Seraphim Bit Kharibi, the assyrian-georgian priest and his choir that performs sacred chants in aramaic.

There are some videos of him celebrating divine liturgy, looks like St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, but in aramaic, I don't know if they use some form of the assyrian rite.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:22:13 AM by juliogb »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 01:08:05 AM »
I'm aware of these ethnical Assyrians, their music is amazing, but I'm almost sure they use the Byzantine rite. I was talking about an old Russian mission in Iraq that even had expats make at least one parish in the US.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2018, 06:34:43 AM »
In a hypothetical scenario of WR liturgies becoming widespread, could that lead to conflicts with roman catholicism in countries with significant catholic population? Maybe accusations of sheepstealing or something like that.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2018, 10:42:30 AM »
In a hypothetical scenario of WR liturgies becoming widespread, could that lead to conflicts with roman catholicism in countries with significant catholic population? Maybe accusations of sheepstealing or something like that.

As much as the Byzantine Catholics do the same.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 11:26:56 AM »
In a hypothetical scenario of WR liturgies becoming widespread, could that lead to conflicts with roman catholicism in countries with significant catholic population? Maybe accusations of sheepstealing or something like that.

As much as the Byzantine Catholics do the same.

I wouldn't say that's exactly the same case; Western Rite parishes become Orthodox by their own choice; not by political decision or enforced conversion made by politicians and/or bishop(s) as it happenes for Byzantine Catholics in most situations.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2018, 05:55:32 PM »
In a hypothetical scenario of WR liturgies becoming widespread, could that lead to conflicts with roman catholicism in countries with significant catholic population? Maybe accusations of sheepstealing or something like that.

As much as the Byzantine Catholics do the same.

I wouldn't say that's exactly the same case; Western Rite parishes become Orthodox by their own choice; not by political decision or enforced conversion made by politicians and/or bishop(s) as it happenes for Byzantine Catholics in most situations.

My argument was that the Roman Catholic Church allows you to use Byzantine liturgical tradition while remaining Catholic - going even farther than that, allowing you to venerate Orthodox Saints and believe in Palamite theology - and uses it as a constant selling point for conversion - and it would be rather hypocritical to suddenly say "How dare you use a version of our Mass which we don't use anymore unless you are part of a society which is in communion with us!"

I can tell you first hand that this does happen - I attended a Catholic event that I was invited to, and told the guy that I'm enquiring into Orthodoxy, with the immediate response being "Why not just become Byzantine Catholic? You can be in communion with Peter while being Byzantine!"
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:02:20 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 07:03:13 AM »
Quote
My argument was that the Roman Catholic Church allows you to use Byzantine liturgical tradition while remaining Catholic - going even farther than that, allowing you to venerate Orthodox Saints and believe in Palamite theology - and uses it as a constant selling point for conversion - and it would be rather hypocritical to suddenly say "How dare you use a version of our Mass which we don't use anymore unless you are part of a society which is in communion with us!"

I can tell you first hand that this does happen - I attended a Catholic event that I was invited to, and told the guy that I'm enquiring into Orthodoxy, with the immediate response being "Why not just become Byzantine Catholic? You can be in communion with Peter while being Byzantine!"


It is hard to me understand that, there are deep theological and philosophical diferences between RCC and EO, do they hold to orthodox christology and trinitarianism and roman ecclesiology at the same time? Augustinian/Tomism and Palamism at the same time? Do they hold to the filioque?

I thought that byzantine catholicism was regular catholicism, with all its philosophy, epistemology, dogmatics, with the use of byzantine rite for the mass and some minor eastern traditions, but allowing this kind of dicotomy between Rome and EO sounds spiritually confusing to me. It is like a WR orthodox parish allowing or fostering escolastic/tomistc theology, particular devotions to RC saints, Imaculate Conception...and still believe it is orthodox.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2018, 08:31:00 AM »

I can tell you first hand that this does happen - I attended a Catholic event that I was invited to, and told the guy that I'm enquiring into Orthodoxy, with the immediate response being "Why not just become Byzantine Catholic? You can be in communion with Peter while being Byzantine!"

I'm aware of it, since in Poland there is also a (Ukrainian) Greek Catholic Church and some traditional Roman Catholic converts to Orthodoxy (Polish Orthodox Church) are said that. Some of them in process of inquiring Orthodoxy pass through "Greec Catholic stage".


It is hard to me understand that, there are deep theological and philosophical diferences between RCC and EO, do they hold to orthodox christology and trinitarianism and roman ecclesiology at the same time? Augustinian/Tomism and Palamism at the same time? Do they hold to the filioque?

I thought that byzantine catholicism was regular catholicism, with all its philosophy, epistemology, dogmatics, with the use of byzantine rite for the mass and some minor eastern traditions, but allowing this kind of dicotomy between Rome and EO sounds spiritually confusing to me. It is like a WR orthodox parish allowing or fostering escolastic/tomistc theology, particular devotions to RC saints, Imaculate Conception...and still believe it is orthodox.

It depends a lot of Greek Catholic sui iuris Church and on country. For example, I know Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes that have normal 2nd Great Lent Sunday devoted to st. Gregory Palamans, while other parishes have changed structure and lesson of this Sunday. Some of them have incorporated into Pentecostarion Corpus Christi and Sacred Heart feasts, while others not.
Anyway, I think they're very "between" Orthodoxy and Catholicism and sometimes they do not know who are they. Of course, that's not good for spiritual development and consistent Church life.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 09:37:52 AM »
I should say also that my justification is not "eye for an eye", but rather, unless it's done by coercion or force, people should be allowed to express what they believe in in their own way if it's allowed by their own Church / Bishop, and doesn't go against Tradition.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 09:43:13 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 03:37:16 PM »
^

This attitude is why WR is unlikely to take off, absent a mass conversion of a stable group like the ACC. The pernicious identification of Orthodoxy with Byzantinism, as if the Constantinople rite is the very gospel itself, is widespread and seemingly incorrigible.

I agree with you.
Orthodoxy can't be only Byzantine rite. It can't be also only Eastern rites (Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian etc). Orthodox Church is the True Church, it's Catholic Church. So there is a place for every traditional rite.

+1

I really really wish we had some Western Rite parishes using the Ambrosian Rite, which is unavailable in the US, or anywhere outside the region of Milan, or the Mozarabic Rite, which is almost extinct (except in a highly watered down form the Anglican affiliates in Spain and Mexico use).
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2018, 06:07:34 AM »
Quote
I really really wish we had some Western Rite parishes using the Ambrosian Rite, which is unavailable in the US, or anywhere outside the region of Milan, or the Mozarabic Rite, which is almost extinct (except in a highly watered down form the Anglican affiliates in Spain and Mexico use).


I think the mozarabic rite is also used in Toledo, Spain by roman catholics.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2018, 06:49:46 AM »
Quote
I really really wish we had some Western Rite parishes using the Ambrosian Rite, which is unavailable in the US, or anywhere outside the region of Milan, or the Mozarabic Rite, which is almost extinct (except in a highly watered down form the Anglican affiliates in Spain and Mexico use).

I think the mozarabic rite is also used in Toledo, Spain by roman catholics.
Yes, there's a small number of Roman Catholic churches using the rito hispano-mozárabe in Southern Spain, Spanish Wikipedia has a full list. An anonymous Spaniard has done an amazing job compiling texts about the rite and Pre-Reconquista Spanish Christianity in general here. There's an Old Calendarist parish in New York doing the Mozarabic rite occasionally but they don't even have a priest.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 06:53:04 AM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2018, 08:33:46 AM »
Quote
I really really wish we had some Western Rite parishes using the Ambrosian Rite, which is unavailable in the US, or anywhere outside the region of Milan, or the Mozarabic Rite, which is almost extinct (except in a highly watered down form the Anglican affiliates in Spain and Mexico use).

I think the mozarabic rite is also used in Toledo, Spain by roman catholics.
Yes, there's a small number of Roman Catholic churches using the rito hispano-mozárabe in Southern Spain, Spanish Wikipedia has a full list. An anonymous Spaniard has done an amazing job compiling texts about the rite and Pre-Reconquista Spanish Christianity in general here. There's an Old Calendarist parish in New York doing the Mozarabic rite occasionally but they don't even have a priest.


http://subsidioliturgico.blogspot.com.br/2012/01/santa-misa-en-rito-mozarabe-versus-deum.html

News about mozarabic rite being celebrated in Toledo, with the presence of an orthodox bishop (canonical?) watching the liturgy. I hope you guys understand spanish.

http://www.acnsf.org.br/article/46282/O-Rito-Hispano-Mozarabe.html

Mozarabic rite being celebrated by Heralds of the Gospel from Spain.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 08:36:41 AM by juliogb »

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2018, 09:08:57 AM »
Quote
I really really wish we had some Western Rite parishes using the Ambrosian Rite, which is unavailable in the US, or anywhere outside the region of Milan, or the Mozarabic Rite, which is almost extinct (except in a highly watered down form the Anglican affiliates in Spain and Mexico use).

I think the mozarabic rite is also used in Toledo, Spain by roman catholics.
Yes, there's a small number of Roman Catholic churches using the rito hispano-mozárabe in Southern Spain, Spanish Wikipedia has a full list. An anonymous Spaniard has done an amazing job compiling texts about the rite and Pre-Reconquista Spanish Christianity in general here. There's an Old Calendarist parish in New York doing the Mozarabic rite occasionally but they don't even have a priest.


Due to this link I've found Cherubic Hymn in Latin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxhTASCCnUI
Quite amazing :)

Anyway, my professor of Al-Andalus history has tried to attend a mozarabic Mass in Toledo, but he had no luck, as the priest that can celebrate it was absent and it's generally treated simiarly as st. James Liturgy in EO: so, ancient, that can be celebrated and enrich our liturgical sensivity, but.. it's better not to celebrate as samothening lets say, common.
Anyway, I think that the old Wester rite should be used in Orthodoxy in their native countries, at least a few times a year. It would be a kind of mission and increasing awareness among EOs, for WROs and for RCs, and Anglicans.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2018, 01:47:10 PM »
Anyway, I think that the old Wester rite should be used in Orthodoxy in their native countries, at least a few times a year. It would be a kind of mission and increasing awareness among EOs, for WROs and for RCs, and Anglicans.
I think the Sarum rite in most of North America, the Mozarabic rite in Spanish America and the Bracarense rite in Brazil would be interesting choices, too.
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2018, 03:27:59 PM »
Anyway, I think that the old Wester rite should be used in Orthodoxy in their native countries, at least a few times a year. It would be a kind of mission and increasing awareness among EOs, for WROs and for RCs, and Anglicans.
I think the Sarum rite in most of North America, the Mozarabic rite in Spanish America and the Bracarense rite in Brazil would be interesting choices, too.

I don't get the huge interest in Sarum except as a variant of the traditional English rite. It was a local use. I don't see why it had to be suppressed, but I also don't see any reason for it to have spread outside the territory it was used in its 500-ish years of heyday.

Which is to say, why not Hereford, or York, or Bangor or Lincoln? We don't have to take our cues from the Oxfordians.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:37:41 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2018, 04:09:14 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2018, 04:13:06 PM »
In the Orthodox Church, several Old Catholic and Episcopalian high-liturgical parishes converted to Orthodoxy in the late 19th century and early 20th century, but asked the Russian Orthodox Church if it was possible if they could keep their liturgical practices. The Russian Orthodox Church held synods and published two liturgies - the "Liturgy of Saint Gregory" (a corrected Tridentine Mass - including leavened bread, removed Filioque, translated into native tongue, added Epiclesis / Cherubic Hymn) and the "Liturgy of Saint Tikhon" (a corrected Book of Common Prayer), and since then, some Orthodox Churches - in both ROCOR and Antioch - have been permitted to use such liturgies, such Churches called "Western Rite Orthodox."
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:15:17 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2018, 04:14:55 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

Within Orthodoxy, there are a minority of churches that are mainly attached to Antioch and ROCOR (though there are few others) that use traditional forms of worship found in the west. Some use the TLM; others use a version of the traditional Anglican liturgy that has been modified to better reflect Orthodoxy by adding invocations of the saints, a stronger epiclesis, etc.; and others use rites that were practiced in the west before the schism but which have since been suppressed by Rome.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2018, 04:17:17 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

Within Orthodoxy, there are a minority of churches that are mainly attached to Antioch and ROCOR (though there are few others) that use traditional forms of worship found in the west. Some use the TLM; others use a version of the traditional Anglican liturgy that has been modified to better reflect Orthodoxy by adding invocations of the saints, a stronger epiclesis, etc.; and others use rites that were practiced in the west before the schism but which have since been suppressed by Rome.

Okay thats fine buddy, just dont shut down the thread!
All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website. Hahahaha

Offline Agabus

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2018, 04:19:07 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

Within Orthodoxy, there are a minority of churches that are mainly attached to Antioch and ROCOR (though there are few others) that use traditional forms of worship found in the west. Some use the TLM; others use a version of the traditional Anglican liturgy that has been modified to better reflect Orthodoxy by adding invocations of the saints, a stronger epiclesis, etc.; and others use rites that were practiced in the west before the schism but which have since been suppressed by Rome.

Okay thats fine buddy, just dont shut down the thread!
All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website. Hahahaha

LOL. I think most folks here would characterize me as mild mannered.

But for those who are interested, I receive oblation in the bitcoin or Google wallet, whichever you prefer.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

Within Orthodoxy, there are a minority of churches that are mainly attached to Antioch and ROCOR (though there are few others) that use traditional forms of worship found in the west. Some use the TLM; others use a version of the traditional Anglican liturgy that has been modified to better reflect Orthodoxy by adding invocations of the saints, a stronger epiclesis, etc.; and others use rites that were practiced in the west before the schism but which have since been suppressed by Rome.

Okay thats fine buddy, just dont shut down the thread!
All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website. Hahahaha

LOL. I think most folks here would characterize me as mild mannered.

But for those who are interested, I receive oblation in the bitcoin or Google wallet, whichever you prefer.
lol

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2018, 04:28:58 PM »
As someone who converted form Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I have been pretty curious as to what the future of the Western Rite holds. Will it remain a niche market or will it be used to evangelize traditionally Catholic/Western areas. Will the WR also get one single liturgy that is used across all WR parishes?

Theres no such thing as a western rite. What is the western Rite? What do you speak off? The Novus Ordo Rite? The Latin Rite? The Mozarab Rite? The Gallician Rite? What are you talking about sir?

Within Orthodoxy, there are a minority of churches that are mainly attached to Antioch and ROCOR (though there are few others) that use traditional forms of worship found in the west. Some use the TLM; others use a version of the traditional Anglican liturgy that has been modified to better reflect Orthodoxy by adding invocations of the saints, a stronger epiclesis, etc.; and others use rites that were practiced in the west before the schism but which have since been suppressed by Rome.

Okay thats fine buddy, just dont shut down the thread!
All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website. Hahahaha

LOL. I think most folks here would characterize me as mild mannered.

But for those who are interested, I receive oblation in the bitcoin or Google wallet, whichever you prefer.

The only real Orthodox way to use cryptocurrency is to use Putin Coin.

I'm done.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2018, 06:00:42 PM »
Anyway, I think that the old Wester rite should be used in Orthodoxy in their native countries, at least a few times a year. It would be a kind of mission and increasing awareness among EOs, for WROs and for RCs, and Anglicans.
I think the Sarum rite in most of North America, the Mozarabic rite in Spanish America and the Bracarense rite in Brazil would be interesting choices, too.

I don't get the huge interest in Sarum except as a variant of the traditional English rite. It was a local use. I don't see why it had to be suppressed, but I also don't see any reason for it to have spread outside the territory it was used in its 500-ish years of heyday.

Which is to say, why not Hereford, or York, or Bangor or Lincoln? We don't have to take our cues from the Oxfordians.
IDK, are other forms of the English rite as attested? The Bracarense rite was also local, but I never read of any other well-atested pre-Tridentine Portuguese rite. Probably because Braga was the only place that kept their rite after Trent. I imagine Alentejo, for instance, might have its own way to pray mass, but what can we reconstruct about it? The Mozarabic rite seems to have had its own part in Portuguese Christianity, but one can't find much about it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 06:06:19 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2018, 06:16:17 PM »
Anyway, I think that the old Wester rite should be used in Orthodoxy in their native countries, at least a few times a year. It would be a kind of mission and increasing awareness among EOs, for WROs and for RCs, and Anglicans.
I think the Sarum rite in most of North America, the Mozarabic rite in Spanish America and the Bracarense rite in Brazil would be interesting choices, too.

I don't get the huge interest in Sarum except as a variant of the traditional English rite. It was a local use. I don't see why it had to be suppressed, but I also don't see any reason for it to have spread outside the territory it was used in its 500-ish years of heyday.

Which is to say, why not Hereford, or York, or Bangor or Lincoln? We don't have to take our cues from the Oxfordians.
IDK, are other forms of the English rite as attested? The Bracarense rite was also local, but I never read of any other well-atested pre-Tridentine Portuguese rite. Probably because Braga was the only place that kept their rite after Trent. I imagine Alentejo, for instance, might have its own way to pray mass, but what can we reconstruct about it?
They were well enough attested that they were mentioned as the major rites being replaced in the preface to the 1662 Common Prayer. I have seen a book with the English uses side-by-side for comparison, but it was in Latin.

Salisbury's/Sarum use was the most widespread of those, in part because Henry VIII embraced it when breaking with Rome, but I don't see why its resurrection is so vital while the others are not. York was used in the northern part of England (hence its name). I don't know if Hereford was ever more than a cathedral rite, but at least according to Wikipedia it was also used in Savoy for a season in the 13th century.

I'd like to see someone dig up the Bangor Use if for no reason than I've yet to see any WRO get all gooey-eyed about the glory of Wales.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2018, 03:25:11 PM »
I have seen a book with the English uses side-by-side for comparison, but it was in Latin.
Do you recall its name?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Future of the Western Rite?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2018, 03:32:25 PM »
I have seen a book with the English uses side-by-side for comparison, but it was in Latin.
Do you recall its name?
Like a good English religious text from the 1840s, its title is a mouthful: The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of England: According to the Uses of Sarum, Bangor, York, & Hereford, and the Modern Roman Liturgy Arranged in Parallel Columns

And like almost anything from the 1840s, its design leaves something to be desired.

But if you can read Latin, it may be illuminating. Footnotes are in English.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.