Poll

Can one logically or scientifically prove that the soul exists?

Yes
3 (20%)
No
5 (33.3%)
Unsure
6 (40%)
Other answer (please explain)
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closes: October 17, 2020, 12:31:15 PM

Author Topic: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?  (Read 2098 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2018, 12:40:09 PM »
A completely materialist conception of the soul is found in Democritus, Epicurus, and other philosophers.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2018, 01:31:12 PM »
Must be the Psyche or personal characteristics.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2018, 02:35:47 PM »
A completely materialist conception of the soul is found in Democritus, Epicurus, and other philosophers.

Alright. I was told Democritus's concept of the soul didn't count him as a true materialist in the modern sense, but I'll take your and Rapha's words for it.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2018, 03:04:01 PM »
A completely materialist conception of the soul is found in Democritus, Epicurus, and other philosophers.

Alright. I was told Democritus's concept of the soul didn't count him as a true materialist in the modern sense, but I'll take your and Rapha's words for it.

It was made of some especially fine atoms of some sort. Epicurus also taught that the gods exist- perfectly happy, immortal beings far away from our world and completely uninterested and uninvolved in human affairs. They are, of course, composed of atoms as well. Epicurean piety consisted of contemplating these beings as role models for our own simple, carefree life.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2018, 03:08:35 PM »
A completely materialist conception of the soul is found in Democritus, Epicurus, and other philosophers.

Alright. I was told Democritus's concept of the soul didn't count him as a true materialist in the modern sense, but I'll take your and Rapha's words for it.

It was made of some especially fine atoms of some sort. Epicurus also taught that the gods exist- perfectly happy, immortal beings far away from our world and completely uninterested and uninvolved in human affairs. They are, of course, composed of atoms as well. Epicurean piety consisted of contemplating these beings as role models for our own simple, carefree life.

I guess that kind of blurs the line between my mental model of the modern atheist and what would today be called New Age pseudoscience, heh.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »
I've seen modern atheist Epicureans try to dismiss the ancient Epicureans' theology as basically a front to stave off accusations of atheism and impiety and avoid persecution. They also point out that belief in these "gods" is not essential to the Epicurean ethical system. The latter point is probably valid but I get the sense the Epicureans were quite sincere in their belief.

The Epicureans' explanation for free will, as something based on a random atomic swerve, has some parallels with New Agers attempt to prove similar things from their dubious understanding of quantum mechanics.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2018, 04:53:06 PM »
I've seen modern atheist Epicureans try to dismiss the ancient Epicureans' theology as basically a front to stave off accusations of atheism and impiety and avoid persecution. They also point out that belief in these "gods" is not essential to the Epicurean ethical system. The latter point is probably valid but I get the sense the Epicureans were quite sincere in their belief.

Interesting. I didn't even know there were moderns who actually identified as Epicureans as opposed to just liking his pleasure-ethic.

The Epicureans' explanation for free will, as something based on a random atomic swerve, has some parallels with New Agers attempt to prove similar things from their dubious understanding of quantum mechanics.

Sounds like indeterminism, which I'm not even sure should be called free will, to be honest.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 04:53:23 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2018, 04:54:13 PM »
I've seen modern atheist Epicureans try to dismiss the ancient Epicureans' theology as basically a front to stave off accusations of atheism and impiety and avoid persecution. They also point out that belief in these "gods" is not essential to the Epicurean ethical system. The latter point is probably valid but I get the sense the Epicureans were quite sincere in their belief.
Sounds like someone is projecting their essentially modern sentiments onto older philosophers. Everyone was a closet atheist for them. It's like Afrocentrism with fedoras.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2018, 05:43:00 PM »
I've seen modern atheist Epicureans try to dismiss the ancient Epicureans' theology as basically a front to stave off accusations of atheism and impiety and avoid persecution. They also point out that belief in these "gods" is not essential to the Epicurean ethical system. The latter point is probably valid but I get the sense the Epicureans were quite sincere in their belief.

Interesting. I didn't even know there were moderns who actually identified as Epicureans as opposed to just liking his pleasure-ethic.

To be clear, this is a very tiny group numbering probably in the 10's; not really organized, just having forums and such. I suspect for most modern hedonists the Epicurean system is a bit too austere!
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2018, 08:27:15 PM »
I suspect for most modern hedonists the Epicurean system is a bit too austere!
Which is why they will hardly find the pleasure they're looking for. Buddhists are right about craving and pain. For all wrong Ayn Rand had, she seems to have found reasonable and functional criteria for pleasure.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 08:28:11 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2018, 03:23:23 PM »
Isn't there an intuitive aspect
When you present an intuition or enframing background belief, you are bringing it into a critical foreground that necessarily changes how it is for you. God, the soul, and free will then take articulation and rearticulation to even get clear on, let alone "believe in".

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Job does not seem to back up his allegation of his predicted future with any logical arguments or evidence. One could reasonably say that Job believed this based on common theologies of the era about God and about the afterlife, and that these beliefs are also found in the Torah and other places in the Bible. But maybe Job is just asserting that he knows these truths because of his intuition, in the sense of truths that are known inwardly, of the heart and mind?
Job takes these things as simply parts of reality. Reality that his shade will protest from Hades, reality that God lives. In other words, Job takes these things "for granted." For him these aren't beliefs any more than my experience of a room full of holistic objects is a belief. In the story these things are said not as treatments of faith but as part of his expression of faithfulness: He wants his day in court to seek an account from the Most High for his suffering.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 03:25:34 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can one logically prove that the soul exists?
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2018, 11:48:23 PM »
I've seen modern atheist Epicureans try to dismiss the ancient Epicureans' theology as basically a front to stave off accusations of atheism and impiety and avoid persecution. They also point out that belief in these "gods" is not essential to the Epicurean ethical system. The latter point is probably valid but I get the sense the Epicureans were quite sincere in their belief.

Interesting. I didn't even know there were moderns who actually identified as Epicureans as opposed to just liking his pleasure-ethic.

To be clear, this is a very tiny group numbering probably in the 10's; not really organized, just having forums and such. I suspect for most modern hedonists the Epicurean system is a bit too austere!

Ah, ok.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.