Author Topic: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book  (Read 670 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« on: January 20, 2018, 10:21:41 PM »
Okay, so (my goodness) I wanted to pull a few of the pages from this prayer book which had some questionable content within.

In particular, some aspects of the Sacred Heart (that is, playing a significant role outside the devotion into the prayers), the Eucharist involvement of the Sacred Heart, "uniting with Christ's sufferings," created graces from God, "mercies from God", merits, and Roman Catholic Atonement theory playing a role in these prayers.

I have uploaded the pictures of the seemingly problematic areas here (with the non-essential portions blurred out to respect the intellectual property of the Prayer Book; the shared images here are for fair use only):

https://mega.nz/#!r1wCBYDa!l1n1eoNtY-kaaHVt6tIaZWlaXZCOXXVNCe4CHI4ZKh8

(Image 116 was originally going to be a comment on how beautiful the book is, but due to the amount of pictures it is not relevant)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 10:24:05 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 10:38:36 PM »
There are other images in the prayers that evoke these doctrines / emotions, but I thought these images would be sufficient.
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 05:23:29 AM »
That's a lot of text to parse at the same time. Would you mind summarizing in a numbered list your issues with each page you posted?

Aside from the Sacred Heart stuff, the penitential stuff just looks more or less identical to a lot of Scriptural language to me. It's certainly not "created grace" to ask God to pour out His mercy on us, if that's what you're getting at.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:25:55 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 09:00:09 AM »
That's a lot of text to parse at the same time. Would you mind summarizing in a numbered list your issues with each page you posted?

Aside from the Sacred Heart stuff, the penitential stuff just looks more or less identical to a lot of Scriptural language to me. It's certainly not "created grace" to ask God to pour out His mercy on us, if that's what you're getting at.

"Eucharistic Heart of Jesus, increase in us our Faith, Hope, and Chairty."

"O God, whose mercies are without number, the treasure of Whose goodness is infinite, render thanks to Thy most gracious Majesty for the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us...."

"We beseech Thee, loving Father, to pour into our hearts the grace of an abounding gratitude..."

"...that whoatsoever defilements he may have contracted in the midst of this miserable and naughty world, through the lust of the flesh, or the wiles of Satan, being purged and done away...through the merits of the same Jesus Christ our Lord."

"In fullest reparation, expiation, and satisfaction for all my iniquities and negligences, and for the sins of the whole world, I offer unto Thee Thy Beloved Son, Christ Jesus, in union with that sovereign chairty with which Thou didst send Him to us....I offer His transcendent virtues....I offer the merits of the most Blessed Virgin Mary and of all thy Saints...."

"I praise Thee, I thank Thee, and I love Thee, all incapable and unworthy as I am, in union with Thy dear Son, Jesus Christ, our Savior and our God, in the mercifulness of His Heart and through His infinite merits..."

"For all Thy graces in the supernatural and natural order bestowed on us through and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, the Holy Ghost working them in us..."

And then there just a couple of texts which tend to be...I guess often a point of criticism, such as the contemplation of the Five Wounds.
I'm done.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,297
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 09:07:38 AM »
Are you aware that the word “grace” means more than one thing?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 09:49:18 AM »
Thanks.

Disregarding the Sacred Heart stuff for now:


"O God, whose mercies are without number, the treasure of Whose goodness is infinite, render thanks to Thy most gracious Majesty for the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us...."

Only a problem if you insist on reading Medieval Catholic "treasury of merits" thinking into it. Like the Filioque, there's better ways to read it.

"We beseech Thee, loving Father, to pour into our hearts the grace of an abounding gratitude..."

Quote from: James 4:5-6
Or do you think the Scripture says without reason that the Spirit He caused to dwell in us yearns with envy? But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “- God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

"...that whoatsoever defilements he may have contracted in the midst of this miserable and naughty world, through the lust of the flesh, or the wiles of Satan, being purged and done away...through the merits of the same Jesus Christ our Lord."

See above.

"In fullest reparation, expiation, and satisfaction for all my iniquities and negligences, and for the sins of the whole world, I offer unto Thee Thy Beloved Son, Christ Jesus, in union with that sovereign chairty with which Thou didst send Him to us....I offer His transcendent virtues....I offer the merits of the most Blessed Virgin Mary and of all thy Saints...."

Quote
"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

"For all Thy graces in the supernatural and natural order bestowed on us through and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, the Holy Ghost working them in us..."

Is there a difference between the Spirit and the Fruit of the Spirit?

And then there just a couple of texts which tend to be...I guess often a point of criticism, such as the contemplation of the Five Wounds.

Also probably better suited for the other thread.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 03:21:37 PM »
What about the "merit theology" as well as the "satisfaction" theory?
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Lancelot Andrewes Press Part 2: Saint Ambrose Prayer Book
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 04:54:58 PM »
What about the "merit theology" as well as the "satisfaction" theory?

Like I said, merit does not have to be read into those statements. "Satisfaction" has meant a lot of things over the years and can also be interpreted in an Orthodox manner.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.