Author Topic: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...  (Read 1750 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« on: January 17, 2018, 05:24:01 PM »
So, last year I found out about Lancelot Andrews Press, a self claiming "Western Orthodox" press which has published some quite beautiful books.

A friend of mine in my Church who is a fan of the Western Rite bought their "Saint Ambrose's Prayer Book", which is based on the Saint Augustine's Prayer Book.

I borrowed it - absolutely beautiful with beautiful imagery and leather; a super product.

However, upon using it I noticed a couple of things.

First, there are prayers to the Sacred Heart.
Now, I won't open up that debate here, but succinct to say that I find it odd that the prayer book which claims to be Orthodox would put in such a controversial devotion, and indeed - actually hides it from the table of contents found on their website.

Okay... so I'll just avoid that particular devotion. However, upon using the prayer book some more, I came across some more problems - I remember reading a specific prayer (probably an evening or morning prayer) and stopping, upon reading an invocation for God's created graces.

I loved the prayer book, but I decided to keep using it, while "correcting" heterodox content in prayer. Naturally, this pride led me to spiritual regression (it could've been just a placebo effect).

I returned it to my friend, and I did some more research.

I found out none of their books have been approved either by ROCOR or Antioch, unlike other Western Orthodox presses (like Kellbride Press and Saint Luke's Priory), according to Orthodox Wiki.

They also don't seem to visibly be affiliated with any canonical Orthodox Church.

So this leads to a few questions,

1. Who are they? Who is running the press? Are they with a canonical Orthodox Church?
2. Who is checking it for Orthodox content? They have done some Orthodox revisions, like using the Liturgy of Saint Gregory that was edited and the Nicene Creed without the Filioque. However, who is doing this?
3. Is there in fact heterodox content that is detrimental to the Orthodox Faith?


A lot of laymen are buying this book and other publications with trust, and
I just don't want the Western Rite to lose legitimacy if this was found to spread heresy.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 08:26:21 PM »
TWO UPDATES:

1. The domain name appears to be registered to a man by the name of John Connely at the address of Saint Mark's Orthodox Church in Denver, Colorado. This is a canonical Western Rite Orthodox Church under the Holy Patriarch of Antioch.

https://whois.icann.org/en/lookup?name=andrewespress.com

http://antiochian.org/parish/35025

After doing some research, the two are directly connected; the official website of Saint Mark's Church has links on their home page to Lancelot Andrewes Press, and the parish itself is run by the Rev. Father John Connely. He used to run a publication called "Lux Occidentalis" (Light of the West, a play off of John Paul II's writings about the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches called "Light of the East"), in which he would discuss Western liturgical tradition. It doesn't seem to be published anymore, with the last official posting from 2013.

So we know the store is from an official, Orthodox source.

2. After looking at the table of contents, the "Sacred Heart" devotion is listed - not with the "Contents of the Book" section; rather, it is listed right before.

"Some readers may be surprised by the inclusion of the prayers and devotion in honour of the most sacred Heart of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ....As with other elements of the Western Catholic tradition, in the Saint Ambrose Prayer Book, tender devotion to the love of God as reflected in the Heart of the God-Man "has been put back into proper balance.""

http://andrewespress.com/Websites/lancelotandrewespress/images/ambrose_prayer.pdf

However, not much has been changed if memory recalls correctly in terms of the devotion itself, with prayers still to the Heart of Jesus.

Is this spiritually dangerous? Yes or no?

The priest is more educated than I am, but nonetheless, I still have concern of this devotion being included - I don't want to take risks. Is it Truth, or is not Truth.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:28:34 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 08:36:01 PM »
As I’ve said before, the sacred heart weirds me out personally, it’s not something that interests me, but when I hear it explained I don’t see anything wrong with it. I would relax. Ignore it if it bothers you.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 08:37:31 PM »
As I’ve said before, the sacred heart weirds me out personally, it’s not something that interests me, but when I hear it explained I don’t see anything wrong with it. I would relax. Ignore it if it bothers you.
What about some prayers that seem to use "created grace" in their prayers? Does anybody who owns this book know what I'm talking about?
The idea of created grace is a Thomistic / Scholastic idea.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:37:48 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 09:00:37 PM »
Quote the passage in question. Also, I believe Thomistic “created grace” really refers to what we would deem the effects of grace in creatures. I think the Palamites and Thomists were talking past each other here.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 10:05:38 PM »
I don't have the book on me, but I can share it on Saturday after Vespers.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 11:12:54 PM »
If anyone who owns it can look into it, let me know!

If it is problematic, I just don't want the Western Liturgical Tradition to be harmed.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:19:24 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 11:04:20 AM »
If it is problematic, I just don't want the Western Liturgical Tradition to be harmed.

About 550 years too late for that. ;)

LAP is a weird venture. It's Orthodox people publishing Catholic texts as translated by Anglicans. Their productions certainly score high marks on presentation, but I can't speak to the contents themselves. I know some of the devotions are a subject of debate among the WRO, but I don't know how much or if it's even a legitimate debate or just the scruples of converts looking to reject something. (I have a similar feeling about the Sacred Heart to what Iconodule has articulated).

LAP's publications don't necessarily seem at odds with WRO practice, but they may be at variance. The Antiochain WRO Ordo, for example, dictates that the mass propers will follow the 1958 English Missal, with preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week forms. The LAP Missal follows the 1951 American edition. I couldn't tell you the differences if you wanted to know, so they may be nothing.

The St. Ambrose Prayerbook is just a lightly tailored version of the St. Augustine Prayerbook.

I'd assume that the Diurnal and breviary matins publications would present no one problems since the hours are just the psalms and canticles anyway.
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 11:09:13 AM »
Just say the prayers in the morning and then the evening.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 12:01:03 PM »
By "harmed" I mean the Western Rite in the Orthodox Church to lose legitimacy after supporting heterodox beliefs.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2018, 12:25:42 PM »
Antiochain WRO Ordo, for example, dictates that the mass propers will follow the 1958 English Missal, with preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week forms. The LAP Missal follows the 1951 American edition. I couldn't tell you the differences if you wanted to know, so they may be nothing.

What's the use for publishing a missal that has no use for anything?
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 12:30:38 PM »
Antiochain WRO Ordo, for example, dictates that the mass propers will follow the 1958 English Missal, with preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week forms. The LAP Missal follows the 1951 American edition. I couldn't tell you the differences if you wanted to know, so they may be nothing.

What's the use for publishing a missal that has no use for anything?

There's the official missal, but other books (e.g. the St. Andrews Service Book, which is easily available) have been given blessing to be used even if they aren't widespread in the churches. TBH, I'm not sure that there's a lot of difference between any of them other than that the St. Luke Priory is now the official source.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 12:53:52 PM »
Why is an Orthodox Press even named after Lancelot Andrewes of all people?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 12:59:50 PM »
Why is an Orthodox Press even named after Lancelot Andrewes of all people?

Because I think it exemplifies a serious concern on the topic of Western Rite Orthodoxy - that people just want to be Catholics or Episcopalians under the umbrella of the Orthodox Church.

Obviously, while I don't think that's the case at all with the idea of Western Rite Orthodoxy, nor do I think adapting certain Catholic or Anglican aesthetics post-schism makes one heterodox, nor adapting Orthodox Western prayers that originate post-schism - nonetheless, the mentality and mindset of remaining Episcopalian or Catholic is still a problem that should be discussed.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 01:10:02 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2018, 01:05:02 PM »
Why is an Orthodox Press even named after Lancelot Andrewes of all people?

Because it exemplifies a serious concern on the topic of Western Rite Orthodoxy - that people just want to be Catholics or Episcopalians under the umbrella of the Orthodox Church.

Mm, no. It goes back to an idea of the Caroline divines as being beacons of catholicity. It's not really true- they clearly maintained Protestant commitments. Lancelot Andrewes did seem interested in Eastern prayers and liturgics and included them in his private devotions. Maybe if he were in the right circumstances he would have been Orthodox? That seems to be the thought anyway.
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2018, 01:06:12 PM »
Okay.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 08:00:19 AM »
As I’ve said before, the sacred heart weirds me out personally, it’s not something that interests me, but when I hear it explained I don’t see anything wrong with it. I would relax. Ignore it if it bothers you.

+1

I get “weirded out” by the faint whiff of Nestorianism, but frankly your average Calvinist Fundamentalist (Baptist, Presbyterian, or what-have-you) is much more Nestorian than anything in the Roman Catholic Church or even the Assyrian church.  The people who are using this prayer are clearly not Nestorian.

I think a major relaxation concerning the more pious forms of Roman Catholicism would be productive.  The main thing to not be relaxed about is their inability to maintain liturgical discipline, engaging in blasphemies like clown masses.  In the context of ecumenical reconciliation between Rome and the Orthodox Church, that seems to be a much more pressing issue.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2018, 08:10:20 AM »
Why is an Orthodox Press even named after Lancelot Andrewes of all people?

Because it exemplifies a serious concern on the topic of Western Rite Orthodoxy - that people just want to be Catholics or Episcopalians under the umbrella of the Orthodox Church.

Mm, no. It goes back to an idea of the Caroline divines as being beacons of catholicity. It's not really true- they clearly maintained Protestant commitments. Lancelot Andrewes did seem interested in Eastern prayers and liturgics and included them in his private devotions. Maybe if he were in the right circumstances he would have been Orthodox? That seems to be the thought anyway.

Indeed so.  The Caroline Divines, the Scottish Non-Juring Episcopalians, and even John Wesley can be said to have inclined towards Orthodoxy; Lancelot Andrewes (and I think that other great Lancelot, Lancelot Brenton, the 18th century translator of the Septuagint into English, would also fall in this group) were inclined towards Orthodoxy devotionally, the Non-Juring Episcopalians were inclined to us liturgically and also in terms of, in some cases, an actual desire to become a part of the Orthodox communion, and John Wesley for his part basically reintroduced Theosis soteriology into the West, alas, only for his articulation of it to be forgotten by the mainstream Methodists, corrupted by the Holiness Movement in the late 19th century and being warped into the perversity of Pentecostalism.

The real tragedy is that a complex set of factors such as the more convenient access to the Roman Catholic Church facilitated by religious freedom in the US and the Catholic Emancipation Acts in the UK (which rather horribly postdated the Doctrine of the Trinity Act, so Unitarianism, grotesquely, became officially tolerated prior to the oppressed and persecuted Catholics), politics, the continuing war in Anglicanism between the low church and high church factions, and other problems.

All of this however led to the Western Rite emerging, almost directly.  The first people in both denominations which later were grafted onto and restored into fellowship with Holy Orthodoxy through ROCOR and Antioch, were predominantly of high church Anglican backgrounds.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2018, 08:12:20 AM »
Quote the passage in question. Also, I believe Thomistic “created grace” really refers to what we would deem the effects of grace in creatures. I think the Palamites and Thomists were talking past each other here.

Again, I agree with you entirely.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 10:14:38 PM »
To be clear, LAP is not specifically Orthodox and is intentionally set up that way. It provides resources for traditional Western Christians of many varieties. Yes, its proprietors are Orthodox, but the mission of the press extends beyond Orthodoxy. There are no dark motives, or hidden agendas, or lingering desires to be Anglican instead of Orthodox (although one could accurately describe the Western Rite as Orthodoxy with an "Anglican" flavor, preserving much of the beauty of that tradition).


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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2018, 08:35:46 AM »
To be clear, LAP is not specifically Orthodox and is intentionally set up that way. It provides resources for traditional Western Christians of many varieties. Yes, its proprietors are Orthodox, but the mission of the press extends beyond Orthodoxy. There are no dark motives, or hidden agendas, or lingering desires to be Anglican instead of Orthodox (although one could accurately describe the Western Rite as Orthodoxy with an "Anglican" flavor, preserving much of the beauty of that tradition).

Ah, Ok. Thanks.
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 12:10:23 PM »
To be clear, LAP is not specifically Orthodox and is intentionally set up that way. It provides resources for traditional Western Christians of many varieties. Yes, its proprietors are Orthodox, but the mission of the press extends beyond Orthodoxy. There are no dark motives, or hidden agendas, or lingering desires to be Anglican instead of Orthodox (although one could accurately describe the Western Rite as Orthodoxy with an "Anglican" flavor, preserving much of the beauty of that tradition).

"The St. Ambrose Prayer Book is 450 pages and is comparable to the St. Augustine’s Prayer Book but edited for the devotional practices of Orthodox Faithful of the Western Rite."
"A trade discount on bulk orders of 10 or more are available for churches and book stores."

http://andrewespress.com/st-ambrose-prayerbook?ReturnUrl=LwA%3D

I think the Sacred Heart devotion is one that should already raise enough questions - (although the priest who owns the press does have an MA, and I am but a Neophyte) however, I will need to reference the "Created Graces" portion of the book in question. I should get the book today, I will post it later tonight.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 12:12:11 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2018, 01:25:35 PM »
 
(although the priest who owns the press does have an MA, and I am but a Neophyte)

You're not even a neophyte.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 01:36:49 PM »
(although the priest who owns the press does have an MA, and I am but a Neophyte)

You're not even a neophyte.

Fair enough; but is my point not substantive?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:36:58 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 03:43:10 PM »
To be clear, LAP is not specifically Orthodox and is intentionally set up that way. It provides resources for traditional Western Christians of many varieties. Yes, its proprietors are Orthodox, but the mission of the press extends beyond Orthodoxy. There are no dark motives, or hidden agendas, or lingering desires to be Anglican instead of Orthodox (although one could accurately describe the Western Rite as Orthodoxy with an "Anglican" flavor, preserving much of the beauty of that tradition).

Sleeper arise!

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 11:50:11 PM »
To be clear, LAP is not specifically Orthodox and is intentionally set up that way. It provides resources for traditional Western Christians of many varieties. Yes, its proprietors are Orthodox, but the mission of the press extends beyond Orthodoxy. There are no dark motives, or hidden agendas, or lingering desires to be Anglican instead of Orthodox (although one could accurately describe the Western Rite as Orthodoxy with an "Anglican" flavor, preserving much of the beauty of that tradition).

Sleeper arise!

😁

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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 12:51:44 AM »
I get “weirded out” by the faint whiff of Nestorianism
How so
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:51:53 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Questions about Lancelot Andrews Press...
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2018, 06:29:27 PM »
(although the priest who owns the press does have an MA, and I am but a Neophyte)

You're not even a neophyte.

Fair enough; but is my point not substantive?

Remind me what your point was?