Author Topic: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it  (Read 978 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« on: January 17, 2018, 05:20:31 AM »
I felt this when praying ..

He who has the Son has life. Those who abide in righteousness only do so because they truly have the Son and are set free by the truth which is full belief in jesus and full knowledge of the gospel as seed on good soil. For the law came through moses but grace and truth through Jesus Christ. Of His fullness we have all received and grace for grace

So only those with seed on good soil are true believers

Because even when we were dead in trespasses and sins He made us alive together with Him. By grace you are saved and not of works lest any should boast

We do have to work but it is by continually abiding in vine for without Him we can do nothing

Hit me any scripture that says we maintain our salvation by our strong will. No it is our job to give our heart and will to jesus fully so we may have knowledge of truth for regeneration as He said this is the will of God you believe in Him whom He sent
If we must have strong will then we must obtain that through grace of jesus
He can strengthen  all the weak

The one who after washing returns to his wallowing in the mire does so because he has fallen away from the knowledge of truth so has no power. You shall know them by their fruits. A bad tree can not bear good fruit and a good tree can not bear bad fruit. We are we abiding in the tree ?

When jesus said watch lest thief steals your salvation it means watch lest you fall away From believing in grace since Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be called children of God
Therefore if God loves us He is not going to make it difficult for those who always wish to do God’s will but are weak as said in psalm 103 God mercy is everlasting to everlasting on those who mean to be His servants

If God accepts us no priest ought to have any authority over us for He who gave up His own Son how shall He not give us freely all things as it is written you prepare a table before me in the midst of all my enemies. That is God gives the communion if you are righteous the priest must minister it but I must not be righteous if there is no one to give

God wills that all come to have communion so He will judge those who wish to have communion but others prevent it. Thanks God no one has prevented me.

If the church can prevent anyone just because of a sin even if he really wishes to change but never changes I doubt the church because God judges us on our desire for communion and even if we have to change I’m not sure then the servants of God must seek to prepare and correct us to be worthy not leave us alone to sort ourselves out and judge us for our sins
I think perhaps even if we want communion God would take it as though we took it we still needs to be orthodox in belief and intention and also by willing cooperation with the priests if they extend their hand. But that is just a guess because I believe the priests always extend their hand so there is no excuse if a person does not actually have communion

Jesus said unless you be as little children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven so not only greatest is he who humbles himself as this little child

What do little children do they reconcile with their enemy they seek peace with everyone good or bad
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 05:31:53 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 05:53:28 AM »
Some topics are important so I believe I should speak if I have knowlege and it is edifying. Paul said he wishes all could edify
At some point we should wish we were spiritually strong not to need each other on forums but that we each had fullness of Holy Spirit and if church is stronger

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 06:05:09 AM »
When jesus said watch lest thief steals your salvation it means watch lest you fall away From believing in grace since Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified

Okay I messed up here yes you must watch to stay away from sin but I guess it is by reading the word to gain knowledge of truth if your reading is benefited also with praying

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 06:06:45 AM »
Some topics are important so I believe I should speak if I have knowlege and it is edifying. Paul said he wishes all could edify
At some point we should wish we were spiritually strong not to need each other on forums but that we each had fullness of Holy Spirit and if church is stronger

We have to aspire to lead a quiet life not talk much because we have to fulfill the commandments not just talk about them we waste time sometimes needed to do the commandments if we are talking

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 10:27:00 AM »
Thought id share this from holy fathers Facebook page. Maybe I am wrong and we need to be safe and be aware it is hard  but with God all things are possible. God’s strength  is made perfect in our weakness that is by acknowledging we are weak and seeking His strength not expecting His help to come by thinking our sin is okay because we are weak. Maybe we found it too hard because it was actually impossible because we never pressed into God strength

« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:35:32 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2018, 04:21:33 PM »
Psalm 103:17-18
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18 To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

We still must do the commandments

Proverbs 9 says wisdom has sent out her maidens to all who are foolish so the priest must not turn away the foolish but the communion is to turn him away from foolishness.

Proverbs 9
3 She has sent out her maidens,
She cries out from the highest places of the city,
4 “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!”
As for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 “Come, eat of my bread
And drink of the wine I have mixed.
6 Forsake foolishness and live,
And go in the way of understanding.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 04:32:58 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2018, 05:39:55 PM »
Proverbs 9
3 She has sent out her maidens,
She cries out from the highest places of the city,
4 “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!”
As for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 “Come, eat of my bread
And drink of the wine I have mixed.

6 Forsake foolishness and live,
And go in the way of understanding.

Unless the underlined part means those who do not understand the necessity for communion but the point is still the same that you seek to save all the foolish. But the whole passage seems to be about getting wisdom in life so it seems communion gives wisdom

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 05:40:56 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2018, 06:28:09 PM »
“Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God’s mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.” -St. John Chrysostom

God's not looking for an excuse to punish us. We need to be vigilant, yes, but we can't be so obsessed with it that it paralyzes us. Likewise, the salvation of others is not in our hands, but in God's. Just "do good to all men" (Galatians 6:10) and if somebody asks you what you think or blasphemes Christ in front of you, then give them the most polite answer that you can about the hope you have in you.

That, and prayer, is all that anybody can be expected to do.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:28:46 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2018, 09:28:23 PM »
Thanks :)

I believe that saying by Chrysostom which I heard before is difficult but true.
I still have trouble understanding John Chrysostom because though I may consider my sins are so deplorable that no good deed could cover it I still believe we have to see if we are really being saved with our good deeds. I guess St. John Chrysostom is saying we must really feel chief of sinners to be justified and do good works because otherwise we are stumbling block to others
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:39:04 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2018, 09:51:31 PM »
Thanks :)

I believe that saying by Chrysostom which I heard before is difficult but true.
I still have trouble understanding John Chrysostom because though I may consider my sins are so deplorable that no good deed could cover it I still believe we have to see if we are really being saved with our good deeds. I guess St. John Chrysostom is saying we must really feel chief of sinners to be justified and do good works because otherwise we are stumbling block to others

None of us are capable of being justified by our deeds. It is only by the grace of God that we can even do good works in the first place. Any good intentions or deeds that we might have are gifts from Him.

That doesn't mean we don't have to cooperate with Him, but even the positive decisions for God are gifts that He offers us.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2018, 10:09:43 PM »
Thanks :)

I believe that saying by Chrysostom which I heard before is difficult but true.
I still have trouble understanding John Chrysostom because though I may consider my sins are so deplorable that no good deed could cover it I still believe we have to see if we are really being saved with our good deeds. I guess St. John Chrysostom is saying we must really feel chief of sinners to be justified and do good works because otherwise we are stumbling block to others

None of us are capable of being justified by our deeds. It is only by the grace of God that we can even do good works in the first place. Any good intentions or deeds that we might have are gifts from Him.

That doesn't mean we don't have to cooperate with Him, but even the positive decisions for God are gifts that He offers us.

I agree without Him preparing good work for us and helping us we could never do good but there is struggle involved in salvation in being in the truth and allowing Him to bear fruits worthy of salvation

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:09:58 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 08:37:31 AM »
Thanks :)

I believe that saying by Chrysostom which I heard before is difficult but true.
I still have trouble understanding John Chrysostom because though I may consider my sins are so deplorable that no good deed could cover it I still believe we have to see if we are really being saved with our good deeds. I guess St. John Chrysostom is saying we must really feel chief of sinners to be justified and do good works because otherwise we are stumbling block to others

None of us are capable of being justified by our deeds. It is only by the grace of God that we can even do good works in the first place. Any good intentions or deeds that we might have are gifts from Him.

That doesn't mean we don't have to cooperate with Him, but even the positive decisions for God are gifts that He offers us.

I agree without Him preparing good work for us and helping us we could never do good but there is struggle involved in salvation in being in the truth and allowing Him to bear fruits worthy of salvation

Agreed. It's something of a dance, but God is the initiator and leader so that it can never be said that we saved ourselves. We only cooperated.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 11:48:10 PM »
I agreed so I didn’t reply but I just want to make clear I don’t think going to heaven is easy.
God shows us exactly what we have to do we have to obey His commands not our will and works however great they are for in doing our will we will lay aside the Commands of God
So we can not save ourselves apart from Him but it is still difficult and we have to strive to do His will.
The apostle Paul says He is able to make us will and to do for His good pleasure but we must strive for His grace. Paul never was confident because of previous works that he would continue but he said he pressed forward to goal and he said he continues striving that he may by any means attain to the resurrection of the dead.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:58:21 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 12:22:27 AM »
God can save all sinners who are alive but they don’t know if they will die early and not repent even to be counted among those of the eleventh hour. Some I suppose repent and die early and are counted among those of the eleventh hour if they didn’t work much but repented and deserved to die in Christ without sin. Those who live long must come to repentance even if it is last hour but those who lived long and delay repentance may die without seeking repentance. So it is written today is the day of salvation. God can give multiple chances in a short life but everyone will have enough chances God wants to give that person which is fair and God judges what is fair.

1 Timothy 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 12:32:26 AM »
The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force

Only the patient in spirit shall inherit the promises
God is always working but you can’t keep resisting Him
In your patience possess your souls God is with you always it is difficult but with God help you can be patient but it may always be a difficult struggle .Don’t try to be patient without reading the scriptures and praying which develop patience which is fruit of the spirit
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:36:46 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 02:54:43 AM »
The problem with what I am saying is I may make people think you can be lazy and go to heaven.
God expects us to strive to enter the narrow gate for many will seek to enter and will not be able if you are lazy you may have no oil at time of death
You have to work hard to go to heaven but it has to be all the Lord will and according to your talent and ability
If that is true that you have to work hard does that mean there is no hope for those who do not or never worked hard and they can’t repent so they will never find God just before death ?
But the lazy servant could have given to banker you just have to be profitable that may have been work and that may have been accepted if that was all he could do and/or/because not planning it beforehand to delay
You have to work hard inwardly also together with that do outward works of ministry.The inward work is supported by the outward work. Unless you can work hard and help others living alone but how will you fulfill your potential to minister to others if you live alone?
We trust God gives opportunity to all living sinners to repent so everyone can find salvation but you must not delay the opportunity because you don’t know how many chances you will get and having opportunity you must work very hard. If you are going to delay you are not safe with this message and those who heard must strive to enter by the narrow gate

Protestantism is very dangerous because they believe there is no hard work to get to heaven
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 02:59:47 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 04:27:33 AM »
My dad has interpreted before many will seek to enter and not be able to mean people will try to believe in jesus after death but too late but I see it as more than that. Ofcourse my dad also believes in repentance but maybe he does not believe in the struggle involved being difficult but he also rebukes me for being lazy so he may think it is a sign of not believing in Him which he says is trust or love like father Abraham not the belief in jesus which demons have because those who know their God intimately and love Him will work to please Him. So he thinks we are not alone but it is easy with God but I believe the struggle may be very difficult to know Him and have Him work in us and to work for Him
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 04:29:23 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2018, 09:15:06 AM »
My dad has interpreted before many will seek to enter and not be able to mean people will try to believe in jesus after death but too late but I see it as more than that. Ofcourse my dad also believes in repentance but maybe he does not believe in the struggle involved being difficult but he also rebukes me for being lazy so he may think it is a sign of not believing in Him which he says is trust or love like father Abraham not the belief in jesus which demons have because those who know their God intimately and love Him will work to please Him. So he thinks we are not alone but it is easy with God but I believe the struggle may be very difficult to know Him and have Him work in us and to work for Him

The same Jesus who said "Narrow is the way" also said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." The two have to be held in tension and focusing too much on either one can cause problems, I think.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2018, 04:30:32 AM »
My dad has interpreted before many will seek to enter and not be able to mean people will try to believe in jesus after death but too late but I see it as more than that. Ofcourse my dad also believes in repentance but maybe he does not believe in the struggle involved being difficult but he also rebukes me for being lazy so he may think it is a sign of not believing in Him which he says is trust or love like father Abraham not the belief in jesus which demons have because those who know their God intimately and love Him will work to please Him. So he thinks we are not alone but it is easy with God but I believe the struggle may be very difficult to know Him and have Him work in us and to work for Him

The same Jesus who said "Narrow is the way" also said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." The two have to be held in tension and focusing too much on either one can cause problems, I think.

True thankyou :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 04:31:45 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Grace vs works. Please help me find heresy in it
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 09:28:43 PM »
The mark of almost all heresies is often not to deny a truth, but to affirm it at the exclusion of other truths.
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