Author Topic: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?  (Read 1513 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« on: January 08, 2018, 07:05:01 PM »
Here's a question: without getting into the specifics of Catholic Marian apparitions, it seems that the Guadalupe image has played a significant role in Latin America, such that even Orthodox Churches have used it in their iconography - even using it as an "Incarnation" icon.

I know that it may be in part subjective, but is the Guadalupe painting a valid icon in its art?

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:05:41 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 07:09:05 PM »
No its Roman Catholic and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:09:47 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:35:29 PM »
I believe we have enough obviously Orthodox Marian art to go on endless and pointless discussions about publicly venerating particular stuff from outside the Church.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:51 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 07:48:02 PM »
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 08:00:10 PM »
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.

Jackson02 and RaphaCam's posts are completely correct.

The presence of this image in an Orthodox church is an error, just as "icons" of St Francis of Assisi at New Skete are wrong. Neither the Guadalupe Madonna nor Francis were or are part of Orthodox tradition, and to attempt to shoehorn them into the Church in the name of cultural relevance is a grave mistake.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 08:28:57 PM »
But from the artwork style in of itself, and if this icon were detached from the events of Our Lady of Guadalupe's apparition to Juan Diego (whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction), would it be acceptable from an iconographic point of view?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 08:29:14 PM »
There's nothing wrong with this holy icon. Raise it proudly.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 08:33:19 PM »
But from the artwork style in of itself, and if this icon were detached from the events of Our Lady of Guadalupe's apparition to Juan Diego (whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction), would it be acceptable from an iconographic point of view?

The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 08:37:19 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:41:02 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline biro

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 08:43:05 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 08:46:46 PM »
Francis of Assisi did not paint or commission the San Damiano cross, and there is little if anything that is doctrinally objectionable in what is depicted on it. OTOH, if Juan Diego had not seen the vision, there would not be an Our Lady of Guadalupe for his church to venerate.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 08:50:19 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:51:59 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 08:58:20 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

In theaters June 2018, Derp de Derp!

You realize you're laughing at yourself, because it's a thread you started?

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My bad.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:03:45 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 09:22:03 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 09:27:28 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.

This apparition is not, and has never been, part of Orthodox tradition, either as an icon, or, just as importantly, in liturgical commemoration. Just as there is no Orthodox acceptance of Fatima or Medjugorje.  Let the Roman Catholics venerate it, by all means. It's their tradition, it can never be ours.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:29:18 PM by LBK »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 09:57:18 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.

This apparition is not, and has never been, part of Orthodox tradition, either as an icon, or, just as importantly, in liturgical commemoration. Just as there is no Orthodox acceptance of Fatima or Medjugorje.  Let the Roman Catholics venerate it, by all means. It's their tradition, it can never be ours.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 10:07:57 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 10:20:19 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one. Catholics did a lot of things before 1724, and yet we have not willy nilly adopted all of those other traditions. I would just as soon have icons painted like a 1930's Disney cartoon than include something so far out of mainstream Orthodoxy.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 10:21:27 PM »
Guadalupe, Wow! What a signal mark of Heaven's favor. Had it been in the first Christian millenium, all Christians would have revered and venerated the Virgin who there crushed infanticide, heathen serpent worship, ritual child-killing and much else besides. "He opened the tilma to show them and, to everyone's astonishment, the Image of Our Lady appeared on it. The Bishop then built the church as Our Lady had requested and ten million natives were converted and baptized to the one, true faith within the next 10 years. Human sacrifice ended in Mexico forever. Our Lady of Guadalupe, which means Crusher of the serpent's head, brought the light of the true faith, crushed the false gods of Mexico, and established an era of peace." https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-amazing-truth-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe.html

St. Juan Diego learnt the serpent gods were false and that the Virgin Mary was "the Virgin Mother of the true God for Whom we must live." A fulfilment of the ancient prophesy, "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Gen 3:15). Untold millions came into the Church in droves; hardly had the greatest of Apostles ever been able to do what the Queen of the Apostles did with such ease in 10 years; when the sacred icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe was carried into Lepanto, as Catholic Europe sought the intercession of the Mother of God, the Islamist invasion there was driven back. http://catholicexchange.com/lepanto-the-day-our-lady-saved-christendom Everywhere, the veneration of Our Lady of Guadulupe brought the richest fruits and the greatest blessings.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:24:17 PM by Xavier »

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2018, 10:26:49 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.
What parts remained in communion? It sounds like the unia before it was the unia.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:27:07 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2018, 10:31:29 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 10:37:55 PM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 12:12:01 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Those churches were the Melkites which were thinking of reuniting with the Roman Catholic Church anyway. This doesn't make the Guadalupe image a true icon.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 01:02:58 AM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
I'll admit there is truth to your post.  The trust for bishops & theologians (mostly) I have unlearned. 


Time and again, over many threads and countless posts, folks here have tried to show you the error of your ways regarding icons, drawing from all areas of Orthodox tradition...You persist in using yourself as the ultimate authority on this matter.

;)
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 01:12:10 AM »
(whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction)

I know some Orthodox polemicists love to lean on this crutch when it comes to RC apparitions, but that's one seriously dumb demon if his long con was to get people to pray to the Mother of God and worship Jesus.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 03:27:22 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 04:03:45 AM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
I'll admit there is truth to your post.  The trust for bishops & theologians (mostly) I have unlearned. 


Time and again, over many threads and countless posts, folks here have tried to show you the error of your ways regarding icons, drawing from all areas of Orthodox tradition...You persist in using yourself as the ultimate authority on this matter.

;)

Nice try.  ::)

How many Orthodox bishops support the veneration of the Guadalupe image, not just by allowing the image into churches, but by liturgical veneration as well? What is the feast day for it? What hymns to the image are read, chanted and sung? How do these bishops justify the liturgical extolling of the vision of a man who was never part of the Orthodox Church? Etc.

I stand fully by my earlier posts.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 06:34:50 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?

On the basis that the Mother of God appeared to an indigenous man and helped bring the light of Christ to a place where demonic idolatry was rampant.

So the question is begged, on what basis is it excluded?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2018, 09:02:41 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?

On the basis that the Mother of God appeared to an indigenous man and helped bring the light of Christ to a place where demonic idolatry was rampant.

So the question is begged, on what basis is it excluded?

Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:03:57 AM by ErmyCath »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2018, 10:14:44 AM »
Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).

I'll be honest, there was a time I thought this way too. But you really have to wonder when your obdurate sectarianism takes you to a place where you would rather people keep sacrificing each other to Tezcatlipoca than convert to Catholicism. This is simply insane.

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2018, 11:29:49 AM »
Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).

I'll be honest, there was a time I thought this way too. But you really have to wonder when your obdurate sectarianism takes you to a place where you would rather people keep sacrificing each other to Tezcatlipoca than convert to Catholicism. This is simply insane.

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.

While I understand your thought process, I cannot concede that it is so clear cut that the Mother of God would appear in such a manner as to give credence to the institutional Roman church in the way that the story of this apparition would have us believe. Perhaps that means that she did appear and the details of the story have been corrupted, or perhaps the entire thing is a hoax.

It is not "obdurate sectarianism" to argue that the Mother of God could not possibly appear in accordance with the accepted version of this apparition. Again, your argument assumes an indifferentism that is unfounded and unsupported, regardless of the phrases you use to describe the contrary position. Your argument also assumes that the Church has engaged in "obdurate sectarianism" every time it has sorted truth from error -- perhaps that is not your intention, but that result seems inescapable.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:35:47 AM by ErmyCath »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2018, 11:38:28 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2018, 11:51:54 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Perhaps both our arguments sounding "nuts" indicates there's something more (or less) to this story than meets the eye.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2018, 11:55:38 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

+1

If you believe in some kind of Orthodox triumphalism (I do; never been able to shake that postmillennial mumbo I picked up in my wandering years), it's just not out of range of the question to believe that God will legitimately use an imperfect institution to put his people in position to receive his full truth. As it was, the people of Mexico had Christ available to them in the form of the RC, so that is what they got. (And it's worth repeating that at that time the RC was in communion with some of Orthodox...I mean, this was before Trent, even.) Think of it as preparing hearts and minds.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2018, 12:02:48 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Hardly. We see time and time again that omniscient, omnipotent God does in fact have such a "long game." That's basic Christian historiography. We do not ascribe such power and foresight to Satan, however clever he may be.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:03:15 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2018, 12:38:45 PM »
The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
As an inquirer into Orthodoxy, I can only say that
I think my problem with your opinion on the manner - Iconodule - is how definitively certain you are about the Guadalupe vision, and how you are absolutely certain that this vision was indeed from God, claiming to know the intentions of God  in terms of this apparition being allowed to take place, and how you try to justify it with erroneous ideas about canonicity in terms of ecclesiology.

Considering that the Orthodox Church - and ONLY the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ, possessing the fullness of Truth, she is the Light of the world which enlightens it - and without the Orthodox Church, there is darkness.

Now certainly, the Guadalupe apparition has characteristics of a legitimate Orthodox visitiation of the Theotokos - unlike many other "Marian apparitions" in the Roman Catholic Church, like Fatima or La Salette, or the unapproved but extremely popular Medjugorje - bringing people to some kind of relationship with Christ, and leaving an icon for veneration.

Of course, God can work in darkness - this is seen in Acts, with the "Unknown God" in the Pagan temple -
However, how can we make judgments in darkness? Maybe Our Lady is somewhere in that darkness, guiding some souls living in darkness to light - but I can't see anything in this darkness; so how can I definitively say that "Our Lady is there" when I can't see her without the Church?

At best, all we can do is give speculative opinions and not give any absolute, definitive judgments on this, simply because it is without the Church.
Unlike Fatima, La Salette, and Medjugorje - which I can say are heterodox in content, and most likely not from God - the Guadalupe vision seems more legitimate, but nonetheless, this doesn't give one authority to give an absolute judgment , especially when it led people to a church that isn't salvific in the immediate. I can't see Our Lady in the Light, I'm still looking at immediate darkness; maybe one day I will see her in the light working in Mexico - but now I don't.

And to suggest that the Roman Catholic Church was somehow made canonical or "completely-Grace filled" because it was in communion with some other Orthodox Churches is absolute bollocks; by that logic, the Council of Florence and Lyons should've been legitimate councils!

It isn't mere culture that separated the Roman Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church, but from the heresy of Papal Supremacy and the Filioque (understood clearly incorrectly), which only sprouted into so many innovative and heterodox doctrines.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:47:12 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2018, 12:57:10 PM »

At best, all we can do is give speculative opinions and not give any absolute, definitive judgments on this, simply because it is without the Church.

It's not without the Church. The Church in Mexico and Guadalupe has sanctioned this image.  We know that the Orthodox in Guatemala venerate this image and, when they came into Orthodoxy (I trust you agree that's a very good thing- hopefully you'll follow their example) they brought it with them. It was on the basis of an already-formed Christian faith that they chose Orthodoxy, and the Virgen de Guadalupe was there with them. So I choose, on a solid basis, to agree with my brethren in Christ who believe that the image is holy, because I trust God and I do not believe him to be some kind of trickster who is littering the religious landscape with traps. On the contrary, if there is any trickery in him, it is in luring us into his fold.

I'm not going to belabor the point anymore. The faithful in Mexico and Guatemala have made their choice and I trust the opinions of OC.net puritans will continue to be ignored in those countries.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2018, 01:13:29 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Hardly. We see time and time again that omniscient, omnipotent God does in fact have such a "long game." That's basic Christian historiography. We do not ascribe such power and foresight to Satan, however clever he may be.

I disagree with your opinions on this subject because I think it impossible that the Mother of God would appear to lead people to error as part of a long-term strategy of eventually leading a small portion of them to truth. While I agree that God has a "long game," he does not reach his good end by way of bad means. It is possible that this apparition is a hoax and so God has used a man-created bad means to his good purposes, but it is not possible that God would cause the bad means in the first place. That being said, I don't anticipate I'll change your mind so I'll not argue the point further.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:13:43 PM by ErmyCath »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2018, 02:22:32 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

+1

If you believe in some kind of Orthodox triumphalism (I do; never been able to shake that postmillennial mumbo I picked up in my wandering years), it's just not out of range of the question to believe that God will legitimately use an imperfect institution to put his people in position to receive his full truth. As it was, the people of Mexico had Christ available to them in the form of the RC, so that is what they got. (And it's worth repeating that at that time the RC was in communion with some of Orthodox...I mean, this was before Trent, even.) Think of it as preparing hearts and minds.
+1 to both of you.

I want to add that it's not necesarry to broaden a cult of the Guadalupean image across Orthodoxy, but it's not a problem to keep it among Orthodox Mexicans and Mayans.

Such situation - miraclous icon, place - that happened during the Catholic period nad has been embraced by Orthodoxy were happening a lot in Poland, Ukraine...
For example, the greatest Polish Orthodox sanctuary - Holy Mount Grabarka - started during the period of Greek Catholicism. A man had a miraclous vision that everybody that comes to this place, say a prayer, drink water from the nerby spring and leave a cross on the mount, will be saved from the epidemy of cholera. And it was true. Well, close area to this sanctuary (but not exatly the same mount) had been considered as a holy place even in the 13th century, maybe even at Pagan times (but it's a long story).
Similar story is with the Holy Mount Jawor, the miraclous icon of st. Anne in Stary Kornin etc.
Edit: and there are people that because of the visit to these places, that are now Orthodox, and the experience they had there, convert to Orthodoxy.
So, I believe it may be also the case of the Guadalupe icon.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:23:49 PM by Dominika »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2018, 02:44:18 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2018, 03:22:59 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2018, 03:26:33 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.

Do not pretend that there were no contentious debates in the early Church, prior to schism, concerning the extent of what pagan learning could be used for in explaining Christian ideas or living in an increasingly Christian world. If this small amount of debate is enough to rustle your jimmies, then perhaps you should examine your own sensitivity levels.

I appreciated Iconodule's responses, and found them convincing in some measure. I can't say I am willing to embrace the icon myself, but that's a matter of my own personal taste in my book. I am not going to hold it against the the Church in Mexico and Guatemala.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2018, 03:29:15 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.

Um...
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-three-bishops-call-popes-reading-of-amoris-laetitia-alien-to-catho

Um...
http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/pope-francis-says-vatican-iis-liturgical-reform-is-irreversible/

Um...
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=19232.0

Um...


Um...


Um...


Um...

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:34:04 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2018, 03:31:25 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2018, 03:32:59 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
Not about whether the enemy sees to it that icons of Our Lady are spread, no.
We would certainly not consider that specific trick.
Without any irony, I of course agree that my church faces disagreements of another nature.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2018, 03:35:00 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
Meh. Obviously, Orthodox churches in Middle America are using the icon. How is it not relevant?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:35:51 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2018, 03:35:51 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
Not about whether the enemy sees to it that icons of Our Lady are spread, no.
We would certainly not consider that specific trick.

Without any irony, I of course agree that my church faces disagreements of another nature.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vaticans-sexually-suggestive-nativity-has-troubling-ties-to-italys-lgbt-act




Also

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-lgbt-priest-and-vatican-advisor-tweets-immodest-image-of-mary-on-guadal
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:37:30 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2018, 03:39:04 PM »
I'd also say that this is a question about Guadalupe liturgical usage in the Orthodox Church and whether or not the apparitions were legitimate or not; not whether or not it is bad to have icons of the Theotokos.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:39:37 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2018, 03:42:13 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
Meh. Obviously, Orthodox churches in Middle America are using the icon. How is it not relevant?

To suggest that the Roman Catholic Church has no division while Orthodoxy has so much division is ridiculous; by your own standards, it shouldn't be relevant if you consider the state of the Roman Catholic Church today to be "undivided."

If the pushing of Amoris Laetitia is a sign of "undivided unity" by the Pope, then how can an internet thread about a Christian apparition be the "epitome of division?"

Take your "infallible glasses" off and see reality as it is, please. The Papacy has created more division, starting with the Photian Schism all the way to the Great Schism, to the Fourth Crusade, to the Western Schism, to the burning of heretics at the stake, to the Protestant Reformation by Luther, Cramner, and Calvin, to the Old Catholic Schism, to Vatican II and the Sedevacantist / SSPX / Traditionalist movement, to Pope John Paul II and his heterodox ecumenism, to Pope Francis and his moral relativism.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:51:50 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2018, 03:47:04 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
Meh. Obviously, Orthodox churches in Middle America are using the icon. How is it not relevant?

To suggest that the Roman Catholic Church has no division while Orthodoxy has so much division is ridiculous; by your own standards, it shouldn't be relevant if you consider the state of the Roman Catholic Church today to be "undivided."

If the pushing of Amoris Laetitia is a sign of "undivided unity" by the Pope, then how can an internet thread about a Christian apparition be the "epitome of division?"

Take your "infallible glasses" off and see reality as it is, please.
The iron law of OC.net: If nothing else helps, pull the AL one. It will silence nasty Romans and immediately wins any argument.
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2018, 03:48:08 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
Not about whether the enemy sees to it that icons of Our Lady are spread, no.
We would certainly not consider that specific trick.
Without any irony, I of course agree that my church faces disagreements of another nature.

Have you heard of Medjugorje?
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2018, 03:49:02 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
Meh. Obviously, Orthodox churches in Middle America are using the icon. How is it not relevant?

To suggest that the Roman Catholic Church has no division while Orthodoxy has so much division is ridiculous; by your own standards, it shouldn't be relevant if you consider the state of the Roman Catholic Church today to be "undivided."

If the pushing of Amoris Laetitia is a sign of "undivided unity" by the Pope, then how can an internet thread about a Christian apparition be the "epitome of division?"

Take your "infallible glasses" off and see reality as it is, please.
The iron law of OC.net: If nothing else helps, pull the AL one. It will silence nasty Romans and immediately wins any argument.

It wasn't just the AL argument; it was the history of the RCC which I posted in my now edited post as well as my original post and all the divisions the Papacy has caused.

Also, you started this whole argument with your ridiculous and antagonistic comment of "you guys should have stayed with Rome," to which I showed you - not of theology but even just plain old pragmatism - how that is such a ridiculous idea.

And even then, how is the AL argument bad? It's a counterargument to your initial premise that there is "no division in Rome."
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:50:39 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2018, 03:54:20 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
Meh. Obviously, Orthodox churches in Middle America are using the icon. How is it not relevant?

To suggest that the Roman Catholic Church has no division while Orthodoxy has so much division is ridiculous; by your own standards, it shouldn't be relevant if you consider the state of the Roman Catholic Church today to be "undivided."

If the pushing of Amoris Laetitia is a sign of "undivided unity" by the Pope, then how can an internet thread about a Christian apparition be the "epitome of division?"

Take your "infallible glasses" off and see reality as it is, please.
The iron law of OC.net: If nothing else helps, pull the AL one. It will silence nasty Romans and immediately wins any argument.

It wasn't just the AL argument; it was the history of the RCC which I posted in my now edited post as well as my original post and all the divisions the Papacy has caused.

Also, you started this whole argument with your ridiculous and antagonistic comment of "you guys should have stayed with Rome," to which I showed you - not of theology but even just plain old pragmatism - how that is such a ridiculous idea.

And even then, how is the AL argument bad? It's a counterargument to your initial premise that there is "no division in Rome."
Most of the things you mentioned, e.g. the Great Schism, Luther, Calvin, sedevacantism, is a story of people breaking away from Rome. Proving my point exactly.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2018, 04:00:08 PM »
So, forcing down the Donation of Constantine as well as forgeries in order to justify Papal Supremacy, forcing Byzantines to use unleavened bread, Reformation era indulgences with clerical corruption, and forcibly taking away generations upon generations of Western liturgical heritage just to make some low-liturgical Protestants happy, are all the fault of those "dang rebels?"

And if your logic is that "Rome can't be divided as the Body of Christ can't be divided," that's what the Orthodox believe too (that is, the True Body of Christ can't be divided; those who leave the Church or err are outside the Church), so your argument fails in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 04:02:48 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2018, 04:03:13 PM »
So, forcing down the Donation of Constantine as well as forgeries in order to justify Papal Supremacy, forcing Byzantines to use unleavened bread, Reformation era indulgences with clerical corruption, and forcibly taking away generations upon generations of Western liturgical heritage just to make some low-liturgical Protestants happy, are all the fault of those "dang rebels?"
Live, what are you trying to prove? This is no longer about Guadeloupe - if it ever was - but your same doubts again. Let's stay with the topic at hand.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2018, 04:55:00 PM »
Okay.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2018, 06:32:26 PM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

But you really have to wonder when your obdurate sectarianism takes you to a place where you would rather people keep sacrificing each other to Tezcatlipoca than convert to Catholicism. This is simply insane.
A lot of non-Orthodox institutions and practices led to good results. Doesn't necessarily prove that some divine miracle was involved.
 
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2018, 11:25:24 PM »
Western motifs from after the schism have entered the Orthodox Church before (e.g. The Softener of Hearts), but I don't feel that safe adopting one that refers to a specific apparition, rather than just ideas.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2018, 07:02:38 AM »
Hmm. The first thing the Catholic Church looks for is (1) clear evidence of the supernatural - here, it is absolutely manifest, even in the miraculous Tilma, which is an image achieropoieta (not made by human hands) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheiropoieta there are other known instances of such miraculous images throughout Christian history. As for the tilma, https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Our-Blessed-Mother/our-lady-of-guadalupe-she-who-smashes-the-serpent.html "Scientists are baffled how the image was imprinted on the tilma. There are no brush strokes or sketch marks on it. Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, ascertained that Our Lady of Guadalupe’s image does not contain natural, animal, or mineral pigments. The tilma defies natural explanation."

(2) Manifest changes of life and growth in holiness as a result of the heavenly apparitions - this is seen in the end of idolatry and demonic serpent worship and the conversion of several millions already mentioned earlier; neither could this have been brought about by man or by any power other than God.

(3) Finally, the judgment of the local Bishop: neither layman nor priest, nor the bishop of any other territory, can overturn this. Only the Roman Pontiff, on behalf of the universal Church, can; though in practice that rarely happens. "With this, they ushered Our Lady’s ambassador in to see the bishop. Juan Diego knelt down and began to explain all he saw and heard from Our Lady. The bishop listened intently. To prove what he said was true, he untied his tilma and let the roses fall to the ground. Those watching fell to their knees in silent amazement. Miraculously imprinted on the tilma was Our Lady’s perfect image. Recalling their disbelief and mistreatment of the Blessed Mother’s ambassador, the servants were filled with shame.
Bishop Zumarraga tearfully took the tilma from Juan Diego, placed it in his private chapel, and entreated the saint to stay with him for the night in the palace. The next day, with a crowd following behind them, the two went to the site where Our Lady wanted her church built."

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2018, 10:26:09 AM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

You see, there was a spike in jet fuel prices in 1531, rendering plane tickets from Tenochtitlan to Moscow prohibitively expensive for the average Aztec peasant. Really, this question is so bizarre I'm not sure there is any way to seriously answer it.  Why didn't God inscribe the Nicene creed on Moses' tablets? Would've saved a lot of trouble!
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2018, 04:42:11 PM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

You see, there was a spike in jet fuel prices in 1531, rendering plane tickets from Tenochtitlan to Moscow prohibitively expensive for the average Aztec peasant.

Why didn't God inscribe the Nicene creed on Moses' tablets? Would've saved a lot of trouble!
She could have started by telling Diego that the true Church is not the one under the universal and immediate  jurisdiction of the Pope, but the one who has kept the faith of the Creed which doesn’t include the Filioque. No transportation necessary.

As for your Moses analogy, I think there’s a big difference. God revealed to Moses the Jewish Old Covenant, which was the most correct religion of the time. Diego lived post-schism, and Mary was in every position to tell him what the true Church is. Catholicism was not the most correct religion in the 16th century, so that’s where your analogy breaks down.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:49:22 PM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2018, 10:22:30 PM »
I know some Orthodox polemicists love to lean on this crutch when it comes to RC apparitions, but that's one seriously dumb demon if his long con was to get people to pray to the Mother of God and worship Jesus.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2018, 10:30:40 PM »
I disagree with your opinions on this subject because I think it impossible that the Mother of God would appear to lead people to error...
Was it an error that over 8 million people were baptized into a life in Christ Jesus over a decade?  That's like 1.5 person baptized every minute for a decade!
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2018, 11:47:41 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me.

Well, there's a highly influential cult calling itself the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" and claiming that Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. If evil can use the name and image of the Son of God Himself, why not the image of Mary?

Not saying that the V of G is evil. Just questioning this logic.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2018, 06:37:54 AM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

You see, there was a spike in jet fuel prices in 1531, rendering plane tickets from Tenochtitlan to Moscow prohibitively expensive for the average Aztec peasant.

Why didn't God inscribe the Nicene creed on Moses' tablets? Would've saved a lot of trouble!
She could have started by telling Diego that the true Church is not the one under the universal and immediate  jurisdiction of the Pope, but the one who has kept the faith of the Creed which doesn’t include the Filioque. No transportation necessary.

So the setting is 1531 Mexico. No Orthodox within a 5000 mile radius. Many people are still worshiping Tlaloc, Tezcatlipoca, and other gods to whom, not long ago, they would offer human sacrifice on festive occasions. But the most important message the holy Virgin could have delivered to them is about some incomprehensible dispute about a single word, and how a church they will never encounter in their lives had taken the correct position on it. Wow.

Quote
As for your Moses analogy, I think there’s a big difference. God revealed to Moses the Jewish Old Covenant, which was the most correct religion of the time. Diego lived post-schism, and Mary was in every position to tell him what the true Church is. Catholicism was not the most correct religion in the 16th century, so that’s where your analogy breaks down.

1. Judaism that denies the incarnation was never correct at any point in time. The basic Christian approach to the OT is to read the prophecies as veiled allusions to Christ. Why not just pull up the veil to begin with? 2. Diego wasn’t post schism. Parts of Orthodoxy were in communion with Rome until 1724. 3. Catholicism was the most correct religion within a 5000 mile radius of 16th century Mexico.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2018, 10:06:18 AM »
Just because some Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome doesn't make Rome canonical or free from heterodoxy.
Once again, by your logic, Florence and Lyons should have been legitimate.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:06:48 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2018, 10:10:21 AM »
Just because some Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome doesn't make Rome canonical or free from heterodoxy.
Once again, by your logic, Florence and Lyons should have been legitimate.

Your avatar is of a filioquist whom you nevertheless venerate.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2018, 01:11:49 PM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

You see, there was a spike in jet fuel prices in 1531, rendering plane tickets from Tenochtitlan to Moscow prohibitively expensive for the average Aztec peasant. Really, this question is so bizarre I'm not sure there is any way to seriously answer it.  Why didn't God inscribe the Nicene creed on Moses' tablets? Would've saved a lot of trouble!

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2018, 01:28:59 PM »
Just because some Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome doesn't make Rome canonical or free from heterodoxy.
Once again, by your logic, Florence and Lyons should have been legitimate.

No, even then they could still have been robber councils.

And it seems to me that your logic leads to a sort of "Orthodox Feeneyism" where if God isn't miraculously teleporting Russian priests to Mexico, everybody there is screwed.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2018, 01:55:22 PM »
Just because some Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome doesn't make Rome canonical or free from heterodoxy.
Once again, by your logic, Florence and Lyons should have been legitimate.

No, even then they could still have been robber councils.

And it seems to me that your logic leads to a sort of "Orthodox Feeneyism" where if God isn't miraculously teleporting Russian priests to Mexico, everybody there is screwed.

This whole argument is illogical; you think that an apparition outside the Church which is encouraging falsehood to an extent has the potential of being demonic or a complete fabrication. Therefore, you must believe that there cannot be a "Baptism of Blood" or some sort of "Baptism of Desire."

It seems by YOUR LOGIC that you are conjuring up a strawman argument, and I can only assume your intention is to discredit any theological fact which states the Orthodox Church alone possesses the fullness of Truth.

I guess Saint Photios and Saint Mark of Ephesus were "bigoted Feeneyites" who just can't hold hands the Pope singing Kumbayah, communing each other, am-i-rite? Let's all abandon Orthodox doctrine and forget any kind of doctrinal differences that people died over.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2018, 02:53:15 PM »
How is it encouraging falsehood when the RCC was the only game in town in 1531? What should God have done differently, tell them to go back to worshiping Tlaloc? Appear to Tsar Vasily III and inspire him to conquer Mexico?

The Orthodox Church having the fullness of truth doesn't mean that the RCC has zero of it (and also doesn't mean that RCCs and Orthos should just sing Kumbayah).

Either one of us is seriously missing some nuance here or we both are (kind of an ironic statement, I know).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 02:55:31 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2018, 06:15:35 PM »
How is it encouraging falsehood when the RCC was the only game in town in 1531? What should God have done differently, tell them to go back to worshiping Tlaloc? Appear to Tsar Vasily III and inspire him to conquer Mexico?

The Orthodox Church having the fullness of truth doesn't mean that the RCC has zero of it (and also doesn't mean that RCCs and Orthos should just sing Kumbayah).

Either one of us is seriously missing some nuance here or we both are (kind of an ironic statement, I know.

But why should an apparition convert an indigenous people to Orthodoxy, let alone to a heterodox religion? Isn't that the Church's job?

I ask the question: "Why shouldn't the apparition tell them that the Truth is Orthodoxy, or at least wait until Orthodoxy was established in Latin America?"

You're right with Roman Catholicism being one of the closest options.

My biggest problem with Iconodule's musings aren't the fact that it's indeed a possibility that Our Lady appeared, but how unequivocally certain he is about it.

As Ermy pointed out, we don't know if Roman Catholicism even helped them to find Orthodoxy - we have had more success  converting Pagan Alaskans than we have Mexicans. Even now in America, missionary work is much harder because of Christian pluralism; Orthodoxy for the outside viewer just seems to be an ethnic knockoff of Catholicism (which it isn't). Even after telling my Protestant grandmother about it, I met one of her friends who asked me what religion I am. I said I was looking into Orthodoxy, she asked what was it, and my grandmother responded "Their a couple of Churches that broke off of the Roman Catholic Church."

Maybe the conversion to Catholicism was inevitable with Spanish imperialism and colonialism, so Our Lady took some extra steps to make sure the inevitable is less violent overall.

If she appeared again with the same clothes and told people to convert to Orthodoxy 100 years from now, when Orthodoxy is more established there, then I would most likely believe in Guadalupe.

And then there is even the question / possibility if this was just a myth overall.

I think if any Catholic Marian apparition was legitimate, it would be Guadalupe - but considering that so far there has been almost no fruitful conversions to Orthodoxy, and possibly made it way more difficult to interest people in Orthodoxy, all I can do is at best move on from it and say "Who knows?"

If you recall this whole conversation started with Iconodule attacking me after I said it's a possibility this may be demonic - which there might be.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:16:03 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2018, 07:23:54 PM »
Just because some Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome doesn't make Rome canonical or free from heterodoxy.
Once again, by your logic, Florence and Lyons should have been legitimate.

Your avatar is of a filioquist whom you nevertheless venerate.

That fact is debatable because the problem of Filioque is twofold.

1. The fact that Filioque can be understood in a heterodox manner (as Thomas Aquinas describes; as the Son being a cause of the Spirit; which they justify because they claim the Holy Spirit proceeds out of the Essence and not from the Father, or the Holy Spirit being the creation of a Divine Love from the Father and the Son)
2. The fact that the Roman Church can't alone change the Nicene Creed, let alone demanding the entire Church to obey their decision.

See Saint Mark of Ephesus,

https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/saint-mark-of-ephesus-on-false-union-and-the-filioque/

Saint Gregory the Great only used the Filioque once at the end of Book 2 of his dialogues.

So, a couple of things.

First, the idea of Filioque - as understood to be the economic sending of the Holy Spirit from the Father to the Son - is not incorrect; Saint Maximus said that the Filioque as a theological concept is okay as long as the theology is correct.

"With regard to the first matter (the Filioque), they (the Romans) have produced the unanimous documentary evidence of the Latin fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the sacred commentary he composed on the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit— they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession; but [they use this expression] in order to manifest the Spirit’s coming-forth (προϊέναι) through him and, in this way, to make clear the unity and identity of the essence….
One should also keep in mind that they cannot express their meaning in a language and idiom that are foreign to them as precisely as they can in their own mother-tongue, any more than we can do."

As such, reading the Filioque outside of the Creed in a theologically correct manner - in my opinion - I would say is not erroneous.

Even then, two popes after Saint Gregory - Pope Leo III and Pope John VIII - both condemned the Filioque in the Creed as departing from the Faith; it makes little sense that 100 years before Saint Gregory professed a belief in a heretical idea of procession.

Second, even if Saint Gregory the Great did teach the Filioque once in one of his books in an erroneous manner - so what?

The Church Fathers made mistakes.

Saint Ambrose said that if you have a Baptism with One of the Persons of the Trinity named, you have a valid Baptism, because when you name One Person of the Trinity, you are naming the Same God. So, according to Him, if you just baptize "in the name of Jesus Christ" in the Church, the Baptism will be valid. However, this is a completely egregious statement from the Orthodox view in terms of Church discipline.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm

Saint Gregory the Great's writings about Saint John the Faster and the Universal Bishop controversy, his Dialogues, and his other epistles are way more of a treasure for us .
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 07:25:16 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2018, 10:06:29 PM »
How is it encouraging falsehood when the RCC was the only game in town in 1531? What should God have done differently, tell them to go back to worshiping Tlaloc? Appear to Tsar Vasily III and inspire him to conquer Mexico?

The Orthodox Church having the fullness of truth doesn't mean that the RCC has zero of it (and also doesn't mean that RCCs and Orthos should just sing Kumbayah).

Either one of us is seriously missing some nuance here or we both are (kind of an ironic statement, I know.

But why should an apparition convert an indigenous people to Orthodoxy, let alone to a heterodox religion? Isn't that the Church's job?

You're right that apparitions are not necessary, but it's something with incredible staying power amongst the Mexican people and if it helps bring them to Christ and is not obviously heretical, I want to ere on the side of approval. Unless one is of the opinion that RCs are devil worshipers, I think it's pretty clear that Guadalupe has brought much good into the world.

I ask the question: "Why shouldn't the apparition tell them that the Truth is Orthodoxy, or at least wait until Orthodoxy was established in Latin America?"

You're right with Roman Catholicism being one of the closest options.

Tell them the truth is Orthodoxy then? That makes no sense for the reasons Iconodule already enumerated.

Wait until now? Maybe, but then again there's a lot of things God has done that confuse me. I'm trying to be pragmatic and deal with this important spiritual fact as it is.

My biggest problem with Iconodule's musings aren't the fact that it's indeed a possibility that Our Lady appeared, but how unequivocally certain he is about it.

Fair enough.

As Ermy pointed out, we don't know if Roman Catholicism even helped them to find Orthodoxy - we have had more success  converting Pagan Alaskans than we have Mexicans. Even now in America, missionary work is much harder because of Christian pluralism; Orthodoxy for the outside viewer just seems to be an ethnic knockoff of Catholicism (which it isn't). Even after telling my Protestant grandmother about it, I met one of her friends who asked me what religion I am. I said I was looking into Orthodoxy, she asked what was it, and my grandmother responded "Their a couple of Churches that broke off of the Roman Catholic Church."

It may not have helped them find Orthodoxy, but it helped them find Christ over against a background of an extremely harmful form of paganism and Guadalupe was a big factor there.

Also, AFAICT only about 1/4 of Alaska Natives are Orthodox (and even then it was always strongest in the southern tribes). The rest got carved up by a coalition of Protestant denoms following US Statehood.

Maybe the conversion to Catholicism was inevitable with Spanish imperialism and colonialism, so Our Lady took some extra steps to make sure the inevitable is less violent overall.

I could buy that, yeah.

If she appeared again with the same clothes and told people to convert to Orthodoxy 100 years from now, when Orthodoxy is more established there, then I would most likely believe in Guadalupe.

Given how popular Guadalupe seems to be among Mexican Orthodox, in an indirect way maybe she has.

And then there is even the question / possibility if this was just a myth overall.

I think if any Catholic Marian apparition was legitimate, it would be Guadalupe - but considering that so far there has been almost no fruitful conversions to Orthodoxy, and possibly made it way more difficult to interest people in Orthodoxy, all I can do is at best move on from it and say "Who knows?"

If you recall this whole conversation started with Iconodule attacking me after I said it's a possibility this may be demonic - which there might be.

I think the "it's demonic" thing should be a very last resort. Even something like Mary Ann "the Virgin told me to board a UFO to get away from V II" Van Hoof is probably better off explained as sincere but nuts. Guadalupe isn't even in the same ballpark.
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2018, 10:02:20 AM »

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
If the Mother of God really appeared in Guadalupe, then why didn't she reveal the Orthodox Church to Juan Diego?

You see, there was a spike in jet fuel prices in 1531, rendering plane tickets from Tenochtitlan to Moscow prohibitively expensive for the average Aztec peasant.

Why didn't God inscribe the Nicene creed on Moses' tablets? Would've saved a lot of trouble!
She could have started by telling Diego that the true Church is not the one under the universal and immediate  jurisdiction of the Pope, but the one who has kept the faith of the Creed which doesn’t include the Filioque. No transportation necessary.

So the setting is 1531 Mexico. No Orthodox within a 5000 mile radius. Many people are still worshiping Tlaloc, Tezcatlipoca, and other gods to whom, not long ago, they would offer human sacrifice on festive occasions. But the most important message the holy Virgin could have delivered to them is about some incomprehensible dispute about a single word, and how a church they will never encounter in their lives had taken the correct position on it. Wow.

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As for your Moses analogy, I think there’s a big difference. God revealed to Moses the Jewish Old Covenant, which was the most correct religion of the time. Diego lived post-schism, and Mary was in every position to tell him what the true Church is. Catholicism was not the most correct religion in the 16th century, so that’s where your analogy breaks down.

1. Judaism that denies the incarnation was never correct at any point in time. The basic Christian approach to the OT is to read the prophecies as veiled allusions to Christ. Why not just pull up the veil to begin with? 2. Diego wasn’t post schism. Parts of Orthodoxy were in communion with Rome until 1724. 3. Catholicism was the most correct religion within a 5000 mile radius of 16th century Mexico.
I disagree with point 2, but I digress. Your points are fair, but let me just tell you where I'm coming from with this:

If the Orthodox worldview is true, then I cannot accept the idea that our Mother would lie to Juan Diego that the RCC is the true Church of Christ. I also cannot conceive the idea that she would unintentionally mislead Diego and most people after him into RCism rather than Orthodoxy, as that would demonstrate a huge incompetence on her part. (Being with God, I'm sure she had every power and will to reveal the fullness of faith to the Natives.) Finally, I cannot see how one can subscribe to the traditional narrative of OLoG, and still maintain that the Orthodox Church is the true Church, and not the RCC. I think that the demonic theory is untenable for reasons already explained, but I see no reason not to believe that the entire thing is just a legend.

Perhaps some reasonable ways around this is that Mary did try to tell Diego to hold to the Orthodox faith, but he either didn't listen or misunderstood her. Perhaps she knew that Diego wasn't ready to hear the fullness of truth, and that she accommodated to his weakness and only told him what was most important for him to hear at the time. But both alternatives are still a break from the traditional narrative of the miracle, and I'm not sure which one you subscribe too.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:05:45 AM by byhisgrace »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2018, 10:16:29 AM »
So the setting is 1531 Mexico. No Orthodox within a 5000 mile radius. Many people are still worshiping Tlaloc, Tezcatlipoca, and other gods to whom, not long ago, they would offer human sacrifice on festive occasions. But the most important message the holy Virgin could have delivered to them is about some incomprehensible dispute about a single word, and how a church they will never encounter in their lives had taken the correct position on it. Wow.

It was much more than a "single word" - it was the Papacy claiming Papal Supremacy over the entire Church.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:18:30 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2018, 10:33:07 AM »
What the Virgin is alleged to have said at Guadalupe is actually very little, and there's not anything that seems uniquely Roman Catholic apart from directing Juan Diego to go to the Bishop of Mexico, who of course was RC, about building a temple. And even that is not a particular endorsement of RC doctrine, just reality – Juan Diego would need the permission and support of the Christian leader in the area to build such a temple.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2018, 10:38:53 AM »
What the Virgin is alleged to have said at Guadalupe is actually very little, and there's not anything that seems uniquely Roman Catholic apart from directing Juan Diego to go to the Bishop of Mexico, who of course was RC, about building a temple. And even that is not a particular endorsement of RC doctrine, just reality – Juan Diego would need the permission and support of the Christian leader in the area to build such a temple.
Fair enough.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2018, 10:43:42 AM »
Do you think it would have been better for the people in Mexico if there would have been no such apparition?
Would it have made a large difference? Who knows?

I would recommend extreme caution when it comes to Marian apparitions in general:
The depositum fidei is complete without any Marian apparitions whatsoever, one can very well do without.
So it is perfectly fine if one personally decides they cannot do anything with Fatima, Guadalupe, Lourdes or whatnot.
Even if it officially permitted (!) to believe in some like Fatima, they need not be important at all.

Of course, if those apparitions lead people to come to Christ, it cannot be a really bad thing.
In that single respect, I would note even altogether condemn Medjugorje - with all the superstition and outgrowth it produces.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
If the Orthodox worldview is true, then I cannot accept the idea that our Mother would lie to Juan Diego that the RCC is the true Church of Christ.

[snip]


Thank you for your post -- your formulated precisely what I was thinking.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
No its Roman Catholic and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

The OCA Cathedral in Mexico City does contain the Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe..... it this means anything

Offline LBK

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2018, 05:59:20 PM »
No its Roman Catholic and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

The OCA Cathedral in Mexico City does contain the Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe..... it this means anything

The New Skete monastery liturgically commemorates Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi, has "icons" of them in its church, and sells prints of "icons" in its bookstore. Still doesn't make it right.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?