Author Topic: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?  (Read 1508 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« on: January 08, 2018, 07:05:01 PM »
Here's a question: without getting into the specifics of Catholic Marian apparitions, it seems that the Guadalupe image has played a significant role in Latin America, such that even Orthodox Churches have used it in their iconography - even using it as an "Incarnation" icon.

I know that it may be in part subjective, but is the Guadalupe painting a valid icon in its art?

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:05:41 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 07:09:05 PM »
No its Roman Catholic and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:09:47 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:35:29 PM »
I believe we have enough obviously Orthodox Marian art to go on endless and pointless discussions about publicly venerating particular stuff from outside the Church.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:51 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 07:48:02 PM »
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 08:00:10 PM »
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.

Jackson02 and RaphaCam's posts are completely correct.

The presence of this image in an Orthodox church is an error, just as "icons" of St Francis of Assisi at New Skete are wrong. Neither the Guadalupe Madonna nor Francis were or are part of Orthodox tradition, and to attempt to shoehorn them into the Church in the name of cultural relevance is a grave mistake.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 08:28:57 PM »
But from the artwork style in of itself, and if this icon were detached from the events of Our Lady of Guadalupe's apparition to Juan Diego (whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction), would it be acceptable from an iconographic point of view?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 08:29:14 PM »
There's nothing wrong with this holy icon. Raise it proudly.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 08:33:19 PM »
But from the artwork style in of itself, and if this icon were detached from the events of Our Lady of Guadalupe's apparition to Juan Diego (whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction), would it be acceptable from an iconographic point of view?

The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 08:37:19 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:41:02 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline biro

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 08:43:05 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 08:46:46 PM »
Francis of Assisi did not paint or commission the San Damiano cross, and there is little if anything that is doctrinally objectionable in what is depicted on it. OTOH, if Juan Diego had not seen the vision, there would not be an Our Lady of Guadalupe for his church to venerate.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 08:50:19 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:51:59 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 08:58:20 PM »
Rob Schneider is derp de derp derp derp, and coming this Summer, he will derp de derp derp derp derp. He will soon find out derp de derp de derp derp derp derp derp! Derp derp derp derp derp!

In theaters June 2018, Derp de Derp!

You realize you're laughing at yourself, because it's a thread you started?

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My bad.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:03:45 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 09:22:03 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 09:27:28 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.

This apparition is not, and has never been, part of Orthodox tradition, either as an icon, or, just as importantly, in liturgical commemoration. Just as there is no Orthodox acceptance of Fatima or Medjugorje.  Let the Roman Catholics venerate it, by all means. It's their tradition, it can never be ours.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:29:18 PM by LBK »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 09:57:18 PM »
The Juan Diego story is central to why the image is venerated by Roman Catholics. So the answer is no, it cannot be acceptable for Orthodox veneration.
The Mother of God is central to the veneration of this image made not by human hands by Catholics, not St. Juan Diego.

This apparition is not, and has never been, part of Orthodox tradition, either as an icon, or, just as importantly, in liturgical commemoration. Just as there is no Orthodox acceptance of Fatima or Medjugorje.  Let the Roman Catholics venerate it, by all means. It's their tradition, it can never be ours.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 10:07:57 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 10:20:19 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one. Catholics did a lot of things before 1724, and yet we have not willy nilly adopted all of those other traditions. I would just as soon have icons painted like a 1930's Disney cartoon than include something so far out of mainstream Orthodoxy.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 10:21:27 PM »
Guadalupe, Wow! What a signal mark of Heaven's favor. Had it been in the first Christian millenium, all Christians would have revered and venerated the Virgin who there crushed infanticide, heathen serpent worship, ritual child-killing and much else besides. "He opened the tilma to show them and, to everyone's astonishment, the Image of Our Lady appeared on it. The Bishop then built the church as Our Lady had requested and ten million natives were converted and baptized to the one, true faith within the next 10 years. Human sacrifice ended in Mexico forever. Our Lady of Guadalupe, which means Crusher of the serpent's head, brought the light of the true faith, crushed the false gods of Mexico, and established an era of peace." https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-amazing-truth-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe.html

St. Juan Diego learnt the serpent gods were false and that the Virgin Mary was "the Virgin Mother of the true God for Whom we must live." A fulfilment of the ancient prophesy, "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Gen 3:15). Untold millions came into the Church in droves; hardly had the greatest of Apostles ever been able to do what the Queen of the Apostles did with such ease in 10 years; when the sacred icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe was carried into Lepanto, as Catholic Europe sought the intercession of the Mother of God, the Islamist invasion there was driven back. http://catholicexchange.com/lepanto-the-day-our-lady-saved-christendom Everywhere, the veneration of Our Lady of Guadulupe brought the richest fruits and the greatest blessings.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:24:17 PM by Xavier »

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2018, 10:26:49 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.
What parts remained in communion? It sounds like the unia before it was the unia.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:27:07 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2018, 10:31:29 PM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 10:37:55 PM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 12:12:01 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Those churches were the Melkites which were thinking of reuniting with the Roman Catholic Church anyway. This doesn't make the Guadalupe image a true icon.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 01:02:58 AM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
I'll admit there is truth to your post.  The trust for bishops & theologians (mostly) I have unlearned. 


Time and again, over many threads and countless posts, folks here have tried to show you the error of your ways regarding icons, drawing from all areas of Orthodox tradition...You persist in using yourself as the ultimate authority on this matter.

;)
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 01:12:10 AM »
(whether real, really demonic, or complete fiction)

I know some Orthodox polemicists love to lean on this crutch when it comes to RC apparitions, but that's one seriously dumb demon if his long con was to get people to pray to the Mother of God and worship Jesus.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 03:27:22 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 04:03:45 AM »

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

Bishops are not infallible.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
I'll admit there is truth to your post.  The trust for bishops & theologians (mostly) I have unlearned. 


Time and again, over many threads and countless posts, folks here have tried to show you the error of your ways regarding icons, drawing from all areas of Orthodox tradition...You persist in using yourself as the ultimate authority on this matter.

;)

Nice try.  ::)

How many Orthodox bishops support the veneration of the Guadalupe image, not just by allowing the image into churches, but by liturgical veneration as well? What is the feast day for it? What hymns to the image are read, chanted and sung? How do these bishops justify the liturgical extolling of the vision of a man who was never part of the Orthodox Church? Etc.

I stand fully by my earlier posts.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 06:34:50 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?

On the basis that the Mother of God appeared to an indigenous man and helped bring the light of Christ to a place where demonic idolatry was rampant.

So the question is begged, on what basis is it excluded?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2018, 09:02:41 AM »
Parts of the Orthodox Church were in communion with Rome up through 1724 so Saint Juan Diego is pre-schism.

Even so, including this icon in veneration is a big stretch. On what basis would you include it? You're gonna have to find a bigger bridge to build on this one.

:Shrug: It's a fait accompli. The bishops in Mexico/ Guatemala are fine with it.

That does not answer the original inquiry. I am not asking what the status quo is for the bishops of Mexico and Guatemala. I am asking on what basis is it included?

On the basis that the Mother of God appeared to an indigenous man and helped bring the light of Christ to a place where demonic idolatry was rampant.

So the question is begged, on what basis is it excluded?

Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:03:57 AM by ErmyCath »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2018, 10:14:44 AM »
Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).

I'll be honest, there was a time I thought this way too. But you really have to wonder when your obdurate sectarianism takes you to a place where you would rather people keep sacrificing each other to Tezcatlipoca than convert to Catholicism. This is simply insane.

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2018, 11:29:49 AM »
Your argument seems to rest on the foundation that bringing indigenous peoples to Roman Catholicism is a good in itself that is at least approximately equal to bringing indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy.

We don’t know, for example, if the flourishing of Roman Catholicism in Mexico and Central America as a result of this apparition and devotion actually dissuaded or impaired Orthodox missionary work that might have otherwise been fruitful.

So the question is why it would be appropriate to venerate an icon based on an event that didn’t lead people to the Church, but instead led them to something that approximates the Church, potentially keeping generations of people in error. Seems an inappropriate thing to venerate unless you accept the premise that Roman Catholicism is just as good as Orthodoxy (a premise that many would reject, including many saints who are properly venerated in their own icons — not the least among them being the saint depicted in my avatar).

I'll be honest, there was a time I thought this way too. But you really have to wonder when your obdurate sectarianism takes you to a place where you would rather people keep sacrificing each other to Tezcatlipoca than convert to Catholicism. This is simply insane.

The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.

While I understand your thought process, I cannot concede that it is so clear cut that the Mother of God would appear in such a manner as to give credence to the institutional Roman church in the way that the story of this apparition would have us believe. Perhaps that means that she did appear and the details of the story have been corrupted, or perhaps the entire thing is a hoax.

It is not "obdurate sectarianism" to argue that the Mother of God could not possibly appear in accordance with the accepted version of this apparition. Again, your argument assumes an indifferentism that is unfounded and unsupported, regardless of the phrases you use to describe the contrary position. Your argument also assumes that the Church has engaged in "obdurate sectarianism" every time it has sorted truth from error -- perhaps that is not your intention, but that result seems inescapable.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:35:47 AM by ErmyCath »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2018, 11:38:28 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2018, 11:51:54 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Perhaps both our arguments sounding "nuts" indicates there's something more (or less) to this story than meets the eye.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2018, 11:55:38 AM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

+1

If you believe in some kind of Orthodox triumphalism (I do; never been able to shake that postmillennial mumbo I picked up in my wandering years), it's just not out of range of the question to believe that God will legitimately use an imperfect institution to put his people in position to receive his full truth. As it was, the people of Mexico had Christ available to them in the form of the RC, so that is what they got. (And it's worth repeating that at that time the RC was in communion with some of Orthodox...I mean, this was before Trent, even.) Think of it as preparing hearts and minds.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2018, 12:02:48 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Hardly. We see time and time again that omniscient, omnipotent God does in fact have such a "long game." That's basic Christian historiography. We do not ascribe such power and foresight to Satan, however clever he may be.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:03:15 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2018, 12:38:45 PM »
The Mother of God appeared in Mexico, and thank God for it.
As an inquirer into Orthodoxy, I can only say that
I think my problem with your opinion on the manner - Iconodule - is how definitively certain you are about the Guadalupe vision, and how you are absolutely certain that this vision was indeed from God, claiming to know the intentions of God  in terms of this apparition being allowed to take place, and how you try to justify it with erroneous ideas about canonicity in terms of ecclesiology.

Considering that the Orthodox Church - and ONLY the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ, possessing the fullness of Truth, she is the Light of the world which enlightens it - and without the Orthodox Church, there is darkness.

Now certainly, the Guadalupe apparition has characteristics of a legitimate Orthodox visitiation of the Theotokos - unlike many other "Marian apparitions" in the Roman Catholic Church, like Fatima or La Salette, or the unapproved but extremely popular Medjugorje - bringing people to some kind of relationship with Christ, and leaving an icon for veneration.

Of course, God can work in darkness - this is seen in Acts, with the "Unknown God" in the Pagan temple -
However, how can we make judgments in darkness? Maybe Our Lady is somewhere in that darkness, guiding some souls living in darkness to light - but I can't see anything in this darkness; so how can I definitively say that "Our Lady is there" when I can't see her without the Church?

At best, all we can do is give speculative opinions and not give any absolute, definitive judgments on this, simply because it is without the Church.
Unlike Fatima, La Salette, and Medjugorje - which I can say are heterodox in content, and most likely not from God - the Guadalupe vision seems more legitimate, but nonetheless, this doesn't give one authority to give an absolute judgment , especially when it led people to a church that isn't salvific in the immediate. I can't see Our Lady in the Light, I'm still looking at immediate darkness; maybe one day I will see her in the light working in Mexico - but now I don't.

And to suggest that the Roman Catholic Church was somehow made canonical or "completely-Grace filled" because it was in communion with some other Orthodox Churches is absolute bollocks; by that logic, the Council of Florence and Lyons should've been legitimate councils!

It isn't mere culture that separated the Roman Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church, but from the heresy of Papal Supremacy and the Filioque (understood clearly incorrectly), which only sprouted into so many innovative and heterodox doctrines.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:47:12 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2018, 12:57:10 PM »

At best, all we can do is give speculative opinions and not give any absolute, definitive judgments on this, simply because it is without the Church.

It's not without the Church. The Church in Mexico and Guadalupe has sanctioned this image.  We know that the Orthodox in Guatemala venerate this image and, when they came into Orthodoxy (I trust you agree that's a very good thing- hopefully you'll follow their example) they brought it with them. It was on the basis of an already-formed Christian faith that they chose Orthodoxy, and the Virgen de Guadalupe was there with them. So I choose, on a solid basis, to agree with my brethren in Christ who believe that the image is holy, because I trust God and I do not believe him to be some kind of trickster who is littering the religious landscape with traps. On the contrary, if there is any trickery in him, it is in luring us into his fold.

I'm not going to belabor the point anymore. The faithful in Mexico and Guatemala have made their choice and I trust the opinions of OC.net puritans will continue to be ignored in those countries.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2018, 01:13:29 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

I'm not convinced that the caricature of my argument that you present is more "nuts" than your argument that the Mother of God would appear to lead pagan people to Roman Catholicism as part of a long game wherein ultimately Guatemalan Mayans would convert en masse to Orthodoxy.

Hardly. We see time and time again that omniscient, omnipotent God does in fact have such a "long game." That's basic Christian historiography. We do not ascribe such power and foresight to Satan, however clever he may be.

I disagree with your opinions on this subject because I think it impossible that the Mother of God would appear to lead people to error as part of a long-term strategy of eventually leading a small portion of them to truth. While I agree that God has a "long game," he does not reach his good end by way of bad means. It is possible that this apparition is a hoax and so God has used a man-created bad means to his good purposes, but it is not possible that God would cause the bad means in the first place. That being said, I don't anticipate I'll change your mind so I'll not argue the point further.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:13:43 PM by ErmyCath »
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2018, 02:22:32 PM »
No, in no place does my argument assume indifferentism. I can and do believe that Orthodoxy is the fullness of truth, while Catholicism has serious defects, while also acknowledging that the latter is not completely worthless or getting paranoid about possible contamination by RC cooties if I recognize some providential or grace-filled events in the RC fold. What your argument seems to assume is this: That in 1531 Satan hatched a brilliant scheme to fake an apparition of the Mother of God in Mexico so that, 400+ years later, Orthodox missionaries trickling into the region might have a hard time winning converts. It's nuts. And what's more, it's clearly wrong as one of the biggest mass conversions in modern Orthodoxy happened among Guatemalan Maya who brought Our Lady of Guadalupe with them.

+1

If you believe in some kind of Orthodox triumphalism (I do; never been able to shake that postmillennial mumbo I picked up in my wandering years), it's just not out of range of the question to believe that God will legitimately use an imperfect institution to put his people in position to receive his full truth. As it was, the people of Mexico had Christ available to them in the form of the RC, so that is what they got. (And it's worth repeating that at that time the RC was in communion with some of Orthodox...I mean, this was before Trent, even.) Think of it as preparing hearts and minds.
+1 to both of you.

I want to add that it's not necesarry to broaden a cult of the Guadalupean image across Orthodoxy, but it's not a problem to keep it among Orthodox Mexicans and Mayans.

Such situation - miraclous icon, place - that happened during the Catholic period nad has been embraced by Orthodoxy were happening a lot in Poland, Ukraine...
For example, the greatest Polish Orthodox sanctuary - Holy Mount Grabarka - started during the period of Greek Catholicism. A man had a miraclous vision that everybody that comes to this place, say a prayer, drink water from the nerby spring and leave a cross on the mount, will be saved from the epidemy of cholera. And it was true. Well, close area to this sanctuary (but not exatly the same mount) had been considered as a holy place even in the 13th century, maybe even at Pagan times (but it's a long story).
Similar story is with the Holy Mount Jawor, the miraclous icon of st. Anne in Stary Kornin etc.
Edit: and there are people that because of the visit to these places, that are now Orthodox, and the experience they had there, convert to Orthodoxy.
So, I believe it may be also the case of the Guadalupe icon.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:23:49 PM by Dominika »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2018, 02:44:18 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2018, 03:22:59 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2018, 03:26:33 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.

Do not pretend that there were no contentious debates in the early Church, prior to schism, concerning the extent of what pagan learning could be used for in explaining Christian ideas or living in an increasingly Christian world. If this small amount of debate is enough to rustle your jimmies, then perhaps you should examine your own sensitivity levels.

I appreciated Iconodule's responses, and found them convincing in some measure. I can't say I am willing to embrace the icon myself, but that's a matter of my own personal taste in my book. I am not going to hold it against the the Church in Mexico and Guatemala.
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2018, 03:29:15 PM »
What does the icon display? Is it not Mary, the Sancta Dei Genetrix, or Mother of God? Do you truly believe that an evil force would use an image of her to lead people astray? Sounds like completely crazy to me. Anyway, my (of course biased) takeaway from this thread: Splitting apart from Rome just leads to ever more division and disagreements.

Um...
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-three-bishops-call-popes-reading-of-amoris-laetitia-alien-to-catho

Um...
http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/pope-francis-says-vatican-iis-liturgical-reform-is-irreversible/

Um...
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=19232.0

Um...


Um...


Um...


Um...

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 03:34:04 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2018, 03:31:25 PM »
The "infallible 'Vicar of Christ'" is trying to force adulterous men and women to communion - but this surely isn't divisive, correct?


Here there is debate about a Roman Catholic apparition that isn't relevant to Orthodoxy - OH BOY! Those Orthodox sure are creating problems amongst each other, right?
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Re: Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2018, 03:32:59 PM »
Thankfully there are no serious divisions or disagreements in Rome’s camp.
Not about whether the enemy sees to it that icons of Our Lady are spread, no.
We would certainly not consider that specific trick.
Without any irony, I of course agree that my church faces disagreements of another nature.
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