Author Topic: The Last Jedi  (Read 2554 times)

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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2018, 05:24:07 AM »
I haven’t seen the Last Jedi, nor will I ever.  The Force Awakens killed Star Wars for me.

Let me explain.  For guys like me who were young boys in the late 70’s-early 80’s, Star Wars were more than just movies, they were mythology.  They were morality plays that introduced kids like me who weren't raised with much religion, to the struggle of good vs evil, the meaning of friendship, of sacrifice, and to a wonder at the vastness of the universe, and even to a sense of some sort of spirituality.  To us Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were what Robin Hood or King Arthur were to earlier generations: timeless heroes.  Along with Princess Leia and Darth Vader, in the 70’s they also all became huge pop culture icons, like on the same level as Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, or Charlie Chaplin.  The creators of these new movies don’t seem to understand that fully.  They don't seem to get that they're dealing with modern mythology and characters that people grew up with.  They seem to be bringing these timeless characters back just to kill them off, and without even much fanfare.  Seeing Han Solo get stabbed through the gut and thrown off a bridge was like watching a childhood hero like Robin Hood or Buck Rogers or John Wayne meet their demise, and in a not very dignified manner to top it off.  It's Han Solo!  And now it's Luke Skywalker!  That's like killing off Indiana Jones or Peter Pan or Sherlock Holmes!  And that’s exactly why George Lucas never wanted the main characters killed in the original movies.  They were meant to be like modern fairy tales and in interviews he has said he wanted the audience at the end to feel spiritually uplifted and a real sense of completion and satisfaction like at the end of a fairy tale.

George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress, whereas from what I’ve heard they seem to be making up these storylines as they go from director to director like a relay race.  That’s fine for ordinary popcorn movies, but this was supposed to be Star Wars!  It was meant to be one long story originally spanning 6 movies, and possibly 9.  In my opinion, they should’ve just started their own new separate trilogy and created these new characters, but left alone the old classic characters that the whole world knew and loved as the timeless icons that they were.  These movies may have lightsabers, talk of the Force, etc, but they don't have the heart or the soul of the earlier movies because George Lucas is not involved.  Disney is using one man's life's work, his labor of love, and milking it for every cent they can squeeze out.  It’s a total shame. 

Anyway, I’m sure I’ll get shot down for my comments, but those are my feelings on it and it felt cathartic for me to express it
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:25:05 AM by PorphyriosK »

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2018, 06:50:22 AM »
George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress

No, he didn't. He didn't even expect the first one to have a sequel at all. He was very much making it up as he went along, and the entire original trilogy is riddled with plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through. The fact that we can still ignore them and enjoy the ride is proof of first-rate escapism, which is why Star Wars will always be bigger than the sum of its parts.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2018, 07:04:04 AM »
No, there is a marked difference between the Lucas films and the space-opera-by-committee they’re feeding us now. Even the prequels, bad as they are, have a certain Ed Wood charm to them. Porphyrios, you’re definitely not missing anything. As far as mindless spectacles go, the recent batch of Marvel movies is much more successful.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 07:05:05 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2018, 07:08:42 AM »
George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress

No, he didn't. He didn't even expect the first one to have a sequel at all. He was very much making it up as he went along, and the entire original trilogy is riddled with plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through. The fact that we can still ignore them and enjoy the ride is proof of first-rate escapism, which is why Star Wars will always be bigger than the sum of its parts.

Actually, while it's true he didn't know if he'd ever get the opportunity to make more than one movie, he did have the entire basic story arc that he wanted to tell already in his head from the beginning, including the prequel story.  He's talked about it in interviews.  The scripts were definitely written as they went, but the basic plot of where it all was going was already there.

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2018, 07:11:36 AM »
George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress

No, he didn't. He didn't even expect the first one to have a sequel at all. He was very much making it up as he went along, and the entire original trilogy is riddled with plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through. The fact that we can still ignore them and enjoy the ride is proof of first-rate escapism, which is why Star Wars will always be bigger than the sum of its parts.

Actually, while it's true he didn't know if he'd ever get the opportunity to make more than one movie, he did have the entire basic story arc that he wanted to tell already in his head from the beginning, including the prequel story.  He's talked about it in interviews.  The scripts were definitely written as they went, but the basic plot of where it all was going was already there.

Lucas actually is ultra-evasive when asked about said plotholes, because he wants to keep up the illusion of having it together. But sure, if that's what you think.

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2018, 07:14:53 AM »
Plot holes are seldom what makes a movie bad.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2018, 07:23:30 AM »
George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress

No, he didn't. He didn't even expect the first one to have a sequel at all. He was very much making it up as he went along, and the entire original trilogy is riddled with plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through. The fact that we can still ignore them and enjoy the ride is proof of first-rate escapism, which is why Star Wars will always be bigger than the sum of its parts.

Actually, while it's true he didn't know if he'd ever get the opportunity to make more than one movie, he did have the entire basic story arc that he wanted to tell already in his head from the beginning, including the prequel story.  He's talked about it in interviews.  The scripts were definitely written as they went, but the basic plot of where it all was going was already there.

Lucas actually is ultra-evasive when asked about said plotholes, because he wants to keep up the illusion of having it together. But sure, if that's what you think.



Sure, of course they're not perfect films by any means.  Not even close, and I'm not claiming that they are.  But they had a heart and soul to them that is completely absent from the modern incarnation.  They didn't even have a funeral for Han for pete's sake.  They've already killed Luke in the second act.  It's like they're just cutting and pasting neat visual things they liked about Star Wars into their new movies with no attention to bringing these relationships between the characters to a satisfying end.  Han, Luke, and Leia never even got to fully reunite in a scene together.  They're not even trying.

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2018, 07:27:21 AM »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2018, 07:34:01 AM »
George Lucas in his other trilogies also had the complete story already in his mind and knew how they would progress

No, he didn't. He didn't even expect the first one to have a sequel at all. He was very much making it up as he went along, and the entire original trilogy is riddled with plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through. The fact that we can still ignore them and enjoy the ride is proof of first-rate escapism, which is why Star Wars will always be bigger than the sum of its parts.

Actually, while it's true he didn't know if he'd ever get the opportunity to make more than one movie, he did have the entire basic story arc that he wanted to tell already in his head from the beginning, including the prequel story.  He's talked about it in interviews.  The scripts were definitely written as they went, but the basic plot of where it all was going was already there.

Lucas actually is ultra-evasive when asked about said plotholes, because he wants to keep up the illusion of having it together. But sure, if that's what you think.



Sure, of course they're not perfect films by any means.  Not even close, and I'm not claiming that they are.  But they had a heart and soul to them that is completely absent from the modern incarnation.  They didn't even have a funeral for Han for pete's sake.  They've already killed Luke in the second act.  It's like they're just cutting and pasting neat visual things they liked about Star Wars into their new movies with no attention to bringing these relationships between the characters to a satisfying end.  Han, Luke, and Leia never even got to fully reunite in a scene together.  They're not even trying.

They killed Luke in the second act because the third act was supposed to be Leia's. It's tragic that we'll never see how the sequel trilogy was originally projected, but Star Wars has become a lot bigger than the Skywalkers.

Honestly, the whole 'heart' or lack thereof is not really an issue. Nothing, however perfect, they could show me now could possibly get me the way it would have four decades ago, and that's all right. Perceptions change. Star Wars is for kids, and at some point we all put childish things away.

I'm still looking forward to Episode IX, though, because grumpy Force ghost Luke, and the behind-the-scenes bits I've seen so far look awesome.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2018, 07:41:25 AM »

Honestly, the whole 'heart' or lack thereof is not really an issue (for you) ;). Nothing, however perfect, they could show me now could possibly get me the way it would have four decades ago, and that's all right. Perceptions change. Star Wars is for kids, and at some point we all put childish things away.


I have put childish things away, but as I said they hold a special place in my heart and in my upbringing, and always will.  I'm sure I would've probably enjoyed these new movies had they stuck with creating a whole new story with their new characters and left the old characters out of it.

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2018, 07:49:17 AM »

Honestly, the whole 'heart' or lack thereof is not really an issue (for you) ;). Nothing, however perfect, they could show me now could possibly get me the way it would have four decades ago, and that's all right. Perceptions change. Star Wars is for kids, and at some point we all put childish things away.


I have put childish things away, but as I said they hold a special place in my heart and in my upbringing, and always will.  I'm sure I would've probably enjoyed these new movies had they stuck with creating a whole new story with their new characters and left the old characters out of it.

They were special when I was a tween as well, and the nostalgia factor remains high, but if I'd first seen them as I am now, I'd probably just say 'cool story bro' and move on.

I don't agree with everything (or even most things) that has been done with the canon over the decades - and I include books, animated TV and games in this; I still can't quite get over the Legends thing - but eh. Keep what you like, dump the rest, and enjoy your life.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2018, 07:51:53 AM »

Honestly, the whole 'heart' or lack thereof is not really an issue (for you) ;). Nothing, however perfect, they could show me now could possibly get me the way it would have four decades ago, and that's all right. Perceptions change. Star Wars is for kids, and at some point we all put childish things away.


I have put childish things away, but as I said they hold a special place in my heart and in my upbringing, and always will.  I'm sure I would've probably enjoyed these new movies had they stuck with creating a whole new story with their new characters and left the old characters out of it.

They were special when I was a tween as well, and the nostalgia factor remains high, but if I'd first seen them as I am now, I'd probably just say 'cool story bro' and move on.

I don't agree with everything (or even most things) that has been done with the canon over the decades - and I include books, animated TV and games in this; I still can't quite get over the Legends thing - but eh. Keep what you like, dump the rest, and enjoy your life.

Well said.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2018, 02:09:02 PM »
I'm with you, PorphyriosK (and Iconodule). Only I didn't make the right judgment call on not seeing them.
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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2018, 02:16:18 PM »
Disney is using one man's life's work, his labor of love, and milking it for every cent they can squeeze out.  It’s a total shame. 

I really don't know what you mean. 

Anyway, here's what I bought at the grocery store today:


Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2018, 02:17:16 PM »
To be fair Star Wars was super commercialized from day 1 as far as I could tell.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2018, 02:22:38 PM »
No, there is a marked difference between the Lucas films and the space-opera-by-committee they’re feeding us now. Even the prequels, bad as they are, have a certain Ed Wood charm to them. Porphyrios, you’re definitely not missing anything. As far as mindless spectacles go, the recent batch of Marvel movies is much more successful.

Is there really much of a difference, though. I have a hard time getting into that head space, as much as I might try.

Any specific examples you have in mind?  Is it all the toyetics? I did notice that in Last Jedi, but it's not as though Lucas wasn't basically the inventor of the modern move merchandising craze. I mean, yes the lack of a funeral for Han was irksome, it was something Lucas probably would have done (although Obi Wan and Yoda didn't get one, so maybe not). I'll give you that.

I disagree with Porphyrios that killing Han off was a bad call. First of all, Harrison Ford wanted out of the franchise, and that had to be dealt with just as surely as the next movie is going to have to deal with Carrie Fisher's passing (and the next Star Trek movie will have to somehow deal with the death of Anton Yelchin). Second, I thought that the death itself was handled with enough thematic gravitas (given that these movies were never Shakespeare, of course). I thought that Luke's death was just as good with the "two sun" bookend, etc.
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2018, 06:17:27 PM »
No, there is a marked difference between the Lucas films and the space-opera-by-committee they’re feeding us now. Even the prequels, bad as they are, have a certain Ed Wood charm to them. Porphyrios, you’re definitely not missing anything. As far as mindless spectacles go, the recent batch of Marvel movies is much more successful.

Is there really much of a difference, though. I have a hard time getting into that head space, as much as I might try.

Any specific examples you have in mind?  Is it all the toyetics? I did notice that in Last Jedi, but it's not as though Lucas wasn't basically the inventor of the modern move merchandising craze. I mean, yes the lack of a funeral for Han was irksome, it was something Lucas probably would have done (although Obi Wan and Yoda didn't get one, so maybe not). I'll give you that.

I disagree with Porphyrios that killing Han off was a bad call. First of all, Harrison Ford wanted out of the franchise, and that had to be dealt with just as surely as the next movie is going to have to deal with Carrie Fisher's passing (and the next Star Trek movie will have to somehow deal with the death of Anton Yelchin). Second, I thought that the death itself was handled with enough thematic gravitas (given that these movies were never Shakespeare, of course). I thought that Luke's death was just as good with the "two sun" bookend, etc.

If they were going to kill Han, he should've gone out in a blaze of glory flying the Millennium Falcon directly into harms way to save a planet or something along those lines.  It should've been a hero's glorious death, not some sneaky sucker punch!  And it should've happened after he'd had the chance to see Luke one last time and greet his old friend.  And then after that, the whole army should've honored him with a fitting memorial for his lifelong heroism against the Empire.  The aftermath in the Force Awakens is that Chewbacca walked right past Leah without even a glance.  No hug or mutual consoling each other for their loss.  Nothing.  It was bizarre.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2018, 06:28:02 PM »
No, there is a marked difference between the Lucas films and the space-opera-by-committee they’re feeding us now. Even the prequels, bad as they are, have a certain Ed Wood charm to them. Porphyrios, you’re definitely not missing anything. As far as mindless spectacles go, the recent batch of Marvel movies is much more successful.

Is there really much of a difference, though. I have a hard time getting into that head space, as much as I might try.

Any specific examples you have in mind?  Is it all the toyetics? I did notice that in Last Jedi, but it's not as though Lucas wasn't basically the inventor of the modern move merchandising craze. I mean, yes the lack of a funeral for Han was irksome, it was something Lucas probably would have done (although Obi Wan and Yoda didn't get one, so maybe not). I'll give you that.

I disagree with Porphyrios that killing Han off was a bad call. First of all, Harrison Ford wanted out of the franchise, and that had to be dealt with just as surely as the next movie is going to have to deal with Carrie Fisher's passing (and the next Star Trek movie will have to somehow deal with the death of Anton Yelchin). Second, I thought that the death itself was handled with enough thematic gravitas (given that these movies were never Shakespeare, of course). I thought that Luke's death was just as good with the "two sun" bookend, etc.

If they were going to kill Han, he should've gone out in a blaze of glory flying the Millennium Falcon directly into harms way to save a planet or something along those lines.  It should've been a hero's glorious death, not some sneaky sucker punch!  And it should've happened after he'd had the chance to see Luke one last time and greet his old friend.  And then after that, the whole army should've honored him with a fitting memorial for his lifelong heroism against the Empire.  The aftermath in the Force Awakens is that Chewbacca walked right past Leah without even a glance.  No hug or mutual consoling each other for their loss.  Nothing.  It was bizarre.

I think he died just like Obi Wan did, trying to conquer aggression with love (or at least peace, in Obi Wan's case) and it worked well enough thematically. I do agree about how they at least handled the emotional parts of the aftermath, though.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 06:29:16 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.