Author Topic: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...  (Read 2805 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« on: December 19, 2017, 10:47:03 PM »
So, after a year, I'm certain about Orthodoxy - but I am currently kind of questioning whether or not I should stick with the Church I'm currently at, or whether I should wait a little bit.

I'm currently a Junior in college, and with my current study schedule, I won't be home this Summer... and probably the next Summer.
The only Orthodox Churches around me are two OCA Churches and one Greek Church - and as someone who has a personal favoritism towards Western Rite Orthodoxy and ROCOR's Slavonic Tradition, I'm questioning what to do.

On the one hand - and this may be Roman Catholicism still rubbing off of me - I kind of feel like, due to circumstances, that I have almost been destined for OCA. In Traditional Catholicism, there is an idea that God gives you your rite, and you aren't allowed to change it unless of circumstance. So, for example, if you are born a Melkite, you should do everything you can to stay a Melkite - and if you are a convert, and the first church you go to is Ruthenian Catholic, you should stay Ruthenian or Ukrainian Catholic.

In a sense, I've kind of kept this idea - and considering that OCA has been the first Orthodox Church I attended, and has been the main Church I've attended with a life changing priest. This priest has been pivotal in my transition to Orthodoxy (although my hostile conservatism hasn't been the cause, it's been me struggling away from Catholicism and me struggling to have a consistent relationship with God).

I also see the OCA has a very important organization, as I think it's important for the United States to have an autocephalous, unique Orthodox jurisdiction - and it could be the jurisdiction which can be the compromise over who gets jurisdiction in America, while also making Orthodoxy available for all. It could also be beneficial for converts looking into Orthodoxy who might not feel comfortable attending an ethnic parish.

And - regardless of what I do in this life in the future - I still hope that Orthodoxy would be the most important thing in my life, with me sharing this Gift from God with a lot of people, friends - and I think of the possibility of me maybe having a wife and having kids in the future, and sharing Orthodoxy with them (if I don't get married to an Orthodox ethnic woman, which I'm totally fine with, by the way) - and I wonder if the kids will have a greater retention in Orthodoxy if they were stuck in a Russian Orthodox community. And how about the people who have never heard of Orthodoxy who might be opposed to converting when they see the ethnic affiliation?

Here's the flipside - I don't know if it would be necessarily wise to convert now, because I'm only going to be with that community for one and a half more years and possibly never see them again. Obviously I will remain in contact with the parishioners and the priests, who are my friends, but nonetheless depending on where I am it may even be foolish of where I am to be part of the OCA. I might live in a city where they have no jurisdiction!

And on a personal level, ROCOR appeals to who I am as an individual. Last Sunday I attended a ROCOR Liturgy which was completely in Church Slavonic, and I loved it. I loved the priests' vestments as well as the Kamilavka, and the art, and as an individual who used to attend the Tridentine Mass, there was something intrinsically beautiful to listening to an unbroken liturgical Tradition in an Ancient Language that I find beautiful. To hear the Liturgy Saint Cyril and Saint Methodosius would be used to listening to while following along was stunning to me and I loved it personally.

And the style of chanting - English or Slavonic - that is used in ROCOR I just generally preferred it over OCA.
I also loved the priests and the community at the ROCOR Church I attended - however, I don't see this as viable for home considering I won't be at home for the next couple of summers.

I also am interested in Western Rite Orthodoxy, which isn't as viable of an option to me right now - but nonetheless, I still think it's a possibility, to celebrate Mass in the same way that Saint Gregory, Saint Patrick, Saint Brigid, and Saint Cuthbert would feel home at - Saints that share a greater sense of heritage that I own. And even though Western Rite Orthodoxy is rather small right now, I could see a potential home for the Liturgy of Saint Gregory in the future for Orthodoxy as being a powerful and significant expression of the Orthodox Faith.

But I'm hesitant to delay my entrance into the Church. I don't want to get hit by a car and die in a couple of months accidentally and have no chance of making it into Heaven; at least, there's a greater chance of my already limited chance of making it into Heaven.

A part of me feels like God, for the purpose of Orthodoxy as a whole and for others, wants me to be in OCA.

However, another part of me - in terms of my own relationship with God - feels destined for ROCOR, either in the Western Rite or in the Russian Liturgical Tradition. I feel like I can greatly connect with God moreso than OCA based on what I find more comfortable and beautiful in - not that I haven't connected with God in OCA, oh no, of course not - I love the unique expression of Orthodoxy that OCA has brought to the table, and I've had some serious moments with God in OCA. But in terms of where I feel more comfortable and what I personally desire, for a greater relationship with God, I should be in ROCOR or ROCOR-WR.

But I don't know what to do, honestly. I've talked to my priest about this, and he said that I shouldn't be distracted by external visuals and should go where I feel God wants me to be. However, I don't know what the more moral option is in this case - should I do what's best for me in connecting with God, or do what's best for the Orthodox Church as a whole and where God via circumstances has placed me? Should I wait before I'm either Baptized or Chrismated, or should I do it asap?

Thanks.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 11:11:39 PM »
We have no rule fastening the layman to a certain rite or jurisdiction for life. The Roman Catholic rule you quote stems from an old Roman distrust of Eastern Rite Catholicism. In our case, to be Eastern Orthodox is only a matter of orthodoxy and canonicity. So I implore you to loose your mind from these concerns and revel in the rich variety of our traditions.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 11:56:31 PM »
In the US, you generally should go with the Orthodox Churches in your local area---I have been in GOAA, ROCOR, and the Antiochian Orthodox churches and attend the closest one to my home, currently I travel 58 miles one way to go to services, however in one town I lived I was only 2 blocks to church. Remember in the US you will likely need to focus more on what is available to you rather than focusing on jurisdiction.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 12:39:35 AM »
In the US, you generally should go with the Orthodox Churches in your local area---I have been in GOAA, ROCOR, and the Antiochian Orthodox churches and attend the closest one to my home, currently I travel 58 miles one way to go to services, however in one town I lived I was only 2 blocks to church. Remember in the US you will likely need to focus more on what is available to you rather than focusing on jurisdiction.

Yeah...but in my area right now (near Cleveland) there's essentially every type of Jurisdiction available (Serbian, Romanian, OCA, Greek, Antiochian and Russian) - while the closest ones that are just a couple of minutes away include a Serbian Church, a Greek Church, and two OCA Churches. I attended both OCA Churches - one was not that pleasant, and the other was nice with an awesome priest - I could see that working out - but there's not really anyone close to my age who I can talk with or relate to.

The ROCOR Church I attended is 30 minutes away, and I wonder if it's prelest that I chose to go there instead of the other, closer options.

Back to my question, which is kind of two fold.

1. Do I have a right to pick my liturgical rite where I feel comfortable at, or should you stick with the Church jurisdiction which you happened to learn and develop into Orthodoxy? Is it immoral to go out of my way to pursue a liturgical rite I feel comfortable at? Would it be immoral to choose a Church based on what my own preferences are?
2. What should I do with where I am in life right now, which is kind of set aside from liturgical preference? Should I go into OCA soon, or - because of the fact that I will only be there for a year and a half - should I just wait a year and a half when I might be settled in a different area with a different Church jurisdiction?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:43:02 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 12:45:41 AM »
Back to my question, which is kind of two fold.

1. Do I have a right to pick my liturgical rite where I feel comfortable at, or should you stick with the Church jurisdiction which you happened to learn and develop into Orthodoxy? Is it immoral to go out of my way to pursue a liturgical rite I feel comfortable at? Would it be immoral to choose a Church based on what my own preferences are?

Yes to the first part.  No to the second part.  No to the third part.

2. What should I do with where I am in life right now, which is kind of set aside from liturgical preference? Should I go into OCA soon, or - because of the fact that I will only be there for a year and a half - should I just wait a year and a half when I might be settled in a different area with a different Church jurisdiction?

If you like the priest at the OCA church, stick with that for now.  When you go somewhere else, you can find another OCA church or perhaps another jurisdiction that you like.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 01:14:35 AM »
Should I join that Church or not?

And is it possible that one can be called by God to be in a specific jurisdiction against what they personally want?

I think it's kind of a discernment of God's will.

In a sense, God made me with my preferences towards Russian liturgical practice as well as Western liturgical practice - but at the same time, I wonder if how I am where I currently am is the work of God, and I should continue in OCA.

Is it a test from God to see how faithful I am to Him? To obey His will with my liturgical life when I may have other preferences? Or am I making much ado about nothing?

So, should I look inwardly to find God's Will, or should I examine the external world to find God's Will?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:23:03 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 01:21:05 AM »
I'd focus on my studies if you believe that exploring the Orthodox church has an adverse effect on you.  If your studies can handle becoming a cathecumen in the Orthodox Church, go ahead and join the OCA.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 01:22:16 AM »
I'd focus on my studies if you believe that exploring the Orthodox church has an adverse effect on you.  If your studies can handle becoming a cathecumen in the Orthodox Church, go ahead and join the OCA.

What do you mean by this?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 02:10:36 AM »
Should I join that Church or not?
When you join the Orthodox Church you join a catholic Church, beyond this or that jurisdiction.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 01:43:51 PM »
Should I join that Church or not?

And is it possible that one can be called by God to be in a specific jurisdiction against what they personally want?

I think it's kind of a discernment of God's will.

In a sense, God made me with my preferences towards Russian liturgical practice as well as Western liturgical practice - but at the same time, I wonder if how I am where I currently am is the work of God, and I should continue in OCA.

Is it a test from God to see how faithful I am to Him? To obey His will with my liturgical life when I may have other preferences? Or am I making much ado about nothing?

So, should I look inwardly to find God's Will, or should I examine the external world to find God's Will?

You sound like me not all that long ago.  Go where you're comfortable and where you can be catechized.  It might be "ethnic" and it might not be--such a thing shouldn't factor into your decision if the first two criteria are met.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 01:52:35 PM »
I don't think anyone will bother you if you want to visit a few other parishes to see what they are like.
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Offline William T

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2017, 01:53:34 PM »
 to a newly orthodox who feel as if picking a Parish is a major part of some soul finding decision to "Being right with God"   i would suggest this:

Pick the closest most convenient non nutty Church you can find that is at least not non welcoming*,  and stick with it unless you get massive and plain as day obvious feedback otherwise.  If you are typing up long gut  wrenching "discernment" posts wondering if you choose the parish right for you, consider that a sign that you are not getting massive or obvious feedback,  and to stick to that Parish,  which by your measure at that time was the closest most convenient welcoming parish.   Consider that your parish,  and all other thoughts about choosing to be a major distraction for the time being.   If you still have thoughts on switching after a couple years.

* for example if you go to an "Arabic" Church and they seem confused that you are there because your not Arabic,  find a new Parish.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 02:01:23 PM by William T »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 02:59:47 PM »
Why write one off ? You can go to both places.

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 03:15:22 PM »
You are overthinking it. Be happy that you have myriad of options and pick the one where you could see yourself attending most regularly. It doesn't make a big difference whichever you choose. There is no Jew or Greek in Christ.
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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 03:17:48 PM »
Reading this, I have the same impression I have of most threads you start: This guy is overthinking it.

Go where you want. Be catechized. Receive the seal of the Holy Spirit. And when you move, find another church in which you are comfortable. It is, as has been pointed out, a Catholic faith. The entire idea of having to pick a jurisdiction and stick with it in some meaningful way is endemic to the diaspora, but it's not how the Church operated for the first 1900 years of its existence.
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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 04:45:09 PM »
I agree with Agabus and Alpo. I may add: visit all the churches in the neasrest area. Choose by the distance (that you can easily attend services and some other parish activities) and good priest (that could be your spiritual father, confessor). Don't focus on otehr factos, sicne if you move somewhere, they won't be important anymore (and the distance and your priest are always important thing).

The idea that you mentioned in the first post doesnt' make any sense: e.g my father was baptised and grown up in the Serbian Orthodox Church, but he's been living in Poland 27 years, so it's natural that now he goes (well, sometimes, but still) to the parishes of the Polish Orthodox Church, and actually, one parish: that's the closest to us.
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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 05:22:48 PM »
Should I join that Church or not?




All canonical Jurisdictions are THE CHURCH.......it matters not which parish of which jurisdiction you are received by and or stay at.......
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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2017, 12:33:38 AM »
Saints that share a greater sense of heritage that I own.
Orphans don't own heritages
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:34:12 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline MariaJLM

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 10:03:31 PM »
I understand being partial towards one jurisdiction in particular. I'm sort of the same way. However, we Orthodox in the West cannot really be fussy. Often we're lucky if there's a parish nearby at all! I don't know where you live, but if there's multiple parishes then go to whichever one you feel most drawn to. Trust your gut because chances are God is pulling you to a particular place!

On a related note, they're all Orthodox so in the long run it does not matter where you go as long as they're canonical.

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2017, 10:23:51 PM »
Next thread: "My Jurisdiction Over Dilemmas" ;) When you realise you have none then your anxiety might decrease? Worked for me, anyway!

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2017, 04:09:21 PM »
Do you want to be a slave to Christ or not?
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2017, 06:01:53 PM »

And is it possible that one can be called by God to be in a specific jurisdiction against what they personally want?


God calls us to faith, not to one jurisdiction or another.  Whichever community is agreeable to you and connects you with the Divine is the one for you. 

Offline pasadi97

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 07:45:47 PM »
Orthodoxy is perfect religion made by perfect God. Once you become orthodox you are right with God as denomination is involved.
To enter orthodoxy I would choose a church that will baptize over a Church that will chrismate.
I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no.
I would pray to God to lead my steps in my journey to Heaven to finding the right church and to bring me to Heaven. Sine the legend of the white cowl said that Russians will keep the tradition until the end I would try to enter orthodoxy through ROCOR and stick with Rocor as much as possible. After entering orthodoxy if ROCOR not available I would go to OCA or another orthodox Church but I would try that my baptism and entrance to be done by ROCOR.
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Offline biro

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 07:58:09 PM »
Orthodoxy is perfect religion made by perfect God. Once you become orthodox you are right with God as denomination is involved.
To enter orthodoxy I would choose a church that will baptize over a Church that will chrismate.
I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no.
I would pray to God to lead my steps in my journey to Heaven to finding the right church and to bring me to Heaven. Sine the legend of the white cowl said that Russians will keep the tradition until the end I would try to enter orthodoxy through ROCOR and stick with Rocor as much as possible. After entering orthodoxy if ROCOR not available I would go to OCA or another orthodox Church but I would try that my baptism and entrance to be done by ROCOR.

I entered by chrismation. What is your problem?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 07:58:56 PM »
Orthodoxy is perfect religion made by perfect God. Once you become orthodox you are right with God as denomination is involved.
To enter orthodoxy I would choose a church that will baptize over a Church that will chrismate.
I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no.
I would pray to God to lead my steps in my journey to Heaven to finding the right church and to bring me to Heaven. Sine the legend of the white cowl said that Russians will keep the tradition until the end I would try to enter orthodoxy through ROCOR and stick with Rocor as much as possible. After entering orthodoxy if ROCOR not available I would go to OCA or another orthodox Church but I would try that my baptism and entrance to be done by ROCOR.

I entered by chrismation. What is your problem?
I bet you didn't glow.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline biro

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 08:00:10 PM »
Smiled a lot, but no glow. :)
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 09:15:17 PM »
From what I know it looks like monks at Mount Athos have a problem with entering through chrismation and not through baptism. Ask them why.
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Offline biro

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 09:16:35 PM »
From what I know it looks like monks at Mount Athos have a problem with entering through chrismation and not through baptism. Ask them why.

Nobody has to be chrismated by monks from Mt. Athos. You ask my bishop.

https://www.goarch.org/-/his-eminence-metropolitan-alexios-of-atlanta
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:17:35 PM by biro »
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Offline irishpilgrim

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions... In
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2018, 10:46:09 PM »
Orthodoxy is perfect religion made by perfect God. Once you become orthodox you are right with God as denomination is involved.
To enter orthodoxy I would choose a church that will baptize over a Church that will chrismate.
I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no.
I would pray to God to lead my steps in my journey to Heaven to finding the right church and to bring me to Heaven. Sine the legend of the white cowl said that Russians will keep the tradition until the end I would try to enter orthodoxy through ROCOR and stick with Rocor as much as possible. After entering orthodoxy if ROCOR not available I would go to OCA or another orthodox Church but I would try that my baptism and entrance to be done by ROCOR.

I agree that you should only choose to enter Orthodoxy through the complete rite of Holy Orthodox Baptism and complete initiation Anointing as all true Orthodox have traditionally entered the true Orthodox Church from the beginning. Otherwise you will join the increasing numbers of short changed/quickies that may reasonably doubt their crucial Christian credentials. Why live with a deficiency of such an obvious traditional Christian Blessing? And why give credibility to such repetitive gross spiritual negligence? Many short changed Orthodox convert priests and laity have long suffered how to overcome this defective initiation. Study and discuss this issue thoroughly, the lazy counterfeiters are too many.

Irish Pilgrim,
 Your presentation and invitation to discuss this area should be posted in the Christian Discussion Forum rather than in the Convert Issues Forum as you are  introducing controversy into the Forum, a violation of this forum's rules.  Please note that it is the gift of the Holy Spirit (Charism) of the Jurisdiction's Bishops to determine what eoconomia is allowable and when eoconomia will be used. It is true that ROCOR requires in most cases an Orthodox baptism  and then chrismation, however I have known some who came thru ROCOR  with eoconomia allowing Chrismation and not requiring an Orthodox Baptism. It is notable that if a person from another Orthodox jurisdiction enters ROCOR they are not "rebaptised" but are allowed to commune within the ROCOR Jurisdiction from any Orthodox Jurisdiction they are currently in communion with after the precommunion confession ROCOR requires to commune.  Other Orthodox Jurisdictions utilize Economia more frequently and I have seen many variant  rulings from Bishops that address the individual needs of the faithful and those who wish to enter Holy Orthodoxy, the bishops rule in these matters as directed by the Holy Spirit. If you as a Layman have issues with this please discuss it with your pastor or your bishop, I have found both to be open to this discussion in my past.
Again, Please refrain from introducing this type of controversy into the Convert Issues Forum in the future.
Thomas, Convert Issues Forum Moderator


« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:52:59 AM by Thomas »

Offline biro

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2018, 11:54:51 PM »
Chrismation is not negligence.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2018, 10:00:56 AM »
Im not saying chrismation is bad.
I am saying baptism is better and since entranc to Church is the ticket to Heaven I would shoot to the best.
Baptism in ROCOR.
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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2018, 10:34:57 AM »
Yes, you did imply chrismation is bad.

Whatever else my problems are, I did become really Orthodox, I was received in the prescribed way, and neither I nor anybody else should have to listen to some nosy busybody tell them different.
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Offline Rambam

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2018, 11:50:52 AM »
There's more than one prescribed way, depending on jurisdiction.

That may be a lot of things, but Catholic it ain't.



Yes, you did imply chrismation is bad.

Whatever else my problems are, I did become really Orthodox, I was received in the prescribed way, and neither I nor anybody else should have to listen to some nosy busybody tell them different.

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2018, 03:07:58 PM »
Chrismation is not negligence.

The quicky Metro Philipian Antiochian chrismation initiation that I received neglected all acts and prayers of Orthodox immersion Baptism and neglected the multiple annointings that I later gratefully received in conjunction with my Orthodox Coptic Baptism. During several blessed Antiochian years, I was repeatedly advised that my initiation form was not traditionally Orthodox Christian.

That's your opinion.

Mine was traditional. They didn' t leave anything out.

They did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Knock it off with your repetitious nonsense.
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Offline WPM

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2018, 04:44:14 PM »
Basically, how to find your way to the Church monastery.
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 03:00:12 AM »
Chrismation is a perfectly fine way to receive someone, and there are even less strict methods of reception that can be used, but the Church, wherever you may find it, isn't compelled to accept any of the rites done outside herself, even if both official and unofficial responses might generally profess their propriety.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Rambam

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Re: My Dilemma with Jurisdictions...
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 11:20:19 AM »
Yeah, but. Was there an organ playing?


Chrismation is not negligence.

The quicky Metro Philipian Antiochian chrismation initiation that I received neglected all acts and prayers of Orthodox immersion Baptism and neglected the multiple annointings that I later gratefully received in conjunction with my Orthodox Coptic Baptism. During several blessed Antiochian years, I was repeatedly advised that my initiation form was not traditionally Orthodox Christian.

That's your opinion.

Mine was traditional. They didn' t leave anything out.

They did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Knock it off with your repetitious nonsense.