Author Topic: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist  (Read 2439 times)

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Offline Xavier

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The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« on: December 19, 2017, 01:53:43 AM »
The Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano in the first Christian millenium proves (1) the Flesh of Christ we adore is from His own Sacred Heart (2) that the Heart of Jesua is to be adored with that true and proper worship of latria we render to the Holy Eucharist. It is His Heart's Blood that the Savior as the best of Fathers has given to His children on the Altar that that they may drink and have eternal Life. http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

(More trivially, miracles like these that have continued in the 2nd Christian millenium in the west refutes the extreme errors of some dissidents among the Greeks who claimed the Host could not be confected in unleavened Bread; God Almighty seeing fit to refute them Himself by this demonstration of His power)

Quote
The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).

2. It is sometimes claimed the Sacred Heart devotion is "Nestorian", which is an extraordinary error and the exact contrary of the truth. The Sacred Heart devotion is anti-Nestorian and refusing to adore the Lord's Heart, or His hands, His feet, His wounds etc as the true Heart, hands, feet etc of God incarnate is what is Nestorian. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3810.htm see canon 8, Nestorius claims God is not to be adored as having become true Man; whereas St. Cyril and the Church teach Immanuel is to be adored as the Incarnate God-Man.

Finally, the Heart of Christ is the Seat of His Love; and as the Son is often called the consubstantial eternal Word and Wisdom of God in the Scriptures, so the Holy Spirit is called the consubstantial Love between the Father and the Son; so it was also revealed to show that the Spirit is the eternal consubstantial Love of the Father and the Son. Even Abp. Gregory Palamas states "The Spirit of the most high Word is like an ineffable love of the Father for this Word ineffably generated. A love which this same Word and beloved Son of the Father entertains (crhtai) towards the Father: but insofar as he has the Spirit coming with him (sunproelqonta) from the Father and reposing connaturally in him"  the Lord says "the Love wherewith you loved Me may be in them" (Jn 17:26) and "thou hast loved me before the creation of the world" ((Jn 17:24) https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM

What, then, is the reason not to adore the Sacred Heart of Jesus?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:57:19 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 01:42:03 PM »
Catholic proselytizing has replaced the threat of the rack with the threat of being bored to death, I see.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 02:32:38 PM »
Catholic proselytizing has replaced the threat of the rack with the threat of being bored to death, I see.
Isn't roman catholicism included in your divided church theory ? Why discriminate ?


Quote
The Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano in the first Christian millenium proves (1) the Flesh of Christ we adore is from His own Sacred Heart (2) that the Heart of Jesua is to be adored with that true and proper worship of latria we render to the Holy Eucharist. It is His Heart's Blood that the Savior as the best of Fathers has given to His children on the Altar that that they may drink and have eternal Life. http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

(More trivially, miracles like these that have continued in the 2nd Christian millenium in the west refutes the extreme errors of some dissidents among the Greeks who claimed the Host could not be confected in unleavened Bread; God Almighty seeing fit to refute them Himself by this demonstration of His power)
When the eastern christian lands fell to the muslims, they(the muslims) forbade all sorts of alchohol and instead of wine the Church there had to use vinegar, was that an invalid Eucharist ? No. Does this mean vinegar is proper ingredient ? No.

Quote
2. It is sometimes claimed the Sacred Heart devotion is "Nestorian", which is an extraordinary error and the exact contrary of the truth. The Sacred Heart devotion is anti-Nestorian and refusing to adore the Lord's Heart, or His hands, His feet, His wounds etc as the true Heart, hands, feet etc of God incarnate is what is Nestorian. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3810.htm see canon 8, Nestorius claims God is not to be adored as having become true Man; whereas St. Cyril and the Church teach Immanuel is to be adored as the Incarnate God-Man.
The accusation is that you don't venerate the whole Christ but only part of Christ, focusing the heart. You could probably say that is not what you do and turn this accusation into a strawman argument but is such response a realistic ? Do RCs think of the whole Christ or focus/separate on the heart ? I don't really know what you do, i guess you do.
Quote
What, then, is the reason not to adore the Sacred Heart of Jesus?
There are some dangers, for example a person might begin to think that he is something special or something holy, the Church fathers teach us that we should love Christ by fulfilling His commandments, not by thinking high of ourselves or falling in dreams, romances, imaginations and self-exaltations
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 02:37:28 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 02:44:11 PM »
What is my divided church theory?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 03:39:00 PM »
Is not the heart of Son of God, worthy of worship? Is it somewhat less of the Son of God? If it is fully the Son of God, why is devotional worship to his heart wrong then? For worship of God can never be wrong.

In his encyclical on the Sacred Heart, Haurietis Aquas, Pope Pius XII gives us two reasons why we worship the heart of our Lord:

Quote
“ That all may understand more exactly the teachings… concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number.


1.The physical Heart of Christ is hypostatically united to the Divine Word

“The first [reason], which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honours the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.”

If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in his two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with his flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema. (2nd Council of Constantinople, Capitula, IX)

2. The Heart is a natural symbol of love for the God who is Love

“The other reason which refers in a particular manner to the Heart of the divine Redeemer, and likewise demands in a special way that the highest form of worship be paid to it, arises from the fact that His Heart, more than all the other members of His body, is the natural sign and symbol of His boundless love for the human race. “There is in the Sacred Heart,” as Our predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII, pointed out, “the symbol and express image of the infinite love of Jesus Christ which moves us to love in return.”
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:50:30 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 10:38:38 PM »
Is not the heart of Son of God, worthy of worship? Is it somewhat less of the Son of God? If it is fully the Son of God, why is devotional worship to his heart wrong then? For worship of God can never be wrong.

In his encyclical on the Sacred Heart, Haurietis Aquas, Pope Pius XII gives us two reasons why we worship the heart of our Lord:

Quote
“ That all may understand more exactly the teachings… concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number.


1.The physical Heart of Christ is hypostatically united to the Divine Word

“The first [reason], which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honours the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.”

If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in his two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with his flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema. (2nd Council of Constantinople, Capitula, IX)

2. The Heart is a natural symbol of love for the God who is Love

“The other reason which refers in a particular manner to the Heart of the divine Redeemer, and likewise demands in a special way that the highest form of worship be paid to it, arises from the fact that His Heart, more than all the other members of His body, is the natural sign and symbol of His boundless love for the human race. “There is in the Sacred Heart,” as Our predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII, pointed out, “the symbol and express image of the infinite love of Jesus Christ which moves us to love in return.”

I personally prefer the Humble Toe of Christ cult, since apparently no one can deny it is "fully the Son of God" of impiously declare it is "somewhat less than the Son of God." I particularly value the torrid sonnets to the Toe, and the exclusionary devotion of its followers.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 02:20:29 AM »
A devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a fine subject of reflection and prayer for a Latin Catholic.  But attempting to foist it, or any other favorite private devotion, on other Latin Catholics is boorish.  To attempt to foist it on non Latin Catholics or non Catholics is quite petulant!
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 05:08:09 AM »
Is not the heart of Son of God, worthy of worship? Is it somewhat less of the Son of God? If it is fully the Son of God, why is devotional worship to his heart wrong then? For worship of God can never be wrong.

In his encyclical on the Sacred Heart, Haurietis Aquas, Pope Pius XII gives us two reasons why we worship the heart of our Lord:

Quote
“ That all may understand more exactly the teachings… concerning this devotion, they must clearly understand the reasons why the Church gives the highest form of worship to the Heart of the divine Redeemer. As you well know, venerable brethren, the reasons are two in number.


1.The physical Heart of Christ is hypostatically united to the Divine Word

“The first [reason], which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honours the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself. We are dealing here with an article of faith, for it has been solemnly defined in the general Council of Ephesus and the second Council of Constantinople.”

If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in his two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with his flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema. (2nd Council of Constantinople, Capitula, IX)

2. The Heart is a natural symbol of love for the God who is Love

“The other reason which refers in a particular manner to the Heart of the divine Redeemer, and likewise demands in a special way that the highest form of worship be paid to it, arises from the fact that His Heart, more than all the other members of His body, is the natural sign and symbol of His boundless love for the human race. “There is in the Sacred Heart,” as Our predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII, pointed out, “the symbol and express image of the infinite love of Jesus Christ which moves us to love in return.”

I personally prefer the Humble Toe of Christ cult, since apparently no one can deny it is "fully the Son of God" of impiously declare it is "somewhat less than the Son of God." I particularly value the torrid sonnets to the Toe, and the exclusionary devotion of its followers.

It is God after all so worshiping even the smallest detail of him can never be wrong. Go for it :)
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 05:10:31 AM »
A devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a fine subject of reflection and prayer for a Latin Catholic.  But attempting to foist it, or any other favorite private devotion, on other Latin Catholics is boorish.  To attempt to foist it on non Latin Catholics or non Catholics is quite petulant!

Nobody is trying to do that. We are asking why they have a problem with it as if there is something theologically wrong with it for all too many times here I see them speak down on the devotion and almost insinuate that it’s heretical.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 05:52:09 AM »
A devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a fine subject of reflection and prayer for a Latin Catholic.  But attempting to foist it, or any other favorite private devotion, on other Latin Catholics is boorish.  To attempt to foist it on non Latin Catholics or non Catholics is quite petulant!

Nobody is trying to do that. We are asking why they have a problem with it as if there is something theologically wrong with it for all too many times here I see them speak down on the devotion and almost insinuate that it’s heretical.

I feel obligated morally (it's a grey decision no doubt) to explain what I thus so far know about the Orthodox view on this matter - of course, listen to other people, as they probably are more experienced than I am.

I would say that there are three things that are problematic with the Sacred Heart.

1. It's origin is rooted in the spirituality and mysticism of Margaret Mary Alacoque, who - especially from an Orthodox perspective - has some very questionable things about her spiritual life. In addition to kind of promoting a type of sensuality and romance with Christ that is seen with some Catholic nuns like Theresa of Avila, which is already problematic, there are things that stand out with Margaret Mary Alacoque that certainly causes one to raise eyebrows - like forcing some of her adherents to swallow papers and allowing "Jesus" to literally rip out her heart, make her heart like the Sacred Heart, and give it back to her, such that she could only find relief by "bleeding out the pain of the cut"
http://www.piercedhearts.org/theology_heart/life_saints/margaret_mary.htm

What also doesn't help her case is the mental problems she had dealt with prior to becoming a nun - her father died at 8, her uncle forced her to work at a boarding school, and she cut herself when she was younger.

Without Margaret Mary Alacoque, this devotion wouldn't exist.

All of these things, considering that this entire devotion is rooted in someone - from an Orthodox perspective - could have been spiritually deluded and shows symptoms of such is already enough to be dismissive. Not to make a statement about her relationship with God or where her soul is, but nonetheless for Orthodoxy it's something that shouldn't be touched.

2. From a theological perspective, many Orthodox don't buy the arguments that Pius XII puts forward. The idea that the physical heart is not just a human organ but is something alone worthy of adoration is problematic, and it's the problem Charbel brought up - that the physical heart and His toes are of the humanity of Christ, which, as the 2nd Council of Constantinople states, you cannot worship without the Divinity of Christ. The question I ask you is the following: if we can worship just human body parts of Christ, what was the purpose of the 2nd Council of Constantinople passing such a Canon? How is it possible to only worship the humanity of Christ if just worshiping the humanity of Christ is impossible?

3. It creates additions to Tradition that never existed in the Church's understanding of the Gospel, giving an accentuated role to the literal heart of Jesus as if it is a separate entity. The Roman Catholic Church has connected specific Gospel events to this devotion that are not part of the original Gospel - claiming that it was specifically from the heart of Christ that water and blood flowed from after Saint Longinus pierced Him, and Saint Longinus specifically pierced His heart; that Saint John specifically wanted to rub his head against the heart of Jesus to "feel His Love", that His eternal heart beats throughout Heaven, etc.

While no doubt the heart is a symbol of Love and is used metaphorically as a symbol of love in the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church has exalted the heart as if it's a completely distinct thing - an idea which didn't come about until the 17th century in Roman Catholicism. Even if these potential problems didn't exist, the Orthodox Church tries its best to keep to its core. Pipe organs and their usage in the Orthodox Church is already something that has led to a lot of infighting and accusations of modernism / indifferentism, let alone a private revelation from someone outside the Church.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 06:02:19 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 06:40:53 AM »
I see what you are getting at.

On point 2, this question will solve the legitimacy of the devotion :

Is the Eucharist the flesh of Christ? And are it’s smallest particles fully the Son of God?

Because if your objection amounts to worshiping a part of him like his heart is wrong because it is human, this is crypto nestorianism for the flesh of Christ is still the Son of God. The Son of God is worshipped in his humanity and divinity. Meaning even his toe nails are worthy of worship.

On point 3, if you honestly think tradition does not grow then the Byzantine church has a lot of offloading to do. Traditions and devotions grow with each generation. The faith is not stagnant, like a seed it grows into a tree and that tree grows branches and those branches grow leaves. Tradition is not meant to remain a first millennium seed for what good is a seed that does not grow.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 06:45:15 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2017, 07:07:26 AM »
I see what you are getting at.

On point 2, this question will solve the legitimacy of the devotion :

Is the Eucharist the flesh of Christ? And are it’s smallest particles fully the Son of God?

Because if your objection amounts to worshiping a part of him like his heart is wrong because it is human, this is crypto nestorianism for the flesh of Christ is still the Son of God. The Son of God is worshipped in his humanity and divinity. Meaning even his toe nails are worthy of worship.

On point 3, if you honestly think tradition does not grow then the Byzantine church has a lot of offloading to do. Traditions and devotions grow with each generation. The faith is not stagnant, like a seed it grows into a tree and that tree grows branches and those branches grow leaves. Tradition is not meant to remain a first millennium seed for what good is a seed that does not grow.

Come on, man - pulling out the "Nestorian" accusation?
I'm supposed to take a break from theological debate as a sort of penance - but on observing this post and nobody really giving answers (except Charbel), I felt obligated to given an Orthodox response.

Each particle of the Eucharist is not simply the skin of Christ - it is the fullness of Christ in who He is in every single particle. It's a Mystery.

I also once again ask you the same question - how can the Council condemn the worship of the human nature of Christ alone if it is impossible to do so by worshiping only the humanity of Christ?

The adoration of the heart by itself is clearly a separating of the humanity from the Divinity of Christ and only adoring that aspect of Christ.

As for development, considering that such development happened outside the Church - at best, all that can be said is such development is suspect and shouldn't be changed for the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 07:18:47 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 07:31:39 AM »
I see what you are getting at.

On point 2, this question will solve the legitimacy of the devotion :

Is the Eucharist the flesh of Christ? And are it’s smallest particles fully the Son of God?

Because if your objection amounts to worshiping a part of him like his heart is wrong because it is human, this is crypto nestorianism for the flesh of Christ is still the Son of God. The Son of God is worshipped in his humanity and divinity. Meaning even his toe nails are worthy of worship.

On point 3, if you honestly think tradition does not grow then the Byzantine church has a lot of offloading to do. Traditions and devotions grow with each generation. The faith is not stagnant, like a seed it grows into a tree and that tree grows branches and those branches grow leaves. Tradition is not meant to remain a first millennium seed for what good is a seed that does not grow.

Come on, man - pulling out the "Nestorian" accusation?
I'm supposed to take a break from theological debate as a sort of penance - but on observing this post and nobody really giving answers (except Charbel), I felt obligated to given an Orthodox response.

The Nestorian reference is very relevant because of you speak of humanity of Christ as if it is somewhat not him. We worship the persons of the trinity. We worship the Son of God who is both man and divine. His humanity is worshiped because of who he is. Because of the hypostatic union.

Quote
Each particle of the Eucharist is not simply the skin of Christ - it is the fullness of Christ in who He is in every single particle. It's a Mystery.
Yes now we are getting somewhere.

Quote
I also once again ask you the same question - how can the Council condemn the worship of the human nature of Christ alone if it is impossible to do so by worshiping only the humanity of Christ?
This is where you misunderstand the devotion. The devotion is not the worship of his humanity solely for Christ’s humanity is never for one moment separated from his divinity. The sacred heart is the hypostatically united heart of our Lord. It is the flesh of the Eucharist specified to one aspect of his flesh contained in the Eucharist.

Quote
The adoration of the heart by itself is clearly a separating of the humanity from the Divinity of Christ and only adoring that aspect of Christ.

As for development, considering that such development happened outside the Church - at best, all that can be said is such development is suspect and shouldn't be changed for the Orthodox Church.
I’ll repeat again.

This is where you misunderstand the devotion. The devotion is not the worship of his humanity solely for Christ’s humanity is never for one moment separated from his divinity. The sacred heart is the hypostatically united heart of our Lord. It is the flesh of the Eucharist specified to one aspect of his flesh contained in the Eucharist.

Pope Pius XII made this very clear when he said :

Quote
“The first [reason], which applies also to the other sacred members of the Body of Jesus Christ, rests on that principle whereby we recognize that His Heart, the noblest part of human nature, is hypostatically united to the Person of the divine Word. Consequently, there must be paid to it that worship of adoration with which the Church honours the Person of the Incarnate Son of God Himself.”

If you object to this reasoning then you pretty much object to the worship of the Eucharist for he same principle of he worship of the Eucharist if the principle of the worship of the most scared heart of our Lord... the Hypostatic Union.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 07:37:46 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 07:44:50 AM »
If it is for your penance then I advise you to stay away from such debates please. For the sake of your soul at least until you have done your penance.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 07:45:28 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 12:33:37 PM »
If it is for your penance then I advise you to stay away from such debates please. For the sake of your soul at least until you have done your penance.

You're out of line.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 12:39:49 PM »
Wandile, my post above about the Toe was meant to point out how farcically wrong you are in the nature of your arguments. However, you've moved beyond farce into some serious claims. No, it is not "Nestorianism" not to fetishize the Lord's heart. As now you are accusing us of rank heresy, you'll need to cite patristic and canonical sources for your peculiar reasoning, or be found a false witness.
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Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 03:56:08 PM »
If it is for your penance then I advise you to stay away from such debates please. For the sake of your soul at least until you have done your penance.

You're out of line.

I actually meant that sincerely. It was not meant to be snarky or anything like that.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Sharbel

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 10:45:10 PM »
If it is for your penance then I advise you to stay away from such debates please. For the sake of your soul at least until you have done your penance.
I actually meant that sincerely. It was not meant to be snarky or anything like that.
When someone promotes a private revelation and devotion as a matter for all the faithful to believe, which no Catholic is obliged to, it doesn't surprise me at all that you'd be arrogant enough to pretend to have any knowledge on the state of someone else's soul.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2017, 03:05:20 AM »
Quote from: Sluzhebnik
If after the consecration of the bread & wine a miracle is revealed, ie, if the bread manifests the appearance of a child or the wine the appearance of blood, and if in a short time this appearance does not change, ie, if they do not appear again under the form of bread & wine, but if they remain thus without change, then let the priest not take communion because it is not the Body & Blood of Christ, but a miracle from God manifest only because of the lack of faith or some other reason.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 07:40:41 AM »
If it is for your penance then I advise you to stay away from such debates please. For the sake of your soul at least until you have done your penance.
I actually meant that sincerely. It was not meant to be snarky or anything like that.
When someone promotes a private revelation and devotion as a matter for all the faithful to believe, which no Catholic is obliged to, it doesn't surprise me at all that you'd be arrogant enough to pretend to have any knowledge on the state of someone else's soul.

I did no such thing. I just presented the validity of it. So please spare me with this. Rather focus on the arguments at hand.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Sharbel

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2018, 12:12:32 AM »
When someone promotes a private revelation and devotion as a matter for all the faithful to believe, which no Catholic is obliged to, it doesn't surprise me at all that you'd be arrogant enough to pretend to have any knowledge on the state of someone else's soul.

I did no such thing. I just presented the validity of it. So please spare me with this. Rather focus on the arguments at hand.

This very topic is such a thing.  As a private revelation, all mentions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus can be removed and nothing in Roman Catholicism would be lost.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2018, 12:06:09 PM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and (2) if we don't give just a veneration but the true worship of adoration to the Eucharist, how is it that we can fail to worship His Sacred Heart after it has been explicitly made known? All Christians worship the Heart of Christ (without knowing it) when they worship the Eucharist. We know what we worship. It is His Heart's Blood that Our Savior gives us on the Altar.

The devotion to the Sacred Heart has ancient roots in both Scripture and Tradition and has numerous witnesses both before and after St. Margaret Mary.

Quote
I also once again ask you the same question - how can the Council condemn the worship of the human nature of Christ alone if it is impossible to do so by worshiping only the humanity of Christ?

The canon you cite requires we adore the Body, Blood, Soul, Wounds, Hands and Feet of Jesus Christ Our Lord as the true Body, Wounds etc of God Incarnate. It was a condemnation of Nestorius. Nestorius held God the Word was one person (and was to be adored) and the Man Jesus another; he claimed Jesus in his humanity is not to be adored - but this was condemned; wherefore God is to be adored in His Humanity e.g. His Heart, Hands and Feet, Wounds etc and as true Man. In the Eucharist, do we adore God separately, and a man separately, or give one true worship of latria to the flesh of the God-Man?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 12:07:27 PM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2018, 05:31:46 PM »
I'm just happy to note that Holy Orthodoxy is as benefited by Xavier's bizarrely sophistical posts here as it's likely to be by anything internet. As someone, granted, without a Roman background, reading the traditional Roman way of thinking and arguing is like smelling poison -- one is repelled to run another direction, hopefully into the Ark of the True Church.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »
I'm just happy to note that Holy Orthodoxy is as benefited by Xavier's bizarrely sophistical posts here as it's likely to be by anything internet. As someone, granted, without a Roman background, reading the traditional Roman way of thinking and arguing is like smelling poison -- one is repelled to run another direction, hopefully into the Ark of the True Church.

I can confirm that the effect is the same for one with a Roman background.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2018, 06:39:53 PM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

It never ceases to amuse me how the West has added so many explanations and specificities, yet it's led to nothing but the impoverishment of the Apostolic Faith.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 09:50:15 AM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.

It’s one thing to ignore the devotion it’s another to reject it as heretical.

Quote
It never ceases to amuse me how the West has added so many explanations and specificities, yet it's led to nothing but the impoverishment of the Apostolic Faith.

This is your opinion. Nothing more. Please spare us this absolutism with which you speak. Ask the people whose faith has benefited by a all these devotions. If you don’t like them fine but please don’t speak absolutely about the effects of the devotion because their popularity already destroys your statements truthfulness.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:50:55 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 10:14:28 AM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.


what.

Quote
This is your opinion. Nothing more. Please spare us this absolutism with which you speak. Ask the people whose faith has benefited by a all these devotions. If you don’t like them fine but please don’t speak absolutely about the effects of the devotion because their popularity already destroys your statements truthfulness.

To quote Pope Pius IX from his "Syllabus of Errors" (that is, his collections of ideas that are heretical to Roman Catholicism)

"Authority is nothing else but numbers and the sum total of material forces."

Also, by your logic of finding truth from popularity, we should all be Muslim due to its growth rate.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:16:45 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 08:55:42 PM »
The soul does not have a particular location, especially if we are going to speak about the matter in classical or medieval terms. So the argument - that veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus does not include the soul and divinity of Christ (although it includes the body and blood of Christ) and therefore is not akin to the veneration of the Eucharist - is not something that follows from the Catholic/Latin practice. It most certainly includes all of them. That being said, no one is obligated to accept the veracity of a miracle performed after the apostolic period (even if it occurred prior to the schism), so to make this worship practice a requirement is something that lacks wisdom to say the least. In short, I agree with Wandile on this matter. It seems difficult to argue that the veneration of the Sacred Heart has some sort of crypto-Nestorian qualities to it, a topic which has been discussed in these forums before), when one considers the metaphysical, theological, and historical foundations that laid the basis for this practice.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:02:42 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 10:20:58 PM »
As I recall the problem with Lanciano, the only pre-schism Eucharistic miracle, is that only one doctor in modern times has ever examined their Host and he's a devout Catholic. Not saying he lied, but the whole "it's human cardiac tissue" thing would be a lot more convincing if more doctors of various backgrounds could confirm it.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2018, 12:40:56 PM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.


what.

It means what it says. The council of Ephesus and Trent.

Quote
Quote
This is your opinion. Nothing more. Please spare us this absolutism with which you speak. Ask the people whose faith has benefited by a all these devotions. If you don’t like them fine but please don’t speak absolutely about the effects of the devotion because their popularity already destroys your statements truthfulness.

To quote Pope Pius IX from his "Syllabus of Errors" (that is, his collections of ideas that are heretical to Roman Catholicism)

"Authority is nothing else but numbers and the sum total of material forces."

Also, by your logic of finding truth from popularity, we should all be Muslim due to its growth rate.

I’m not finding truth from popularity but disproving the false statement that these devotions impoverished the faith when ,in fact, the evidence of it increasing faith in believers of the apostolic faith is so abundantly evident that the statement is shown to be completely false.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:43:11 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 12:47:21 PM »
And thus was justification for divine foot fetishes born...

(if you say otherwise you don't have a proper theological appreciation for Christ assuming and transforming the WHOLE man, and how EVERYTHING he did was of supreme importance)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:49:32 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2018, 03:28:34 PM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.


what.

It means what it says. The council of Ephesus and Trent.


The Eucharistic flesh is actually Jesus Christ's heart alone because the heart is hypostatically united to the Divinity and humanity of Christ.
How does this follow?

Also, the Orthodox don't accept Trent, especially in a significant portion of its doctrinal formulations.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:33:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2018, 07:35:37 PM »
The soul does not have a particular location, especially if we are going to speak about the matter in classical or medieval terms. So the argument - that veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus does not include the soul and divinity of Christ (although it includes the body and blood of Christ) and therefore is not akin to the veneration of the Eucharist - is not something that follows from the Catholic/Latin practice. It most certainly includes all of them. That being said, no one is obligated to accept the veracity of a miracle performed after the apostolic period (even if it occurred prior to the schism), so to make this worship practice a requirement is something that lacks wisdom to say the least. In short, I agree with Wandile on this matter. It seems difficult to argue that the veneration of the Sacred Heart has some sort of crypto-Nestorian qualities to it, a topic which has been discussed in these forums before), when one considers the metaphysical, theological, and historical foundations that laid the basis for this practice.

Nestorius said "Because of the wearer I venerate the worn, because of the invisible one I worship the visible one." This specific reasoning Saint Cyril of Alexandria specifically condemned. We worship the whole of Christ in His Divinity and His humanity.

How is the Sacred Heart not the singling out of a single human aspect of Christ for adoration alone? Tell me, was His heart uncreated?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:36:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2018, 01:34:36 AM »
The soul does not have a particular location, especially if we are going to speak about the matter in classical or medieval terms. So the argument - that veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus does not include the soul and divinity of Christ (although it includes the body and blood of Christ) and therefore is not akin to the veneration of the Eucharist - is not something that follows from the Catholic/Latin practice. It most certainly includes all of them. That being said, no one is obligated to accept the veracity of a miracle performed after the apostolic period (even if it occurred prior to the schism), so to make this worship practice a requirement is something that lacks wisdom to say the least. In short, I agree with Wandile on this matter. It seems difficult to argue that the veneration of the Sacred Heart has some sort of crypto-Nestorian qualities to it, a topic which has been discussed in these forums before), when one considers the metaphysical, theological, and historical foundations that laid the basis for this practice.

Nestorius said "Because of the wearer I venerate the worn, because of the invisible one I worship the visible one." This specific reasoning Saint Cyril of Alexandria specifically condemned. We worship the whole of Christ in His Divinity and His humanity.

How is the Sacred Heart not the singling out of a single human aspect of Christ for adoration alone? Tell me, was His heart uncreated?

The heart is 100% divine and 100% human and all of what those entail in an unconfused manner. And as I have alluded to before, the heart contains the soul just as much as the entire physical body precisely because the soul does not have location. Therefore, the Sacred Heart lacks nothing of what is human, nor does it lack anything that is divine. This is the mystery of the hypostatic union at work in the Sacred Heart.
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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2018, 01:48:42 AM »
The soul does not have a particular location, especially if we are going to speak about the matter in classical or medieval terms. So the argument - that veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus does not include the soul and divinity of Christ (although it includes the body and blood of Christ) and therefore is not akin to the veneration of the Eucharist - is not something that follows from the Catholic/Latin practice. It most certainly includes all of them. That being said, no one is obligated to accept the veracity of a miracle performed after the apostolic period (even if it occurred prior to the schism), so to make this worship practice a requirement is something that lacks wisdom to say the least. In short, I agree with Wandile on this matter. It seems difficult to argue that the veneration of the Sacred Heart has some sort of crypto-Nestorian qualities to it, a topic which has been discussed in these forums before), when one considers the metaphysical, theological, and historical foundations that laid the basis for this practice.

Nestorius said "Because of the wearer I venerate the worn, because of the invisible one I worship the visible one." This specific reasoning Saint Cyril of Alexandria specifically condemned. We worship the whole of Christ in His Divinity and His humanity.

How is the Sacred Heart not the singling out of a single human aspect of Christ for adoration alone? Tell me, was His heart uncreated?

The heart is 100% divine and 100% human and all of what those entail in an unconfused manner. And as I have alluded to before, the heart contains the soul just as much as the entire physical body precisely because the soul does not have location. Therefore, the Sacred Heart lacks nothing of what is human, nor does it lack anything that is divine. This is the mystery of the hypostatic union at work in the Sacred Heart.

Allow me to be more clear;

My argument is the not the actual fact of whether or not Christ's Divinity is connected to His heart, but the mere practice of making the heart - a human organ, completely separating it from Christ - something worthy of adoration seems dangerous.

Isn't the Divine Liturgy supposed to be reminiscent of Heaven? Why would we specifically pray to Christ's heart - and not Christ Himself?

Sure, you can say that "this is Christ's heart", but why would I adore - prostrating on my knees - before His heart as if it's a separate entity? If you met Christ in Heaven, would get on your knees and bow down to Christ's chest area? Why would I talk to a Divinized organ in Christ's chest area? Is it sentient?

"O most holy heart of Jesus, fountain of every blessing, I adore you, I love you, and with lively sorrow for my sins I offer you this poor heart of mine. Make me humble, patient, pure and wholly obedient to your will."

"Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to it be glory and honor for ever."

But then you argue that you wouldn't, the heart would be separate from Christ - and what do you know, you are separating the heart from Christ Himself.

Some may then bring up the argument that it represents the Divine Love of Christ, but most devotions say otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 01:49:52 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2018, 02:00:36 AM »
The soul does not have a particular location, especially if we are going to speak about the matter in classical or medieval terms. So the argument - that veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus does not include the soul and divinity of Christ (although it includes the body and blood of Christ) and therefore is not akin to the veneration of the Eucharist - is not something that follows from the Catholic/Latin practice. It most certainly includes all of them. That being said, no one is obligated to accept the veracity of a miracle performed after the apostolic period (even if it occurred prior to the schism), so to make this worship practice a requirement is something that lacks wisdom to say the least. In short, I agree with Wandile on this matter. It seems difficult to argue that the veneration of the Sacred Heart has some sort of crypto-Nestorian qualities to it, a topic which has been discussed in these forums before), when one considers the metaphysical, theological, and historical foundations that laid the basis for this practice.

Nestorius said "Because of the wearer I venerate the worn, because of the invisible one I worship the visible one." This specific reasoning Saint Cyril of Alexandria specifically condemned. We worship the whole of Christ in His Divinity and His humanity.

How is the Sacred Heart not the singling out of a single human aspect of Christ for adoration alone? Tell me, was His heart uncreated?

The heart is 100% divine and 100% human and all of what those entail in an unconfused manner. And as I have alluded to before, the heart contains the soul just as much as the entire physical body precisely because the soul does not have location. Therefore, the Sacred Heart lacks nothing of what is human, nor does it lack anything that is divine. This is the mystery of the hypostatic union at work in the Sacred Heart.

Allow me to be more clear;

My argument is the not the actual fact of whether or not Christ's Divinity is connected to His heart, but the mere practice of making the heart - a human organ, completely separating it from Christ - something worthy of adoration seems dangerous.

Isn't the Divine Liturgy supposed to be reminiscent of Heaven? Why would we specifically pray to Christ's heart - and not Christ Himself?

Sure, you can say that "this is Christ's heart", but why would I adore - prostrating on my knees - before His heart as if it's a separate entity? If you met Christ in Heaven, would get on your knees and bow down to Christ's chest area? Why would I talk to a Divinized organ in Christ's chest area? Is it sentient?

"O most holy heart of Jesus, fountain of every blessing, I adore you, I love you, and with lively sorrow for my sins I offer you this poor heart of mine. Make me humble, patient, pure and wholly obedient to your will."

"Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to it be glory and honor for ever."

But then you argue that you wouldn't, the heart would be separate from Christ - and what do you know, you are separating the heart from Christ Himself.

Some may then bring up the argument that it represents the Divine Love of Christ, but most devotions say otherwise.

The Sacred Heart is Christ. It possesses the fullness of both of his natures and the fullness of his person.
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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 02:32:32 AM »
I wonder. Could an Imiaslav say the same thing about their views? "The name of God contains the fullness of His nature," or some such?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:33:32 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 05:33:36 AM »
I wonder. Could an Imiaslav say the same thing about their views? "The name of God contains the fullness of His nature," or some such?

Ive never been able to grasp concisely the views of the Imiaslavie; their theology seems self-referential to the point of obscurity.  So even if they did make such an utterance, I would still have no idea what their point was.
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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 06:04:30 AM »
I wonder. Could an Imiaslav say the same thing about their views? "The name of God contains the fullness of His nature," or some such?

Ive never been able to grasp concisely the views of the Imiaslavie; their theology seems self-referential to the point of obscurity.  So even if they did make such an utterance, I would still have no idea what their point was.

I think it's something like- the word "Jesus" is not just a couple of phonemes or a Sassurean sign, but an eternal mystical vessel of God's very being. It's the literal word that in the beginning was with God and was God.

So, I guess you can just write "Jesus" on a Post-It note and pray to that.

I don't know how that can possibly be true of five letters/two phonemes, but then again I also don't know how the laws of the universe can also be a Person and other Christian philosophical definitions.

Though wikipedia says there were quite a few Imiaslav mathematicians in Russia that tried to figure what numbers and equations were also literally God, so maybe I'm oversimplifying...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 02:06:35 PM »
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.
We worship the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ.  Why just His heart, a part of His?  One cannot tell the person from an organ.  Veneration, yes, I dare say, but I hesitate to encourage worship.  Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to have support among the Fathers.  But I may be wrong about it. 

Quote from: Wandile
It’s one thing to ignore the devotion it’s another to reject it as heretical.

This is your opinion. Nothing more. Please spare us this absolutism with which you speak. Ask the people whose faith has benefited by a all these devotions. If you don’t like them fine but please don’t speak absolutely about the effects of the devotion because their popularity already destroys your statements truthfulness.
Quoting myself:

A devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a fine subject of reflection and prayer for a Latin Catholic.

The Sacred Heart is Christ. It possesses the fullness of both of his natures and the fullness of his person.
Can you please explain this statement?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2018, 05:15:18 AM »
Sharbel, If (1) in the Holy Eucharist the Flesh of Christ is from His Heart, as the 1st century miracle of Lanciano shows and...
Stop there!  Firstly, the Holy Eucharist is the "body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ" (CCC §1374).  In other words, the Blessed Sacrament is the whole Christ, bodily and spiritually. Secondly, Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the apostle St. John.  No miracles, nor apparitions, nor private revelations add to the deposit of faith, especially if it contradicts what the Church has always taught.  Thirdly, the miracle of Lanciano took place in the 8th century.

Yet the doctrine of the real presence is apostolic. To deny the worship of the heart of Christ but accept the worship of the Eucharist is contradictory beyond belief. You can’t justify one without the other for they both follow the same theology as their foundation. The hypostatic union.


what.

It means what it says. The council of Ephesus and Trent.


The Eucharistic flesh is actually Jesus Christ's heart alone because the heart is hypostatically united to the Divinity and humanity of Christ.
How does this follow?
Oh I see what you’re saying. It appears we are speaking past each other. I’m not justifying that thenuechatist is he heart of Christ. Just that the Scared heart devotion is valid because Eucharistic worship is valid. They both rest upon the hypostatic union.

Quote
Also, the Orthodox don't accept Trent, especially in a significant portion of its doctrinal formulations.


 I referenced trend to make clear our teaching on the Eucharist and the real presence.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 05:16:01 AM by Wandile »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: The Sacred Heart and the Holy Eucharist
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2018, 03:48:02 PM »
The Sacred Heart thing..... I guess its a western belief..... ok