Author Topic: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?  (Read 9274 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #270 on: March 24, 2018, 05:22:12 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.


Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
Yes I agree. Where are the dead now? Do they have consciousness?  If they dont than im praying to a bunch of  saints that dont exist.

They are in Paradise. And of course they are conscious. Do you think praying to the Saints is something new or random?
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #271 on: March 24, 2018, 05:25:37 PM »
Then why are relics woven into the altar thingies?
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #272 on: March 24, 2018, 05:34:44 PM »
Then why are relics woven into the altar thingies?
Thats the body they will redeem.  Its waiting for when christ resserects everyone.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #273 on: March 24, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.


Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
Yes I agree. Where are the dead now? Do they have consciousness?  If they dont than im praying to a bunch of  saints that dont exist.

They are in Paradise. And of course they are conscious. Do you think praying to the Saints is something new or random?
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

Nope. In fact, as a bit of an aside, St. Paul even just said (upthread) that the body had to come first for there to be a spirit ... Stop making all these artificial divisions of man and (earlier) God. Learn what the Fathers have taught. Entrust yourself to the Church. I really don't understand the attraction for you in posting so variably and promiscuously ...

Then why are relics woven into the altar thingies?
Thats the body they will redeem.  Its waiting for when christ resserects everyone.

You're not wrong, but you're not right. The virtue of the Saint inheres in her relics. Learn from what the Church does.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #274 on: March 24, 2018, 06:02:02 PM »
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #275 on: March 24, 2018, 06:02:51 PM »
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.

Then learn from your living.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #276 on: March 24, 2018, 06:19:18 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.


Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
Yes I agree. Where are the dead now? Do they have consciousness?  If they dont than im praying to a bunch of  saints that dont exist.

They are in Paradise. And of course they are conscious. Do you think praying to the Saints is something new or random?
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

Right, but that doesn't mean the body is not part of one's person. The Saints are with God in Paradise right now and they are conscious. But they're still incomplete since they have their bodies.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #277 on: March 24, 2018, 07:05:06 PM »
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

There are no human persons without human bodies. That the saints can be said to be elsewhere – if such a thing can indeed be said – does not mean that they are no longer embodied here, that they do not tangibly exist before our eyes even beyond the point of death. When their flesh and bone has dissipated and we can no longer readily locate them, still their persistence in our own reality does not cease. The saints rest in their bodies even as they greet one another in the Bosom of Abraham. The resurrection of the dead will return them to their proper state, as the Lord had fashioned them in the beginning, and will make them greater still.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #278 on: March 24, 2018, 07:13:39 PM »
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

There are no human persons without human bodies. That the saints can be said to be elsewhere – if such a thing can indeed be said – does not mean that they are no longer embodied here, that they do not tangibly exist before our eyes even beyond the point of death. When their flesh and bone has dissipated and we can no longer readily locate them, still their persistence in our own reality does not cease. The saints rest in their bodies even as they greet one another in the Bosom of Abraham. The resurrection of the dead will return them to their proper state, as the Lord had fashioned them in the beginning, and will make them greater still.

Interesting way to look at things. I wonder if it could be said to be occurring in a way similar to Christ's Body being everywhere at once in the Eucharist (though obviously not in the same way since the bodies of the Saints are not resurrected bodies yet (from our temporal point of view).
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #279 on: March 24, 2018, 07:15:32 PM »
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

There are no human persons without human bodies. That the saints can be said to be elsewhere – if such a thing can indeed be said – does not mean that they are no longer embodied here, that they do not tangibly exist before our eyes even beyond the point of death. When their flesh and bone has dissipated and we can no longer readily locate them, still their persistence in our own reality does not cease. The saints rest in their bodies even as they greet one another in the Bosom of Abraham. The resurrection of the dead will return them to their proper state, as the Lord had fashioned them in the beginning, and will make them greater still.

Interesting way to look at things. I wonder if it could be said to be occurring in a way similar to Christ's Body being everywhere at once in the Eucharist (though obviously not in the same way since the bodies of the Saints are not resurrected bodies yet (from our temporal point of view).

I don't know if the Presence in the Gifts is a factor of Christ's resurrection.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #280 on: March 24, 2018, 07:38:36 PM »
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's

There are no human persons without human bodies. That the saints can be said to be elsewhere – if such a thing can indeed be said – does not mean that they are no longer embodied here, that they do not tangibly exist before our eyes even beyond the point of death. When their flesh and bone has dissipated and we can no longer readily locate them, still their persistence in our own reality does not cease. The saints rest in their bodies even as they greet one another in the Bosom of Abraham. The resurrection of the dead will return them to their proper state, as the Lord had fashioned them in the beginning, and will make them greater still.

Interesting way to look at things. I wonder if it could be said to be occurring in a way similar to Christ's Body being everywhere at once in the Eucharist (though obviously not in the same way since the bodies of the Saints are not resurrected bodies yet (from our temporal point of view).

I don't know if the Presence in the Gifts is a factor of Christ's resurrection.

Yeah, maybe.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline NJC

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #281 on: April 08, 2018, 10:23:12 PM »
If I may add a little, since my name was mentioned...

I am 100% committed to mission. I want to see the UK experience an Orthodox renewal and revival. I am excited to be a priest of the Coptic Orthodox Church at this time, because I believe we are on the edge of a great move of God.

I am well aware of all the problems within the Coptic Orthodox Church, more than most lay people. But these are the problems of life and not death. I enjoy worshipping and serving in communities that have many young people and children, and now the Coptic Orthodox Church is starting to ordain and consecrate Western born, or Western brought up, young men as priests and even bishops. And many of these young men are serious, spiritual and patristically minded. Some of them have been my friends for 10 or 15 years.

I believe that the Coptic Orthodox spiritual tradition is accessible to Western people - including our own youth, but there is a need for our worship to be presented in the Western languages as a matter of course. This does not preclude some Coptic or Arabic, but the majority needs to be in the local Western languages.

There is also a need for the chant to be done more slowly, prayerfully and reverently, and again in a majority Western language. I often have people come up to me when I have been doing some locum priesting work, and say that my celebration in English was the first time they had understood the Liturgy properly. That can't be good for mission, or for the care of converts, or mixed marriages, or our youth and children.

When chant is done badly it is ugly, but that would be the case anywhere. It does not need to be done in that way. I pray the Midnight Praises most Saturdays in the smaller Coptic Orthodox Church I serve as part of a team over several congregations, and there might be 10 of us. We pray antiphonally in English and Arabic only, and it feels to me just like members of a Christian family praying and praising together. I could easily imagine other British people joining our worship.

Of course there is a cultural component to everything we do, but I don't have a problem with the liturgical culture, or even the chant done attractively in (mostly) English. The social culture is what it is. We have to be generous while also being aware that some aspects of the social culture are not essentially Christian, and that there are other social cultures present in a mixed community.

The place where I pray celebrates its first anniversary in the building we now call home. And we are determined to be outward looking and service and mission oriented from the beginning. We have a treasure of prayer and spirituality that is Good News. As long as we present this treasure in the local languages, and with care and reverence, then I believe it has great scope as a missionary message. I hope to start an open Study Group soon, and will be beginning a series of open illustrated Lectures on our faith this month. We have lots of project ideas we are working on and I a very excited. God is at work.

Of course I do know fully Arabic congregations, who are not able to think in such a way yet. But the very presence of so many young people speaking English as their first language, and considering the UK as their home, means that we are now increasingly required to think in a different way.

I have had to consider where my service and future belongs several times in my life. But now, as a priest of Anba Misael in the Diocese of the Midlands, I believe I have found a lasting home where I hope to serve all those days that God grants me.

Hi Abouna Peter,

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to address this post, and get this thread back on topic. I have been doing a lot of thinking, and have become more and more familiar with Coptic chanting, and tend to agree with you. I do think the Coptic liturgy, prayer services and chanting can be translated well in to English, and when performed well with reverence can be beautiful. I am still (currently) a member of the Greek Orthodox church and they are struggling with some lay chanters at the Monastery i go to... all i can say is that Holy Week was difficult due to the poor quality of the Byzantine chant. It was embarassing it was so bad. So that just goes to show that even something so refined and grand as Byzantine chant, if not done well, is terrible.

I also see many great signs of evangelisation in the Coptic Orthodox church. I think there is something perculiar to the Coptic church, probably as a result of their history of martyrdom, that gives the Coptic people a special ability to be good evangelists. By the way, have you seen this article?

https://www.copticsolidarity.org/2018/03/31/the-americanization-of-an-ancient-faith/

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #282 on: May 23, 2018, 09:33:04 AM »
Will you be received without chrismation ?
No, i would be required to be Chrismated, which is the only catch. Abouna has stated he doesn't agree with it but that is how it is at the moment. For the next few weeks i'll go to the Coptic church exclusively and see how i feel in my heart about this. If i feel at peace, then i will be Chrismated. This is the advice of my spiritual father from the Greek Orthodox Monastery.

That sounds odd, given the agreement between the Coptic and Greek Patriarchates of Alexandria.   I am sure the Syriac Orthodox would receice you by confession, at least, based on my experiences.   The Coptic Church likes to rebaptize Catholics and others who would merely be chrismated elsewhere, in that respect they are a bit strict. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #283 on: May 23, 2018, 10:56:00 AM »
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.

Eh, what?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #284 on: May 23, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.

Vlad Dracul, is that you?

"I have crossed oceans of time to post here."
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:08:06 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #285 on: May 23, 2018, 11:28:29 AM »
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.

Vlad Dracul, is that you?

"I have crossed oceans of time to post here."

My pulse quickens whenever I am blessed to behold the exquisite beauty of your unimpeachable and imperishable wit!   ;D 

Truly you are The Trisagion to my Mor Ephrem, to the extent I have a Mor Ephrem, which, alas, is exceedingly limited.   :-[

——

(Btw on a more serious note I am praying for TheTrisagion and AntoniousNikolaus as they havent been around lately, and I am worried for them).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:29:33 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #286 on: May 23, 2018, 11:35:22 AM »
You're scaring me, dude. But OK.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline jah777

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #287 on: May 23, 2018, 11:46:59 AM »
I believe both church's can lead a man to God, but that some people are better suited to particular jurisdictions/churches depending on their nature.

That's a legitimate opinion and whatever suits you but that hardly corresponds to neither EO or OO ecclesiology.

Even Elder Joseph the Hesychast found himself coming to accept a similar position which didn't neatly correspond to textbook ecclesiology but which was nevertheless revealed to him to be true. 

Stuff happens.

What exactly are you claiming about Elder Joseph's change in position?