Author Topic: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?  (Read 9818 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #225 on: March 21, 2018, 09:12:29 PM »
Yea, you're fine.  I think the gist of what you need to know is what you already have.  If you're like me, I would just get overly complicated over many things into order to understand what went wrong.  (even the word "person" has its issues and nuances, and meanings of that word changed overtime).
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #226 on: March 21, 2018, 09:29:50 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.

I think that eventually, hypostasis morphed into meaning "person" sometime in the late 6th, early 7th century.  But before that, there was a certain nuance in the term, which pretty much meant a unit of concrete existence.  It did not necessarily mean "person", but it could sometimes be seen as that way.
Ok, I see (I hope)! 

For what it's worth, both my own notes and my catechism materials use "nature" and "essence" interchangeably (humanness vs. Godness), and then "person" to refer to what I guess would have been hypostasis in Greek (Persons of the Trinity, Person of Christ).  To me, the underlying concept and understanding sounds the exact same as what y'all are saying.  As much as I can comprehend any of it, anyway.   :D

I'm curious when I see folks referring to Orthodox catechisms (somebody did just yesterday in another thread) but don't give the name. Which book was it?
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #227 on: March 21, 2018, 10:00:41 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.

I think that eventually, hypostasis morphed into meaning "person" sometime in the late 6th, early 7th century.  But before that, there was a certain nuance in the term, which pretty much meant a unit of concrete existence.  It did not necessarily mean "person", but it could sometimes be seen as that way.
Ok, I see (I hope)! 

For what it's worth, both my own notes and my catechism materials use "nature" and "essence" interchangeably (humanness vs. Godness), and then "person" to refer to what I guess would have been hypostasis in Greek (Persons of the Trinity, Person of Christ).  To me, the underlying concept and understanding sounds the exact same as what y'all are saying.  As much as I can comprehend any of it, anyway.   :D

I'm curious when I see folks referring to Orthodox catechisms (somebody did just yesterday in another thread) but don't give the name. Which book was it?

This was material written by Fr. Sparks (I don't know if it was originally a book).  Plus notes I took on the discussion/explanation of the topic.  And though irrelevant to the thread topic, there was a separate book that explanation of the services were pulled from.  And then a booklet of the Church's precepts.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #228 on: March 22, 2018, 07:29:04 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #229 on: March 22, 2018, 07:33:19 PM »
Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.

Astounding.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #230 on: March 23, 2018, 04:02:25 AM »
The full and complete and perfect humanity of Christ does have a person. But it is the hypostasis of the Word of God. It does not have another person since it does not exist for itself but for the Word whose humanity it is.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #231 on: March 23, 2018, 10:00:52 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #232 on: March 23, 2018, 10:09:40 AM »
The full and complete and perfect humanity of Christ does have a person. But it is the hypostasis of the Word of God. It does not have another person since it does not exist for itself but for the Word whose humanity it is.

This is very orthodox father. I don't believe we have an issues with christology. The point I made that I didn't like in you article you posted. Was referring to human nature. Human nature and essence in man cant be synonymous. For the reason I stated above. It is in Christ though, In Christology. That is what I stated many pages ago.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #233 on: March 23, 2018, 10:26:09 AM »
The full and complete and perfect humanity of Christ does have a person. But it is the hypostasis of the Word of God. It does not have another person since it does not exist for itself but for the Word whose humanity it is.

This is very orthodox father. I don't believe we have an issues with christology. The point I made that I didn't like in you article you posted. Was referring to human nature. Human nature and essence in man cant be synonymous. For the reason I stated above. It is in Christ though, In Christology. That is what I stated many pages ago.

Physis (nature) and ousia (essence) are treated as synonymous by John Damascene and other (Chalcedonian) orthodox fathers.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #234 on: March 23, 2018, 10:29:02 AM »
The full and complete and perfect humanity of Christ does have a person. But it is the hypostasis of the Word of God. It does not have another person since it does not exist for itself but for the Word whose humanity it is.

This is very orthodox father. I don't believe we have an issues with christology. The point I made that I didn't like in you article you posted. Was referring to human nature. Human nature and essence in man cant be synonymous. For the reason I stated above. It is in Christ though, In Christology. That is what I stated many pages ago.

Physis (nature) and ousia (essence) are treated as synonymous by John Damascene and other (Chalcedonian) orthodox fathers.
Yes, In Christology. Not in Anthropology.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #235 on: March 23, 2018, 10:34:21 AM »
There is no anthropology separate from Christology. Come on, man, just admit that you're making this up as you go.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #236 on: March 23, 2018, 12:29:45 PM »
There is no anthropology separate from Christology. Come on, man, just admit that you're making this up as you go.
You seem to be making blanket statements. I said I agree with fathers Christology.  Thats not my point of contention.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #237 on: March 23, 2018, 12:42:25 PM »
There is no anthropology separate from Christology. Come on, man, just admit that you're making this up as you go.
You seem to be making blanket statements. I said I agree with fathers Christology.  Thats not my point of contention.

Your contention arose in response to an article on Christology by Father Peter. Now you admit that the terms essence and nature can be used synonymously in Christology. That seems to put this rather useless thread derailment to an end.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #238 on: March 23, 2018, 12:50:53 PM »
There is no anthropology separate from Christology. Come on, man, just admit that you're making this up as you go.
You seem to be making blanket statements. I said I agree with fathers Christology.  Thats not my point of contention.

Your contention arose in response to an article on Christology by Father Peter. Now you admit that the terms essence and nature can be used synonymously in Christology. That seems to put this rather useless thread derailment to an end.
Why don't you let father Peter respond.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #239 on: March 23, 2018, 01:12:45 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.

No.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #240 on: March 23, 2018, 02:37:08 PM »
I mean, you've seemingly gone from pseudo-Trinitarian to straight-up Gnostic. You might want to get that looked at.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #241 on: March 23, 2018, 03:56:14 PM »
Be careful what you say here because  you are contridicting Christ.

John 3:5-6 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #242 on: March 23, 2018, 05:34:26 PM »
Be careful what you say here because  you are contridicting Christ.

John 3:5-6 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

As He said elsewhere, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #243 on: March 23, 2018, 06:37:10 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #244 on: March 23, 2018, 07:23:15 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #245 on: March 23, 2018, 07:58:28 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

Again you seem to be struggling with basic clarity of thought, if I may say so. We are baptized into a spiritual life -- that is, ourselves, including our bodies, are baptized into a spiritual way of life. At the resurrection, our bodies are glorified -- this is why it is called the resurrection. To repeat a different way if you prefer, we are given glorified bodies (St. Paul's term) at the resurrection.

As for this latest thing of which you are "sure," that Christ is spiritual (and, yes, I'm going to hold you to that meaning, altho in this particular post you do say "spiritual body" [whatever that could mean], since in the posts foregoing this one you were specific that we lose our flesh):

Quote
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 07:59:25 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #246 on: March 23, 2018, 08:25:35 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

See, when I hear the words "spiritual body," my first thought is the Hindu/Sufi/occult notion of "subtle bodies," which are basically ghostly and mental. Supposedly you have a subtle body under your skin right now and it's more "real" than your fleshly body.

That doesn't apply to Christ in any way. His resurrected body has miraculous properties, yes. But as per the Scripture that Porter put up, He still has "flesh and bone" and is not "a spirit."
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #247 on: March 23, 2018, 09:00:03 PM »
However one interprets the Revelation, I like to envision the glorified Christ as described there:

Quote
I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw ... one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot and girt about the paps with a golden girdle; his head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #248 on: March 23, 2018, 10:02:16 PM »
I remember reading somewhere on the internet some atheist claiming that "girt about the paps" means the writer of Revelation thought that Jesus had breasts.
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #249 on: March 23, 2018, 10:09:36 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

See, when I hear the words "spiritual body," my first thought is the Hindu/Sufi/occult notion of "subtle bodies," which are basically ghostly and mental. Supposedly you have a subtle body under your skin right now and it's more "real" than your fleshly body.

That doesn't apply to Christ in any way. His resurrected body has miraculous properties, yes. But as per the Scripture that Porter put up, He still has "flesh and bone" and is not "a spirit."

Well scripture tells us its a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #250 on: March 23, 2018, 10:41:47 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

Again you seem to be struggling with basic clarity of thought, if I may say so. We are baptized into a spiritual life -- that is, ourselves, including our bodies, are baptized into a spiritual way of life. At the resurrection, our bodies are glorified -- this is why it is called the resurrection. To repeat a different way if you prefer, we are given glorified bodies (St. Paul's term) at the resurrection.

As for this latest thing of which you are "sure," that Christ is spiritual (and, yes, I'm going to hold you to that meaning, altho in this particular post you do say "spiritual body" [whatever that could mean], since in the posts foregoing this one you were specific that we lose our flesh):

Quote
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Sure, but there is also a death at baptism. What you are saying is protestant reformer stuff.
Romans 6:3-8

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #251 on: March 23, 2018, 11:26:55 PM »
It's a body powered by your spirit, not your flesh.  That's what "pneumatikos" means.  It's like saying the tv is electrifried; that doesn't mean the tv stopped becoming plastic and wires.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #252 on: March 24, 2018, 12:17:10 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

Again you seem to be struggling with basic clarity of thought, if I may say so. We are baptized into a spiritual life -- that is, ourselves, including our bodies, are baptized into a spiritual way of life. At the resurrection, our bodies are glorified -- this is why it is called the resurrection. To repeat a different way if you prefer, we are given glorified bodies (St. Paul's term) at the resurrection.

As for this latest thing of which you are "sure," that Christ is spiritual (and, yes, I'm going to hold you to that meaning, altho in this particular post you do say "spiritual body" [whatever that could mean], since in the posts foregoing this one you were specific that we lose our flesh):

Quote
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Sure, but there is also a death at baptism. What you are saying is protestant reformer stuff.
Romans 6:3-8

Uh, no. It's really not. How is anything he wrote "Protestant?"

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

You're torturing the context of that verse. The two verses right before it (emphasis mine):

Quote
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

And the verses after, including 3:8

Quote
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

It's about dying to sin/the flesh, not dying simpliciter. Paul's entire point in writing this was to remind the Romans of the incongruity of continuing to sin once they have participated in Christ's death through baptism. It has nothing to do with some imagined lack of physicality in the resurrected state.


As for your question to me, Mina answered it pretty well.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 12:20:38 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #253 on: March 24, 2018, 01:11:25 AM »
It's a body powered by your spirit, not your flesh.  That's what "pneumatikos" means.  It's like saying the tv is electrifried; that doesn't mean the tv stopped becoming plastic and wires.
Oh, this is good analogy.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #254 on: March 24, 2018, 01:15:02 AM »
I remember reading somewhere on the internet some atheist claiming that "girt about the paps" means the writer of Revelation thought that Jesus had breasts.

Was the atheist's idea that a resurrected being would have no need of breasts?
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #255 on: March 24, 2018, 01:16:35 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

Again you seem to be struggling with basic clarity of thought, if I may say so. We are baptized into a spiritual life -- that is, ourselves, including our bodies, are baptized into a spiritual way of life. At the resurrection, our bodies are glorified -- this is why it is called the resurrection. To repeat a different way if you prefer, we are given glorified bodies (St. Paul's term) at the resurrection.

As for this latest thing of which you are "sure," that Christ is spiritual (and, yes, I'm going to hold you to that meaning, altho in this particular post you do say "spiritual body" [whatever that could mean], since in the posts foregoing this one you were specific that we lose our flesh):

Quote
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Sure, but there is also a death at baptism. What you are saying is protestant reformer stuff.
Romans 6:3-8

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

What on earth? Are you making sense to yourself?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #256 on: March 24, 2018, 01:46:02 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

I said your views sounded like heresy, not that they definitely were. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.



Also, found this just now from a different thread. Italics mine.

.the fact some baptists think baptism isn't a sacrament should be alarming. Baptism is where we are literally made children of God

It depends on your theology. Some Baptists (and others) believe that baptism is an outward symbol or sign of what has already happened inwardly in the soul or spirit: the new birth has taken place through faith in Christ, and baptism publicly confesses that faith. This I too believe; indeed, all Baptists believe it. Others go further, who see baptism more sacramentally, but don't go as far as what you wrote ("we are literally made children of God"), and would never say that baptism brings about the new birth, but they do believe that a special grace flows spiritually with the sign, a confirming, strengthening, vivifying, establishing work of the Spirit in the act.

You say that a lack of sacramental theology "should be alarming", but - in my personal view - if a person holds the view that baptism is a sign, performed in obedience to Christ's command, of a work that has already been wrought inwardly, and doesn't know that sacramental grace comes with it, God will not withhold the spiritual blessing that flows in baptism on the ground that the person baptised lacks fuller theological understanding.

I take a similar view of the Lord's Supper - the housel. Personally I do believe that sacramental grace flows into us as we come to the Table in true penitence and faith, but I also believe that those who hold the 'bare memorial' (Zwinglian) view of the Supper are not deprived of the blessing of because their theology. But again, of course, we have no priests, so I would not expect you to agree.

People as we know them have a nature which we call human. While the spirit is a part of that nature. It isnt the full nature. So the body is also a part of it as well. We sin in the body, so our bodies need that cleansing as well. In fact most sins are perfomed in the body. So both body and soul are involved in the baptism and are in need of purification.
If what your stating is true than water which is an element of the earth would hold no value and a spiritual equivalent would have bin instituted.  But, we know that isnt true.  The human is two fold , spiritual with a human nature. Separating humanity in to just spirtuality is heresy.

Isn't the above exactly what I've been saying this whole time? It would also seem to contradict your claim that human nature is basically just meat.
Ok point taken.

Yes the body is intrinsically intertwined with the spirit in a way that can not be separated. Answer this question though? Aren't we called to put death to the body. Isn't that what baptism is? A new creation? The transfer to a Spiritual person. So while we start out one way. We migrate through baptism. That doesn't mean we leave our bodies behind. Yet that is. At the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies.


No, we don't leave them behind. We redeem them by submitting them to the Spirit of God (which is what Jesus was talking about in John 3). That's what a "spiritual body" is, not some phantasm. God doesn't want to destroy His physical creation, He wants to refine and reshape it.

Putting the flesh to death means learning not to be controlled by our bodily appetites.

Sure the old body is redeemed , but it becomes a spiritual body like Christ's at his resurrection.  Im sure we will look the same. Only perfected.

See, when I hear the words "spiritual body," my first thought is the Hindu/Sufi/occult notion of "subtle bodies," which are basically ghostly and mental. Supposedly you have a subtle body under your skin right now and it's more "real" than your fleshly body.

That doesn't apply to Christ in any way. His resurrected body has miraculous properties, yes. But as per the Scripture that Porter put up, He still has "flesh and bone" and is not "a spirit."

Well scripture tells us its a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

St. Paul uses a lot of terms -- and I do mean a lot: dozens -- to characterize and prefigure the resurrection throughout the chapter, and here he is using "spiritual body" as a direct allusion to the scripture (which he quotes) "The first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit." He explains his purpose: "Note that what came first was not the 'spiritual,' but the 'natural' ...: The first man was of the earth, 'earthy'; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven." After which, for the rest of the paragraph he speaks of "earthy" versus "heavenly" bodies.

But to pick out your claim that we have no flesh in the next life from this chapter is madness. Please read the whole chapter, carefully. St. Paul's whole purpose here is to preach the bodily resurrection. To those who question the possibility of this, he says, "You fool!" -- don't you understand that "God gives the kind of body that pleases him" for each use? "All flesh is not the same flesh [even here on earth, he is saying], but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." Not every body in the heavens is of one kind, either, but some are suns, some planets, some differing kinds of stars. "So also is the resurrection of the dead." Which body he characterizes as "incorruptible," "glorious," "powerful," "heavenly," "changed," "immortal," and "victorious."

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
'Death is swallowed up in victory.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy victory?"

This mighty paean by which he ends the chapter leaves no doubt that we do not pass into the next Age a sterilized ghost.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #257 on: March 24, 2018, 04:19:25 AM »
I remember reading somewhere on the internet some atheist claiming that "girt about the paps" means the writer of Revelation thought that Jesus had breasts.

Was the atheist's idea that a resurrected being would have no need of breasts?

Not sure. I don't recall much of the context.

I think it was more along the lines of making Revelation out to be some wacky Gnostic drug trip.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #258 on: March 24, 2018, 08:03:37 AM »
I never said we aren't going to have bodies. You misconstrue my words. I said that our bodies will become more spiritual in nature. How that happens is a mystery . To try and explain it would be rather foolish.  The TV analogy is good Minas and it actually helps my argument.  The electricity is where the power comes from. It isnt build into its hardware and the seat of the person is no longer in the parts but is feed through the cable wire.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #259 on: March 24, 2018, 08:21:52 AM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities. 

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #260 on: March 24, 2018, 08:41:25 AM »
This thread is wildly off topic.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #261 on: March 24, 2018, 02:01:16 PM »
This thread is wildly off topic.

It might seem that way by now. The progress of thought was Jimmy claiming human nature is pure flesh, then that we begin to lose the flesh at baptism and won't have it in heaven. So apparently this is coming round to a doctrine that Christ put on "human nature" temporarily and is purely a spiritual being of one, divine nature now. And this is supposedly normal EO doctrine, by the way. God save us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #262 on: March 24, 2018, 02:06:44 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.

Until Judgment, the person's spirit is in an intermediate state.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #263 on: March 24, 2018, 02:48:00 PM »
I never said we aren't going to have bodies.

Okay, maybe you didn't. Your posts can be pretty scattered. Regardless, it's good we're all on the same page now.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #264 on: March 24, 2018, 02:54:50 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.

Until Judgment, the person's spirit is in an intermediate state.

More about this, from Scripture:

Quote from: St. Paul
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So we see the dead reunited with their bodies in resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. The whole passage (I The 4:13-18) is well worth reading on this subject.

Quote from: St. John the Revelator
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again we have the clear picture of the dead spirits being raised, with their bodies wherever those bodies were, to face the Judgment.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #265 on: March 24, 2018, 03:06:05 PM »
This thread is wildly off topic.

It might seem that way by now. The progress of thought was Jimmy claiming human nature is pure flesh, then that we begin to lose the flesh at baptism and won't have it in heaven. So apparently this is coming round to a doctrine that Christ put on "human nature" temporarily and is purely a spiritual being of one, divine nature now. And this is supposedly normal EO doctrine, by the way. God save us.

So what we have is a polemical discussion of the nature of Christ in a thread asking about converts from EO to OO in a folder for non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics. Where the Mods at?
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #266 on: March 24, 2018, 03:45:54 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.

Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #267 on: March 24, 2018, 05:01:05 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.


Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
Yes I agree. Where are the dead now? Do they have consciousness?  If they dont than im praying to a bunch of  saints that dont exist.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 05:02:35 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #268 on: March 24, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »


Just to reiterate. When a person dies and goes to heaven. Is the person in the ground in the lifeless body? No. You would be foolish to say that.  The person is in heaven just like those who have died before us. There spirit has moved on and the heart of there person is in there spirit and not there nature. Yes we will regain our pysical bodies as well but they will be transformed into a more spiritual state while at the sametime having pysical qualities.


Emphasis mine. I thought we agreed that the spirit is a part of human nature. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state because it's incomplete. We need our bodies to be fully human, that's why they're resurrected.
Yes I agree. Where are the dead now? Do they have consciousness?  If they dont than im praying to a bunch of  saints that dont exist.

They are in Paradise. And of course they are conscious. Do you think praying to the Saints is something new or random?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #269 on: March 24, 2018, 05:11:00 PM »
And St. Mary and the St. Angels (e.g. Michael) are already fully with the Father, if I'm not misremembering. But those are special cases. As a rule, we await the Judgment after we die. Those whom God in his mercy deems righteous, in a state of bliss we call Paradise.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy