Author Topic: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?  (Read 11553 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #180 on: March 20, 2018, 07:22:53 PM »
No way to know. Probably "in."

But I don't buy the "you are a soul that lives in a body" dualist line. Our bodies are an integral part of who we are. A disembodied spirit is in a debased state.

That's fine. That is how the fathers see and write about it in dogma though. Philosophically.

Why should there be a difference? Theology is a branch of philosophy.

That's correct. If you google Person, person-hood , persona. There are different concepts describing the same thing. There is no concrete definition. There are definitions from different sciences. Philosophy ascribes a different meaning to the naturalist. We are attempting to explain it with two different science and are crossing paths. The truth of it is that Person is a Mystery of god. The only thing we can do is work around the edges.

Agreed. Then why are you so insistent that the OO are confused in their terminology?
I didn't say that. They stopped at the two natures debate many centuries ago. There wording is confusing by the use of one nature. But I see that they have moved on to express a very similar understanding as us. even though the language used is questionable. I did see a mistake and pointed it out in fathers work. That essence and human nature cant be used synonymously. At least not Theologically.
The two natures debate is still ongoing. How can you conclude we stopped centuries ago? Do the Joint Commission talks not count for some unknown reason?

Why can you adjudicate that person has no concrete definition but rather multiple definitions from different philosophies, but somehow this can't apply essence and nature? Or more accurately OO theology does not have the privilege of such methodology.

Why can you apply "mystery of God" to Person but OO's can't apply the same "mystery of God" to essence and nature? How are you so sure that Person descriptions can fall under mystery but Essence and Nature cannot? If Essence and Nature can fall under mystery of God, how can you logically say they can't be used synonymously?

For the record, if OO wording is confusing by the use of nature and the language is questionable, why are Chalcedonians questioning you on your use of person and not on the OO wording of nature? No one has agreed with you that any OO terminology is "a mistake" and whatever you pointed out was not referenced with any of "the fathers work".  You are simply stating your opinion as fact. And the points of your opinion are not consistent.

I thought he was Protestant.
He who? Fr Peter? Volnutt? Me?

What does Protestantism have anything to do with the discussion?
Volnutt. That is what his religious affiliation states. Evangelical.  No

"Evangelical by default." It's an attempt to honestly admit my background (I was raised a somewhat lukewarm Assemblies of God Pentecostal, though I've been pretty much "generic Evangelical" for most of my adult life) and the assumptions that I tend to unwittingly bring to the table- and imo more informative than just saying "Inquirer into Orthodoxy". In terms of individual issues, I usually agree with the Orthodox POV to the sometimes imperfect extent that I understand it, with some notable exceptions which are the reasons I've not yet converted.

When it comes to Chalcedon and later, I'm agnostic with some OO sympathies. But, again, Chalcedonian by default due to my background.


I +1 the rest of Remnkemi's statements in Reply #164.
Its pretty cool that your here. Good conversation btw.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #181 on: March 20, 2018, 07:33:58 PM »
No, he's not. Your terminological confusion with regards to Christology is the sort of thing that led John Philoponus to assert tritheism.

To be fair, I haven't seen evidence his terminological confusion is in anyway limited to Christology.
That sound a lot like a compliment wrapped around an insult.

There's nothing inherently insulting about discussing the contents of your posts in a discussion thread. Over and over again your posts here have shown what seems to be a basic lack of understanding of terms as well as in my opinion a basic disregard for even the purposes that terms serve. It's hard to read statements such as "Human nature is shared with the rest of creation. Like the steak one puts on the grill"; or (in my paraphrase of a fairly long post) "Christ couldn't have been an individual or there'd be no individual salvation"; and take the rest of your contributions as in good faith.
And who are you? The authority on terminology?  Your making it sound like you are better. Without contributing a thing. Other than criticism.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #182 on: March 20, 2018, 07:44:52 PM »
No, he's not. Your terminological confusion with regards to Christology is the sort of thing that led John Philoponus to assert tritheism.

To be fair, I haven't seen evidence his terminological confusion is in anyway limited to Christology.
That sound a lot like a compliment wrapped around an insult.

There's nothing inherently insulting about discussing the contents of your posts in a discussion thread. Over and over again your posts here have shown what seems to be a basic lack of understanding of terms as well as in my opinion a basic disregard for even the purposes that terms serve. It's hard to read statements such as "Human nature is shared with the rest of creation. Like the steak one puts on the grill"; or (in my paraphrase of a fairly long post) "Christ couldn't have been an individual or there'd be no individual salvation"; and take the rest of your contributions as in good faith.
And who are you? The authority on terminology?  Your making it sound like you are better. Without contributing a thing. Other than criticism.

I don't think anybody needs to be an authority to correct the bulk of your posts here. As for my contributions, there are some, well upthread (such as when you were originally implying there's no such thing as human nature), but better men than I (both in knowledge and patience) have handled things quite well enough since.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #183 on: March 20, 2018, 08:04:32 PM »
I think we are done here! Egotism has no place other than to derail a good discussion and OO are sitting in the sidelines hoping you intervene.  None of them have confronted what i said . Play it safe like your dogma.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:16:52 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #184 on: March 20, 2018, 08:27:54 PM »
I think we are done here! Egotism has no place other than to derail a good discussion and OO are sitting in the sidelines hoping you intervene.  None of them have confronted what i said . Play it safe like your dogma.

I don't know who this is referring to specifically, but I'm sorry if I've come off as egotistical.

But I think you're pretty much ignoring the OOs who have already addressed your points- Fr. Peter, Mina, and Remnkemi.

You've also provided no proof that your insistence that "person" can be defined with a vagueness that "nature" cannot is terminologically correct and not just special pleading.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:28:33 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #185 on: March 20, 2018, 08:56:23 PM »
I think we are done here! Egotism has no place other than to derail a good discussion and OO are sitting in the sidelines hoping you intervene.  None of them have confronted what i said . Play it safe like your dogma.

I don't know who this is referring to specifically, but I'm sorry if I've come off as egotistical.


But I think you're pretty much ignoring the OOs who have already addressed your points- Fr. Peter, Mina, and Remnkemi.

You've also provided no proof that your insistence that "person" can be defined with a vagueness that "nature" cannot is terminologically correct and not just special pleading.
I didnt refer to you. Nature and essence have defined definitions. Person does as well, but im not getting into it here. Want to discuss the other two? Go for it.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #186 on: March 20, 2018, 09:18:55 PM »
Ok, but why aren't you getting into it here? IIRC you're the one who started this whole conversation when you called OO Christology "incomplete."

It's not good sportsmanship to start a debate and then try to only participate half-heartedly (especially when you just accused OO of waiting on the sidelines).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #187 on: March 21, 2018, 04:05:44 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #188 on: March 21, 2018, 05:22:03 AM »
Ok, but why aren't you getting into it here? IIRC you're the one who started this whole conversation when you called OO Christology "incomplete."

I started the conversation to see what they are about since I have no exposure to them in the outside world.
Quote
It's not good sportsmanship to start a debate and then try to only participate half-heartedly (especially when you just accused OO of waiting on the sidelines).

Its a self addmited reality on there part. They dont want to engage with a layman and I accept that with respect.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:23:28 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #189 on: March 21, 2018, 05:30:59 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
Thats like a low blow father. You dont want to engage thats fine. Fully repect you for it. I think that was unnecessary...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:35:20 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #190 on: March 21, 2018, 05:42:16 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
Thats like a low blow father. You dont want to engage thats fine. Fully repect you for it. I think that was unnecessary...

Saying that "you're using the wrong definition of person but I don't feel like actually explaining to you why I think that" is kind of a low blow.

Also, to be fair to Fr. Peter, your claim that our spirit is the seat of our personhood but is somehow also not part of human nature (which you see as being only physical) sounds kind of heterodox to everybody here, AFAICT. Since you dismissed a Fr. Georges Florovsky quote from me as not being dogmatic, it would be nice to see your own source on your beliefs being Orthodox.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:45:51 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #191 on: March 21, 2018, 05:44:21 AM »
Ok, but why aren't you getting into it here? IIRC you're the one who started this whole conversation when you called OO Christology "incomplete."

I started the conversation to see what they are about since I have no exposure to them in the outside world.
Quote
It's not good sportsmanship to start a debate and then try to only participate half-heartedly (especially when you just accused OO of waiting on the sidelines).

Its a self addmited reality on there part. They dont want to engage with a layman and I accept that with respect.

I don't think any OO have said that here.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #192 on: March 21, 2018, 07:50:42 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
Thats like a low blow father. You dont want to engage thats fine. Fully repect you for it. I think that was unnecessary...

Saying that "you're using the wrong definition of person but I don't feel like actually explaining to you why I think that" is kind of a low blow.

Also, to be fair to Fr. Peter, your claim that our spirit is the seat of our personhood but is somehow also not part of human nature (which you see as being only physical) sounds kind of heterodox to everybody here, AFAICT. Since you dismissed a Fr. Georges Florovsky quote from me as not being dogmatic, it would be nice to see your own source on your beliefs being Orthodox.

That's a Pelagius position. That's not exactly what I believe. You're western correct? Why does the RCC condemn both Spirit and Nature separately in there Dogma of original sin?
We are talking Christology. Not humanology. Christ preexisted as the logos. Being a spirit before taking on nature. is his personhood in the logos or in his human nature?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:01:49 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #193 on: March 21, 2018, 08:17:18 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
Thats like a low blow father. You dont want to engage thats fine. Fully repect you for it. I think that was unnecessary...

Saying that "you're using the wrong definition of person but I don't feel like actually explaining to you why I think that" is kind of a low blow.

Also, to be fair to Fr. Peter, your claim that our spirit is the seat of our personhood but is somehow also not part of human nature (which you see as being only physical) sounds kind of heterodox to everybody here, AFAICT. Since you dismissed a Fr. Georges Florovsky quote from me as not being dogmatic, it would be nice to see your own source on your beliefs being Orthodox.

That's a Pelagius position. That's not exactly what I believe.

Ok. My mistake.

You're western correct? Why does the RCC condemn both Spirit and Nature separately in there Dogma of original sin?

No idea. I didn't know the RCC even did.
 
We are talking Christology. Not humanology.

The word is anthropology.

Christ preexisted as the logos. Being a spirit before taking on nature. is his personhood in the logos or in his human nature?

Both and neither. His Personhood is His Personhood. It's "located" in the complete package.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:18:50 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #194 on: March 21, 2018, 08:19:58 AM »
I am not waiting on the sidelines. But I see nothing coherent to comment on further. What has been presented is certainly not EOxy, just a personal opinion. That's fine, but I am interested in OO-EO ecumenical dialogue, not OO-Personal Opinion dialogue here.
Thats like a low blow father. You dont want to engage thats fine. Fully repect you for it. I think that was unnecessary...

Saying that "you're using the wrong definition of person but I don't feel like actually explaining to you why I think that" is kind of a low blow.

Also, to be fair to Fr. Peter, your claim that our spirit is the seat of our personhood but is somehow also not part of human nature (which you see as being only physical) sounds kind of heterodox to everybody here, AFAICT. Since you dismissed a Fr. Georges Florovsky quote from me as not being dogmatic, it would be nice to see your own source on your beliefs being Orthodox.

That's a Pelagius position. That's not exactly what I believe.

Ok. My mistake.

You're western correct? Why does the RCC condemn both Spirit and Nature separately in there Dogma of original sin?

No idea. Is that even something that the RCC and the EOC would agree on?
 
We are talking Christology. Not humanology.

The word is anthropology.

Christ preexisted as the logos. Being a spirit before taking on nature. is his personhood in the logos or in his human nature?

Both and neither. His Personhood is His Personhood. It's "located" in the complete package.
That is not answering the question. He did preexist before taking on nature. At that time did he have personhood?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #195 on: March 21, 2018, 08:40:57 AM »
Yes, He was a Person beforehand. The Incarnation was not a change in the Word.

He incorporated human nature into Himself.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:42:22 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #196 on: March 21, 2018, 08:48:48 AM »
Yes, He was a Person beforehand. The Incarnation was not a change in the Word.

He incorporated human nature into Himself.
I'm glad we established that. Now lets move on. Did a person exist in the nature he took on as well?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #197 on: March 21, 2018, 09:00:59 AM »
Yes, He was a Person beforehand. The Incarnation was not a change in the Word.

He incorporated human nature into Himself.
I'm glad we established that. Now lets move on. Did a person exist in the nature he took on as well?

No.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #198 on: March 21, 2018, 09:03:47 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.  How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #199 on: March 21, 2018, 09:10:21 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.  How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

Post the quote where he or anyone else said that.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #200 on: March 21, 2018, 09:17:20 AM »
What's your point? I don't see a contradiction between those two statements in bold. Human nature is just a term describing the qualities that we all share in common. You have a physical body, but that doesn't make the statement "Tzimis has a body" a physical object. It's a thought category like numbers are.

We're talking metaphysics here.

ETA. I didn't see your text before:
Quote
Not true. Human nature as i said is shared. Some may go as far as saying its shered with the rest of creation.  I personally dont disagree.

It is shared, yes. It's a shared list of attributes.

-Christ has a body
-Christ has a human will
-Christ has a human soul

But the list is not itself a physical object. See the difference? At most it's a Platonic Universal, which isn't physical either. But I tend towards Nominalism personally, as far as I understand it.

I disagree. The term human nature doesn't encompass the personhood. Human nature is purely pysical existence.  Like the steak one puts on the grill.

So you don't believe in any sort of immaterial soul? I'm kind of skeptical of accounts of the soul/mind that get too spooky, but even I don't go that far. I'm not sure that such a radical position works in Christianity.

But in any case, you're still a person with a body. That fact, that descriptor, is not itself a physical object. In taking on a body, Christ the One Person took on the fact known as human nature.
The soul is part of human nature. The spirit is not. In genesis god blew the spirit into adam. The spirit is the person of man.Not his nature.
The prosopon, hypostasis or logos of christ took on human nature.

Pretty sure spirit is considered part of our nature, too.

Also, body and soul are part of our person. Otherwise why should there be a bodily resurrection? We should all just become spheres.
What does this say above?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #201 on: March 21, 2018, 09:28:40 AM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #202 on: March 21, 2018, 09:31:18 AM »
What's your point? I don't see a contradiction between those two statements in bold. Human nature is just a term describing the qualities that we all share in common. You have a physical body, but that doesn't make the statement "Tzimis has a body" a physical object. It's a thought category like numbers are.

We're talking metaphysics here.

ETA. I didn't see your text before:
Quote
Not true. Human nature as i said is shared. Some may go as far as saying its shered with the rest of creation.  I personally dont disagree.

It is shared, yes. It's a shared list of attributes.

-Christ has a body
-Christ has a human will
-Christ has a human soul

But the list is not itself a physical object. See the difference? At most it's a Platonic Universal, which isn't physical either. But I tend towards Nominalism personally, as far as I understand it.

I disagree. The term human nature doesn't encompass the personhood. Human nature is purely pysical existence.  Like the steak one puts on the grill.

So you don't believe in any sort of immaterial soul? I'm kind of skeptical of accounts of the soul/mind that get too spooky, but even I don't go that far. I'm not sure that such a radical position works in Christianity.

But in any case, you're still a person with a body. That fact, that descriptor, is not itself a physical object. In taking on a body, Christ the One Person took on the fact known as human nature.
The soul is part of human nature. The spirit is not. In genesis god blew the spirit into adam. The spirit is the person of man.Not his nature.
The prosopon, hypostasis or logos of christ took on human nature.

Pretty sure spirit is considered part of our nature, too.

Also, body and soul are part of our person. Otherwise why should there be a bodily resurrection? We should all just become spheres.
What does this say above?

Again, you misunderstand me. It is in our nature to be personal, that doesn't mean that our nature is a person.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #203 on: March 21, 2018, 01:16:20 PM »
Jimmy, what is "nature"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #204 on: March 21, 2018, 01:19:44 PM »
I am not sure how it is a "low blow" to suggest that what you are saying does not represent EOxy? I have been engaged with Orthodoxy of both sorts for about 30 years. I have not found things expressed, as you are expressing them, anywhere else. That is a fact. I have not led a sheltered life, and it seems that the EO here and others feel the same.

At the least that suggests you might want to express yourself differently and more carefully.

The person of the Word is the person of the humanity of the Word. Jesus is the Word. In OO terminology we say that the humanity of the Word is non-self-subsistent, which means that it does not exist for itself and so acquire its own person, but it belongs to the Word and so the Word is the person of the humanity for whom it exists.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #205 on: March 21, 2018, 02:06:59 PM »
wow! We are making great strides here.

You patronizing me? I think I've been very nice to you up until now. 

How can he be fully human if you say that human nature has a person. You did say that in the past. No?

The key term is without change. The Word incorporated humanity into His Person without change. How this was accomplished is a mystery.

What you're suggesting sounds more like Eutychianism or maybe Apollinarism.
By calling me a heretic. Other than that yes you have bin a gentleman.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #206 on: March 21, 2018, 02:11:27 PM »
I am not sure how it is a "low blow" to suggest that what you are saying does not represent EOxy? I have been engaged with Orthodoxy of both sorts for about 30 years. I have not found things expressed, as you are expressing them, anywhere else. That is a fact. I have not led a sheltered life, and it seems that the EO here and others feel the same.

At the least that suggests you might want to express yourself differently and more carefully.

The person of the Word is the person of the humanity of the Word. Jesus is the Word. In OO terminology we say that the humanity of the Word is non-self-subsistent, which means that it does not exist for itself and so acquire its own person, but it belongs to the Word and so the Word is the person of the humanity for whom it exists.
Totally agree with that statement.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #207 on: March 21, 2018, 02:18:35 PM »
I am not sure how it is a "low blow" to suggest that what you are saying does not represent EOxy? I have been engaged with Orthodoxy of both sorts for about 30 years. I have not found things expressed, as you are expressing them, anywhere else. That is a fact. I have not led a sheltered life, and it seems that the EO here and others feel the same.

At the least that suggests you might want to express yourself differently and more carefully.

The person of the Word is the person of the humanity of the Word. Jesus is the Word. In OO terminology we say that the humanity of the Word is non-self-subsistent, which means that it does not exist for itself and so acquire its own person, but it belongs to the Word and so the Word is the person of the humanity for whom it exists.
I`m an unusual character.  At least I think so.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:21:42 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #208 on: March 21, 2018, 02:40:47 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #209 on: March 21, 2018, 02:57:38 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
Must be a mutated gene in the brain. Maybe I hit my head to many times as a child.
Now that we has established that maybe you can coment on why you used essence and nature interchangeably in your essay.   

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #210 on: March 21, 2018, 03:04:21 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
Must be a mutated gene in the brain. Maybe I hit my head to many times as a child.
Now that we has established that maybe you can coment on why you used essence and nature interchangeably in your essay.

The legitimacy of your question aside, what would be the point if the meaning of "nature" still so badly eludes you?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #211 on: March 21, 2018, 03:26:42 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
Must be a mutated gene in the brain. Maybe I hit my head to many times as a child.
Now that we has established that maybe you can coment on why you used essence and nature interchangeably in your essay.

The legitimacy of your question aside, what would be the point if the meaning of "nature" still so badly eludes you?
Im sorry if im ignoring you. Let father answer.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #212 on: March 21, 2018, 03:40:58 PM »
I've never met an EO who does not identify ousia and physis. This is one of the main issues which produces confusion and misrepresentation of the OO/Cyrilline Christology, since we use physis as meaning both ousia and hypostasis. I have never met an EO who could possibly ask why I have used ousia and physis as being synonymous.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #213 on: March 21, 2018, 03:51:02 PM »
+1

In OO Christology and St. Cyril's Christology, the word "physis" is very fluid.  It could mean one or the other depending on the context it is used.  We do not engage in rigidity of terminology.  That is one of the main problems with misunderstanding of OO theology.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #214 on: March 21, 2018, 03:59:17 PM »
I've never met an EO who does not identify ousia and physis. This is one of the main issues which produces confusion and misrepresentation of the OO/Cyrilline Christology, since we use physis as meaning both ousia and hypostasis. I have never met an EO who could possibly ask why I have used ousia and physis as being synonymous.
There is a first time for everything father.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #215 on: March 21, 2018, 04:01:18 PM »
+1

In OO Christology and St. Cyril's Christology, the word "physis" is very fluid.  It could mean one or the other depending on the context it is used.  We do not engage in rigidity of terminology.  That is one of the main problems with misunderstanding of OO theology.
I can understand that, but inquiring minds want to know. I dont have to tell you to be careful though.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 04:03:01 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #216 on: March 21, 2018, 04:12:08 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #217 on: March 21, 2018, 04:29:38 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.
Yes in EO its ok.

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #218 on: March 21, 2018, 05:03:02 PM »
There is not really a first time for everything. If you say you are an EO but seem to reject all EO Christological language, and OO Christological language, then that is problematic, and certainly incomprehensible, since the aim of language is communication not confusion.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #219 on: March 21, 2018, 05:03:50 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
Must be a mutated gene in the brain. Maybe I hit my head to many times as a child.
Now that we has established that maybe you can coment on why you used essence and nature interchangeably in your essay.

The legitimacy of your question aside, what would be the point if the meaning of "nature" still so badly eludes you?
Im sorry if im ignoring you. Let father answer.

Don't think of it as me you're ignoring, think of it as basic understanding.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #220 on: March 21, 2018, 05:14:20 PM »
There is not really a first time for everything. If you say you are an EO but seem to reject all EO Christological language, and OO Christological language, then that is problematic, and certainly incomprehensible, since the aim of language is communication not confusion.
Ive read EO Theology plenty of times. Dont reject it at all. If you answer my question correctly . Then I may even think that OO Christology is fine.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:16:49 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #221 on: March 21, 2018, 05:15:26 PM »
When it comes to theology, novelty is not a good thing.
Must be a mutated gene in the brain. Maybe I hit my head to many times as a child.
Now that we has established that maybe you can coment on why you used essence and nature interchangeably in your essay.

The legitimacy of your question aside, what would be the point if the meaning of "nature" still so badly eludes you?
Im sorry if im ignoring you. Let father answer.

Don't think of it as me you're ignoring, think of it as basic understanding.
Intelligence without substance is nothing.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #222 on: March 21, 2018, 05:49:47 PM »
I've never met an EO who does not identify ousia and physis. This is one of the main issues which produces confusion and misrepresentation of the OO/Cyrilline Christology, since we use physis as meaning both ousia and hypostasis. I have never met an EO who could possibly ask why I have used ousia and physis as being synonymous.

+1

In OO Christology and St. Cyril's Christology, the word "physis" is very fluid.  It could mean one or the other depending on the context it is used.  We do not engage in rigidity of terminology.  That is one of the main problems with misunderstanding of OO theology.

This difference seems to me not very surprising, as, while 'physis' had a specialized usage for centuries before Chalcedon, yet the Chalcedonians must have narrowed that usage to their specific purpose, essentially creating a new, secondary usage that now had limited interchangeability with the source usage. Such growth and change in a specialized vocabulary is of course not unusual at all, but does prove again just how critical it is that all sides of a dialog clarify their understanding of terms before proceeding.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:50:38 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #223 on: March 21, 2018, 06:14:00 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.

I think that eventually, hypostasis morphed into meaning "person" sometime in the late 6th, early 7th century.  But before that, there was a certain nuance in the term, which pretty much meant a unit of concrete existence.  It did not necessarily mean "person", but it could sometimes be seen as that way.
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Re: Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?
« Reply #224 on: March 21, 2018, 09:00:46 PM »
Is it wrong to think of hypostasis as "person"?  I think my catechism phrased it "one Person, two essences," but the concept is exactly the same as far as I can tell.  But I'll go double check here in a bit.

I think that eventually, hypostasis morphed into meaning "person" sometime in the late 6th, early 7th century.  But before that, there was a certain nuance in the term, which pretty much meant a unit of concrete existence.  It did not necessarily mean "person", but it could sometimes be seen as that way.
Ok, I see (I hope)! 

For what it's worth, both my own notes and my catechism materials use "nature" and "essence" interchangeably (humanness vs. Godness), and then "person" to refer to what I guess would have been hypostasis in Greek (Persons of the Trinity, Person of Christ).  To me, the underlying concept and understanding sounds the exact same as what y'all are saying.  As much as I can comprehend any of it, anyway.   :D
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.