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Author Topic: SCHISM HEALED --- BREAKING NEWS!  (Read 3022 times) Average Rating: 0
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Armando
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« on: August 27, 2005, 05:44:34 PM »

http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/5127/ecumenicalpatriarch1ta.jpg
The Bishop of Constantinople, in a breath-taking interview for CNN Turk admitted the Orthodox have been
wrong in just about everything. After calling Pope Benedict on the phone (and accepting the doctrines of purgatory, filioque, primacy etc.) the (formerly known as Ecumenical) Bishop of Constantinople appeared on CNN Turk wearing a Catholic bishop outfit.

"We are shocked!" says a 80-year-old Greek woman from Istanbul (Constantinople).

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 05:45:10 PM by Armando » Logged

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Armando
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2005, 05:49:28 PM »

Or is it the other way around?!?


VATICAN.VA  28/08/2005 , 00:46 GMT+2
---------------------

Vatican officials admit that the Roman Catholic church is actually schismatic.
The Pope officialy apologised to the Oecumenical Patriarch personally and asked
all Catholics to go to the nearest Eastern Orthodox church and be baptised ASAP!

The Pope appeared in the temple of Holy Wisdom in Constantinople, where the schism started over 900 years ago,
wearing an Eastern Orthodox outfit and with a beard. Catholics all over the world were shocked! "Is it a real beard or not! We need to know..." a Vatican insider asks.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8023/pope7lg.jpg



Stay tuned...
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Armando
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2005, 05:51:12 PM »

Now, before anyone accuses me for troll-like behaviour I just want to say a few things:

A: I myself have been soo tired of waiting for a reconcilation and I thought of how to help things.
B: I did it so myself and the members of this forum could have fun.
C: Why wait 'till reconcilation to know what things will be like?
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2005, 06:28:38 PM »

Indeed why wait - you can have the full undivided ancient Church right now.  The Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2005, 06:34:48 PM »

Quote
Holy Wisdom in Constantinople,

Speaking of Hagia Sophia, when are the Orthodox going to get that back?
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Saint Polycarp
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005, 07:50:51 PM »

Indeed why wait - you can have the full undivided ancient Church right now.ÂÂ  The Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  

Cuz the EO are only half of the Catholic Church andÂÂ  I'm not so sure how undivided the EO really are.
Anyway Ich lieb Erdinger Hefeweizen bier!ÂÂ  Wink
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 07:51:30 PM by Saint Polycarp » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2005, 08:24:52 PM »

No, the Orthodox have always considered themselves, and themselves alone to be the fullness of the Catholic faith.  So we believe that which has always been believed by the Church.  By deviating into heresy, Rome ceased to be a memeber of the Church. 
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 08:54:21 PM »

No, the Orthodox have always considered themselves, and themselves alone to be the fullness of the Catholic faith.ÂÂ  So we believe that which has always been believed by the Church.ÂÂ  By deviating into heresy, Rome ceased to be a memeber of the Church.ÂÂ  

Well we disagree with your assesment but I'll not call our EO brethren heretics.
Anyway how bout a nice bier?
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2005, 09:14:30 PM »

I'm having one now, but not a bleeding hefeweizen.  I'm having a traditional IPA, thank you.
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2005, 09:15:00 PM »

Anyway how bout a nice bier?

A "bier" is what you place a dead body on.  Are you threatening us with another Vatican-sponsored massacre?
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2005, 11:12:15 PM »

LOL, when I read the first post on this thread, all I could think was, "Catholics have him at gun point on CNN!"
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2005, 11:29:24 PM »

The Papal Church can't accuse the Orthodox of heresy, because everything we believe the Latins once believed.  If they want to heal the schism they need to renounce what they have added - Papal infallibility, filioque etc. 

Still some good German Beer sounds good right about now.  German wine is good as well.  Come to think of it there isn't much I didn't like in Germany....so now I have to ask myself why I'm moving to Greece again...I'll have to suffer through Mythos and Greek wine, we all have our crosses. 
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Armando
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2005, 05:32:11 AM »

Anyway, I hoped you all checked the custom images I made of an Eastern Pope and a Western Ecumenical Patriarch.
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Armando
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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2005, 05:36:26 AM »

As John Paul II (the Great) said: "The Church needs to breath with both lungs."
Eastern Orthodox must realise the schism dates to the Council of Florence.

I mean, as a Christian what should I do? Believe the Church that accepted all Catholic doctrines in that council but then just didn't fancy the reconcilation? I can love the EO, I can consider them brothers and all but I would only return to Orthodoxy if the RC show great signs of heresy (such as a Pope accepting women clergy). Until now, I have the deepest love for the Catholic Church.

If I am wrong, God have mercy on me...
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2005, 02:12:09 PM »

Dear Armando,

The worst feeling that you or anyone can feel in their lives is when you think someone loves you and cares for you and would never lie to you, but in the end not only were that person's words manipulative lies but also mallicious flattery and emotional blackmail.

Quote
"Clearly there is a need for a liberating process of purification of memory. For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of Him."

"Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians [Roman Catholics] fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the 'mysterium iniquitatis' at work [2 Thess. 2:7] in the human heart? To God alone belongs judgment and, therefore, we entrust the heavy burden of the past to his endless mercy, imploring him to heal the wounds that still cause suffering to the spirit of the Greek people."

- Pope John Paul II, May 4th, 2001
ADDRESS TO HIS BEATITUDE CHRISTODOULOS
ARCHBISHOP OF ATHENS AND PRIMATE OF GREECE

look up 2 Tessalonians 2:1-8 and tell me why you are still Catholic?
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2005, 03:06:51 PM »

The council of Florence does NOT represent the Orthodox accept the Latin view of things, nor a date of the schism.  As far as I know only the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed to the council (minus of course St. Mark of Ephesos).  On the Holy Mountain the sites of martyrs who refused to accept the union are still preserved.  I am not sure about the Other Patriarchates (Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem), but none of the Slavs were part of the union.  So that hardly constitutes a Pan-Orthodox view. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2005, 05:34:55 PM »

Quote
The council of Florence does NOT represent the Orthodox accept the Latin view of things, nor a date of the schism.  As far as I know only the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed to the council (minus of course St. Mark of Ephesos).

Here's all the info. I could find from the actual council:

Session 4, 9 April 1438: "Finally, our most dear son John Palaeologus, emperor of the Romans, together with our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, the apocrisiaries of the other patriarchal sees and a great multitude of archbishops, ecclesiastics, and nobles arrived at their last port, Venice, on 8 February last...

"Therefore we intend to carry out with care, as is our duty, the decree of the council of Basel, to which the Greeks agreed, as well as the choice of a place for the ecumenical council, which was made at the council of Basel and which was later confirmed by us at Bologna at the urging of the envoys of the said emperor and patriarch, and any other things pertaining to this work of holy union.

"Therefore we decree and declare, in every way and form as best we can, with the assent of the said emperor and patriarch and of all those in the present synod, that there exists a holy universal or ecumenical synod in this city of Ferrara, which is free and safe for all; and therefore it should be deemed and called such a synod by all, in which this holy business of union will be conducted without any quarrelsome contention but with all charity and, as we hope, will be brought by divine favour to a happy conclusion together with the other holy tasks for which the synod is known to have been instituted."

So we see right here, only the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Emperor at the start of Ferrara (Basel-Ferrara-Florence-Rome were like one single council).

Session 6, 6 July 1439: "Eugenius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, for an everlasting record. With the agreement of our most dear son John Palaeologus, illustrious emperor of the Romans, of the deputies of our venerable brothers the patriarchs and of other representatives of the easter church, to the following... [touches on the filioque; stating that the Latins believe that the Father is the source of all deity and there is a single spiration of the Holy Spirit]

[Now goes on to say that Christ is present in both unlevened and levened wheat bread; stuff about purgatory in the form of "cleansing pains" and works for the dead to relieve them from purgatory; Roman pontiff holds primacy over the whole Church; Constantinople second, Alexandria third, Antioch fourth, and Jerusalem fifth]"

Session 8, 22 November 1439, covers the "Bull of union with the Armenians": "After all these matters had been explained, the aforesaid Armenians, in their own name and in the name of their patriarch and of all Armenians, with all devotion and obedience accept, admit and embrace this salutary synodal decree with all its chapters, declarations, definitions, traditions, precepts and statutes and all the doctrines contained in it, and also whatever the holy apostolic see and the Roman church holds and teaches...

"When the aforesaid decrre had been solemnly read out in our and the holy synod's presence, straightaway our beloved Narses, an Armenian, in the name of the said envoys, publicly recited the following in Armenian and thereupond our beloved son Basil of the order of the friars Minor, the interpreter between us and the Armenians, publicly read it out in Latin as follows.

"[acceptance of the council then follows, including the insertion of the filioque, etc.]"

Session 11, 4 February 1442, "Bull of union with the Copts": "After all these explanations the aforesaid abbot Andrew, in the name of the aforesaid patriarch and of himself and of all the Jacobites, receives and accepts with all devotion and reverence this most salutary synodal decree with all its chapters, declarations, definitions, traditions, precepts and statutes and all the doctrine contained therein, and also whatever the holy apostolic see and the Roman church holds and teaches."

Session 13, 30 November 1444, "Bull of union with the Syrians": [This is all in the future tense, as in "Archbishop Abdala shall accept," which leads one to think that this wasn't agreed upon as of yet]

Session 14, 7 August 1445, "Bull of union with the Chaldeans and the Maronites of Cyprus": "I, Timothy, archbishop of Tarsus and metropolitan of the Chaldeans who are in Cyprus, on behalf of myself and all my peoples in Cyprus, profess, vow and promise to almighty God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, and then to you, most holy and blessed father pope Eugenius IV, to this holy apostolic see and to this holy and venerable congregation, that henceforth I will always remain under the obedience of you and your sucessors and of the the holy Roman church as under the unique mother and head of all other churches...

"Then our beloved son in Christ Issac, envoy of our venerable brother Elias, bishop of the Maronites, on his behalf and in his name, rejecting the heresy of Macarius about one will in Christ, made with great veneration a profession that was similar in all details."

Although, the interesting part of that Council is that it reaffirmed the authority of the Councils over the Popes as stated in the Council of Constance.

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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2005, 06:39:25 AM »

The council of Florence does NOT represent the Orthodox accept the Latin view of things, nor a date of the schism.  As far as I know only the Ecumenical Patriarchate agreed to the council (minus of course St. Mark of Ephesos).


The Ecumenical patriarch died before the end of the council at Florence. Amazingly enough he foresaw his death long enough in advance to prepare a will in which he capitulated to all the Latin terms Roll Eyes. Of course there is a specific term for documents produced under such circumstances. We call them "forgeries".

John
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Armando
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2005, 04:20:35 PM »

I looked up: 2 Thesalonians 2:1-8. It says about the antiChrist, right?
What do you mean by that?
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2005, 04:56:02 PM »

The Papal Church can't accuse the Orthodox of heresy, because everything we believe the Latins once believed.ÂÂ  If they want to heal the schism they need to renounce what they have added - Papal infallibility, filioque etc.ÂÂ  

Still some good German Beer sounds good right about now.ÂÂ  German wine is good as well.ÂÂ  Come to think of it there isn't much I didn't like in Germany....so now I have to ask myself why I'm moving to Greece again...I'll have to suffer through Mythos and Greek wine, we all have our crosses.ÂÂ  

Whoa.......gotta part company with you on the German wine thing, my friend.....I like wine from almost all other countries better than German wine.  (Please, no more sugary Riesling!)  But bring on the German beer, by all means! 
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2005, 07:08:13 AM »

Quote
Speaking of Hagia Sophia, when are the Orthodox going to get that back?

When Russia forces Turkey to collapse.
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2005, 03:01:59 PM »

I looked up: 2 Thesalonians 2:1-8. It says about the antiChrist, right?
What do you mean by that?
Rread this in context with what Pope John Paul II wrote in his apology to the Orthodox Church. It is in ref. to this Biblical quote."the mystery of iniquity"

It has to do with "playing God" and replacing God on Earth, which is what a Vicarate tries to do. Not even Jesus exalted Himself, (even though He is truly the Son of God), in the same manner that many of the Popes have done in the past. For me and all Orthodox a bishop is an embassador of God and a leader of his Church but all have been given equal authority. Binding and loosing of sins, as you already know is a power that every priest and bishop possesses. A bishop has the power to make any priest a confessor piest. Therefore the keys are not the possession of one on Earth, but in the possession of Christ who is the high priest for ever, who can sympathise with us and is not far from us but is with us always unto the ages of ages.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2005, 11:57:50 PM »

Let us hope Bishop Fellay following the example of St. mark of Ephesus, remain strong in his possition and keep his Church out of the liberal and worldly Vatican establishment.
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2005, 11:34:40 AM »

I didn't know whether I'd ventured into a comedy at first, very droll. The poster who will not leave Rome unless it falls into heresy and then gives the example of ordaining women made me blink. I could not, forgive me, work out why this as an example of all things already accepted the final straw would be priestesses?

Wanting to cling to something or male chauvinism?

(I should make it clear that I feel the God-man has given men and women different roles without imputing one is superior to the other. As a Jewish contributor put it neatly elsewhere on OC.net, sameness does not necessarily lead to equality).
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2005, 03:52:51 PM »

Let us hope Bishop Fellay following the example of St. mark of Ephesus, remain strong in his possition and keep his Church out of the liberal and worldly Vatican establishment.

Mere opinioin. This type of chatter hardly opens discussions with RC's.
Have a good day.

~Victor
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2005, 09:31:00 PM »

Quote
What of Marcian and Leo, and Marcian's persecution on the non-Chalcedonians? What is "wrong"?

Again, why should we trust the Pope of Rome?

 And what makes today's Pope acceptable to Orthodoxy?

Has he denounced many of the things the early Popes of Rome erred from?

Perhaps, it's easy to denounce and ask forgiveness from the results of the Crusades or inquisitions. But what about Immaculate Conception, the filioque, and the celibacy of priests?

Rome is high in primacy because St. Peter died there?

So it's not even about who "received the keys." It's about where this person died. And why so?

Is there a doctrine or a church father in history that says because St. Peter died there, that therefore it must be highest in honor and primacy?

How is a bishop who is not Roman have the power to bind and loose if the only one with the key is Rome?

 Does another bishop get this power from Rome or Christ?

Does the Holy Spirit give every succession same Apostolic grace except Rome, which is given super-Apostolic grace different from all others?

Why then is Constantinople second?

Is it because St. Andrew, the brother of St. Peter died there?

What about Alexandria?

The nephew of the Primate died there too?

Is this why the first three received honor?

Victor,

Please, please...feel free to answer these questions. You have posted numerous times on Orthodox-Catholic relations, and in the past you have not answered questions like these.

Please, help us understand the viewpoint of the RC church by answering the questions posed to you, in response to the questions you posed and were answered here.

Victor,

Got any answers to these questions? You indicated that you wanted a discussion, which implies two-way conversations. Please feel free to answer the questions we posed to you in another thread re: Orthodox-Catholic relations. I really am interested in your answer, which means there probably are others here also interested but not posting!
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