Author Topic: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer  (Read 1465 times)

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Pope Francis wants to change the translation of a line in the Lord's Prayer.  What do you think: http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/12/08/pope-francis-calls-for-lords-prayer-translation-to-be-changed/

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 03:07:40 PM »
It would seem (as was mentioned briefly in the story) that there are two ways of understanding 'temptation': it could be something coming from a place of fallenness or sin, but also at times it can be like a trial to be overcome:

Quote
But you will perhaps say, 'What difference is there between being tempted, and falling or entering into temptation?' Well, if one is overcome of evil—and he will be overcome unless he struggles against it himself, and unless God protects him with His shield—that man has entered into temptation, and is in it, and is brought under it like one that is led captive. But if one withstands and endures, that man is indeed tempted; but he has not entered into temptation, or fallen into it. Thus Jesus was led up of the Spirit, not indeed to enter into temptation, but to be tempted of the devil. And Abraham, again, did not enter into temptation, neither did God lead him into temptation, but He tempted (tried) him; yet He did not drive him into temptation. The Lord Himself, moreover, tempted (tried) the disciples. Thus the wicked one, when he tempts us, draws us into the temptations, as dealing himself with the temptations of evil. But God, when He tempts (tries), adduces the temptations (trials) as one untempted of evil. For God, it is said, cannot be tempted of evil. The devil, therefore, drives us on by violence, drawing us to destruction; but God leads us by hand, training us for our salvation.

-- St. Dionysius of Alexandria, An Exposition of Luke 22:46

God can never send trials in a sinful or unbeneficial way, but rather allows or sends what is in keeping with his all-loving and all-knowing will. "Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself." (Wis. 3:5-6) With this in mind the "lead us not into temptation" might mean something along the lines of "give us not more than what we can bear" or "do not let us go through more than we can bear" (cf 1 Cor. 10:13). You could say that this is obvious and not something we need to pray to God, but that's true of everything we pray--God already knows all of it before we even think it; in this instance, such a prayer would be an acknowledgement of our need to rely on God's strength and compassion.

With that in mind, it seems like a clarification or more overt explanation of the passage would work just fine, and I'm not sure what need there really is to alter the translation itself. If anything it could be a good 'teaching moment' thing--guiding people to consider more deeply and thoughtfully the things they pray and believe, and not just repeat the words and take them at face value.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 03:07:55 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 04:18:44 PM »
but also at times it can be like a trial to be overcome
That's how this sounds in Arabic and Aramaic, and Church Slavonic too.


With that in mind, it seems like a clarification or more overt explanation of the passage would work just fine, and I'm not sure what need there really is to alter the translation itself. If anything it could be a good 'teaching moment' thing--guiding people to consider more deeply and thoughtfully the things they pray and believe, and not just repeat the words and take them at face value.
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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 12:59:43 AM »
"I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them." (Isaiah 42:16)
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 05:56:55 AM »
I don't know about you guys, but for me, this seems like a really bold statement - it's one of those things that either comes from the Holy Spirit or is a very prideful thing; I don't think there are any grey areas when it comes to even touching the Lord's Prayer.

And I can't help but ponder about Pope Francis's intentions with this idea.

It's a foolish thing to speculate, only God knows the intentions of Pope Francis.

However, considering that Pope Francis's Papacy has been marked with the quote on quote "spirit of Vatican II," and it's been marked with statements that aim to promote a morally relativistic idea of "do not judge" (something that Saint John Chrysostom would have a word with) as well as to try to crush the traditionalist movement in Roman Catholicism, I can't help but think that the motive behind this is a continuing assault against the idea that there is a devil, that there is such a thing as sin, and to promote the idea that men can find the Holy Spirit within themselves based on their own experiences; not changing their lives, not finding Christ, but defining reality as they see fit - believing that men are god, and they can define what is good or what is evil.

By changing this prayer, it's a means of removing the idea of evil from the Roman Church's liturgical life, and is consistent with the previous actions he has committed in trying to change what the Roman Catholic Church believes in in regards to the  idea of objective evil.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 05:57:45 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 08:55:24 PM »
I read a longer article in this mornings LA Times by Tom Kington (I do not know who he is). From what I read, it is to correct the translation from Greek. It was already changed in Italy in 2008 (pre-Pope Francis) and subsequently in Spain on a date not specified.

I looked into this. The change appears Orthodox to me, especially the part that God does not tempt us.

The "Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow" seems to follow the commentary of St. Cyprian of Carthage:

430. What do we ask in these words of the prayer, Lead us not into temptation?
First, that God suffer us not to be led into temptation; secondly, that if it be needful for us
to be tried and purified through temptation, he give us not up wholly to temptation, nor
suffer us to fall.

I learned today that "suffer us" is poetic for "allow us".


If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 11:48:59 PM »
There are the usual willfully-idiotic newspaper religion-section columnists out there saying the "King James" translates this wrong. That's untrue. The Greek is the same in both Evangelists and is unambiguous. 'Eisphero' is literally "bear into," carry into.

What's really under scrutiny here, then, is Christ's own theologizing. It apparently doesn't jibe with some people's sensibilities.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 01:12:51 AM »
I always thought strange that Italian was the only Romance language that followed the translation from the Latin Vulgate, like did English, for the Lord's Prayer, while the other Romance languages followed, at least the final part, the original Greek.
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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 02:47:13 AM »
What kind of verb is the Greek verb for "lead."  Is it present or past tense or a participle?  How should one translate it literally into English?

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 08:00:09 AM »
There are the usual willfully-idiotic newspaper religion-section columnists out there saying the "King James" translates this wrong. That's untrue. The Greek is the same in both Evangelists and is unambiguous. 'Eisphero' is literally "bear into," carry into.

What's really under scrutiny here, then, is Christ's own theologizing. It apparently doesn't jibe with some people's sensibilities.

Well it isn't as if Rome hasn't 'corrected' our Lord's theology in the past (John 15:26).

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »
I always thought strange that Italian was the only Romance language that followed the translation from the Latin Vulgate, like did English, for the Lord's Prayer, while the other Romance languages followed, at least the final part, the original Greek.

Present active indicative in both St. Matthew and St. Luke. The meaning I discuss above, but to expand a little: 'eis' = "into"; 'phero' = "I carry."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 12:02:15 PM »
What kind of verb is the Greek verb for "lead."  Is it present or past tense or a participle?  How should one translate it literally into English?
It's the aorist subjunctive. It can be used for imperatives in the negative sense. Me eisenenkes ("do not lead us", subjunctive aorist), but eisenenkon ("lead us", imperative aorist).
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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 12:12:42 PM »
Another shot fired in the never-ending debate about how all translation is interpretation.
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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 12:49:29 PM »
Maybe so.
 
But this one by Jeffrey B. Gibson is somewhat different and well documented:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt12878s7
If you are not able to retrieve books from jstor, much of the data leading to the book is online (just type in his name) but it is too technical for me to understand.

My translation of the gist of the analysis is that the translation should be something like: "Lead us not to test You."
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 01:04:27 PM »
I always thought strange that Italian was the only Romance language that followed the translation from the Latin Vulgate, like did English, for the Lord's Prayer, while the other Romance languages followed, at least the final part, the original Greek.

Present active indicative in both St. Matthew and St. Luke. The meaning I discuss above, but to expand a little: 'eis' = "into"; 'phero' = "I carry."

Oops yes it's the past subjunctive, which has an imperative effect in this idiom. So between Raphael and me you get the facts (he has the parsing right, I'm sure I have the vocabulary right). That's what happens when you ask a question early in the morning.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 01:05:54 PM »
ITT: people having a hard time with the idea that God is sovereign.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Pope Francis Wants to Change the Translation of the Lord's Prayer
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 04:19:42 PM »
ITT: people having a hard time with the idea that God is sovereign.

To expand a bit:

Yes, God has placed us in this world of temptation and other trial, and yes, he has done it on purpose.

This is faith -- not verbally standing by a dogma, tho that may enter into it -- but trusting God who has made and presides over all this which we find so painful. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (St. Job), "And we know [i.e., we confidently trust] that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

So to me what's astounding about "Lead us not into temptation" is not the idea that God would be the one to bring us into trials but that we can and should ask him not to do it. God has a purpose, an important purpose, in our temptation, and here we are asking him by implication to set that aside. How does this accord with our salvation? I am not saying I doubt the Lord's prayer -- not a whit -- but I am saying this, in my opinion, is the real question about this passage.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy