Author Topic: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric  (Read 718 times)

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Offline Daniel2:47

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Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay to force support for same-sex marriage in the Church of England, a senior Scottish Episcopal church minister and LGBTQ campaigner has said.

The Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, provost of St Mary’s Cathedral in Glasgow, made the comments in a blog he reposted about LGBTQ inclusion in the Church of England following the announcement of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle’s engagement.

In the post, he writes that Christians should pray “for the Lord to bless Prince George with a love, when he grows up, of a fine young gentleman”.
 
A former chaplain to the Queen, the Rev Gavin Ashenden, has described the comments as “unkind” and “profoundly un-Christian”, and said the prayer was the “theological equivalent of the curse of the wicked fairy in one of the fairytales”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/01/christians-should-pray-from-prince-george-to-be-gay-says-c-of-e-minister

The sad state of the Anglican church...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 08:18:17 AM by Daniel2:47 »

Offline IXOYE

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 09:03:38 AM »
Lord, have mercy!

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 09:44:21 AM »
ROFL
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 12:33:53 PM »
Pretty much sums up the "new morality." No care for the person, just for the ephemeral persons of ideology.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 12:35:17 PM »
Interesting question:
The "Anglican Communion" is often defined as the churches in communion with the See of Canterbury. Within the last few years, the Episcopal church was suspended by the Anglican Communion, with strong votes from 3rd world nations' churches, over the issue of homosexual marriage.

What would be the consequence to the "Anglican Communion" if the See of Canterbury instituted gay marriage and the Anglican Communion suspended communion with the See of Canterbury?

Namely, what would happen to the Anglican Communion if the Anglican Communion ejected the Church of England? Would the global organization calling itself the "Anglican Communion" have effectively divested itself of remaining the actual Anglican Communion?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:38:52 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 12:38:26 PM »
Suspension is not breaking communion. It just means ECUSA doesn't get to vote.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 12:41:26 PM »
Suspension is not breaking communion. It just means ECUSA doesn't get to vote.
OK.


To give another example, the Lutheran Church in Sweden has apparently stopped referring to God as a "He". So what happens if the official Church of England goes down a radical theological path, institutes gay marriage, etc., but the assembly of Churches calling itself the Anglican Communion finds the changes so drastic that it breaks communion or ejects the See of Canterbury and C.o.E.?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:44:14 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 12:43:02 PM »
Suspension is not breaking communion. It just means ECUSA doesn't get to vote.
OK. So what happens if the official Church of England goes down a radical theological path, institutes gay marriage, etc., but the assembly of Churches calling itself the Anglican Communion finds the changes so drastic that it breaks communion or ejects the See of Canterbury and C.o.E.?

Sounds to me like you just described what would happen.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 12:56:30 PM »
Anglicanism, especially some conservative Anglicans, have historically prided themselves on being the official state Church of England. The designation means less today in an era of religious tolerance, but it still is significant. The C.o.E. is allocated seats in the UK's Parliament. The British government was historically responsible for convening C.o.E. assemblies like the ones that chose the "Articles of Religion".

This official status is a reason why, for example, the R.C. church in the UK is not the "Church of England". Likewise, we have an Orthodox Western Rite church in the UK that includes former Anglicans and shares theology with the pre-schism Church, but the orthodox church is not part of the "Anglican Communion", since it's not the state Church of England.

If there was a schism between the more conservative Anglican Communion with a large base of members in third world countries and the Church of England due to the C.O.E. drastically changing positions (teachings on the Trinity like calling God not a "He", gay marriage etc.), the "Anglican Communion" could recognize some splinter group in the UK as the new "Church of England". But by the longstanding definition, this assembly would not seem to be the Anglican Communion anymore, since it no longer included either the state "Church of England", nor the majority of self-proclaimed English Christians.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 12:59:51 PM »
Anglicanism, especially some conservative Anglicans, have historically prided themselves on being the official state Church of England. The designation means less today in an era of religious tolerance, but it still is significant. The C.o.E. is allocated seats in the UK's Parliament. The British government was historically responsible for convening C.o.E. assemblies like the ones that chose the "Articles of Religion".

This official status is a reason why, for example, the R.C. church in the UK is not the "Church of England". Likewise, we have an Orthodox Western Rite church in the UK that includes former Anglicans and shares theology with the pre-schism Church, but the orthodox church is not part of the "Anglican Communion", since it's not the state Church of England.

If there was a schism between the more conservative Anglican Communion with a large base of members in third world countries and the Church of England due to the C.O.E. drastically changing positions (teachings on the Trinity like calling God not a "He", gay marriage etc.), the "Anglican Communion" could recognize some splinter group in the UK as the new "Church of England". But by the longstanding definition, this assembly would not seem to be the Anglican Communion anymore, since it no longer included either the state "Church of England", nor the majority of self-proclaimed English Christians.

The role of the Crown in Anglicanism was hashed out relatively long ago, when the Empire was breaking up. Obviously the Church of England proper has a permanent relationship to England and the English Crown, but that's not what you were asking.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 01:02:48 PM »
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In June, members of the Scottish Episcopal Church general synod voted overwhelmingly to allow its churches to hold same-sex ceremonies. ... The move is expected to be censured by the overarching Anglican Communion, which may exclude the Scottish Episcopal Church from future decision-making activities. Last year the Anglican Communion suspended the US Episcopal Church from participating in decision-making and prevented it from representing Anglicans in meetings with other Christians and faith groups after the church similarly supported equal marriage.
... The Anglican Communion may take action as soon as next week at a meeting of church leaders in Canterbury.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anglican-church-same-sex-wedding-gay-marriage-alistair-dinnie-peter-matthews-st-johns-edinburgh-a7974151.html
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 01:05:56 PM »
I don't think anybody's doubting the tensions between the worldwide Anglican Communion and the liberal churches in the English-speaking world. In fact, that's old news, as, for example, a number of Episcopal churches in the U.S. broke ties there and submitted to African bishops a decade ago.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2017, 01:09:34 PM »
Without the purely political unity enforced from the crown (or maybe even with it), Anglicanism is basically programmed to disintegrate. One is then left with the BCP (but which one? Or do we use missals?) or the 39 articles (but how to interpret them? Or we just ditch them altogether?) .
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:56 PM »
Without the purely political unity enforced from the crown (or maybe even with it), Anglicanism is basically programmed to disintegrate. One is then left with the BCP (but which one? Or do we use missals?) or the 39 articles (but how to interpret them? Or we just ditch them altogether?) .

I feel fairly confident "We just ditch them altogether" is in the works.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:41 PM »
Among the continuing Anglicans there continue to be factions strongly in favor of maintaining the 39 articles as a doctrinal standard. It's painful to watch but true.
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2017, 01:20:57 PM »
I believe you. Nobody's as conservative, in that stiff upper lip way, as a high churchman. It's part of identifying, unconsciously I suppose, with Britain as it once was, one of the greatest States in history. Same is true for some in the colonies, by some complicated transformation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2017, 01:23:26 PM »
Quote
What is the Anglican Communion?

    "The 1930 Lambeth Conference described the Anglican Communion as a 'fellowship, within the one holy catholic and apostolic church, of those duly constituted dioceses, provinces or regional churches in communion with the see of Canterbury.'" - Colin Buchanan, Historical Dictionary of Anglicanism
...
The word Anglican originates in ecclesia anglicana, a medieval Latin phrase dating to at least 1246 that means the English Church, but in the past two centuries the tradition has been adopted around the world.
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/identity/about.aspx

IIRC, numerous Anglican Communion Churches (eg. Church of South Africa, Church of Australia) define their faith directly as that of the Church of England and have oaths whereby their clergy affirm the 39 Articles. So it becomes interesting what would happen if the C.o.E.'s teachings came to drastically diverge from what they and the "Anglican Communion" collectively accepted.

The Anglican Communion cannot really force the CoE to conform to the Anglican Communion, and it can't really expel the CoE either. Certainly it looks ironic for the A.C. to even suspend the C.O.E. like it did to the Episcopalians.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:29:43 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 01:39:10 PM »
Among the continuing Anglicans there continue to be factions strongly in favor of maintaining the 39 articles as a doctrinal standard. It's painful to watch but true.

I suggested on a major Anglican forum that it looks like one part of the Articles teaches a literal Real Presence in the Eucharist and that another part of the Articles denies this. This is because among the authors of the Articles some openly held to opposite views on the Real Presence. The forum administrator said I shouldn't write like that on the forum because suggesting a contradiction in the Articles suggested that one should not affirm the Articles.

One of the forum's rules is that you cannot say that one should not adhere to the Articles.

I found that at least a large minority Anglicans will say that one does not have to accept the Articles of Religion to be an Anglican. But then when they are asked if they accept the Articles of Religion on the topic of the Real Presence, about 80-90% of them say Yes. Yet when asked their answer about the Real Presence, they are deeply divided on what the Articles actually teach. It looks like what they are really doing is interpreting the Articles each on their own to fit their own theology of the topic.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:44:10 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 01:40:16 PM »
Among the continuing Anglicans there continue to be factions strongly in favor of maintaining the 39 articles as a doctrinal standard. It's painful to watch but true.

I suggested on a major Anglican forum that it looks like one part of the Articles teaches a literal Real Presence in the Eucharist and that another part of the Articles denies this. This is because among the authors of the Articles some openly held to opposite views on the Real Presence. The forum administrator said I shouldn't write like that on the forum because suggesting a contradiction in the Articles suggested that one should not affirm the Articles.

One of the forum's rules is that you cannot say that one should not adhere to the Articles.

I'm guessing this forum isn't administered by Gene Robinson.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 01:44:39 PM »
Among the continuing Anglicans there continue to be factions strongly in favor of maintaining the 39 articles as a doctrinal standard. It's painful to watch but true.

I suggested on a major Anglican forum that it looks like one part of the Articles teaches a literal Real Presence in the Eucharist and that another part of the Articles denies this. This is because among the authors of the Articles some openly held to opposite views on the Real Presence. The forum administrator said I shouldn't write like that on the forum because suggesting a contradiction in the Articles suggested that one should not affirm the Articles.

One of the forum's rules is that you cannot say that one should not adhere to the Articles.

I know the forum you're speaking of. The participants, including the administrators, are bizarrely, almost willfully, ignorant of their own history.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 02:02:18 PM »
If you check the Anglican Commentaries on the meaning of the Articles of Religion, the Commentaries take opposite positions on whether the Articles teach a literal, objective Real Presence or deny this.

For an Anglican commentary denying that the Articles teach an objective Presence, see Rodgers' 1586 commentary:
Quote
(Anglican Article 29) The adversaries of this [Anglican] doctrine are The Ubiquitaries, both Lutheran and popish; they saying the very body of Christ, at the Lord's supper, is eaten as well of the wicked as of the godly; these affirming, that all communicants, bad and good, do eat the very and natural body of Christ Jesus; they saying that the true and real body of Christ, in, with, under the bread and wine, may be eaten, chewed, and digested, even of Turks, which never were of the Church...

Here is an example where in the Articles different authors openly declared intended opposite meanings on the Real Presence:
Quote
Mr. Hodges, in his monograph, Bishop Guest and Articles XXVIII. and XXIX. (p. 34), admits that in Article XXIX. " the Elizabethan Reformers condemned by implication the doctrine of a Real (objective) Presence, and that thus the insertion of Article XXIX. was tantamount to a rejection of Article XXVIII., in the sense attached to it by Guest ".

Guest recognised as much, and denounced Article XXIX. as "contrary to Scripture and the doctrine of the Fathers," in a third letter to Cecil early in May, 1571, and yet on the llth of this same month did not hesitate to affix his signature thereto.

SOURCE: REV. HENRY IGNATIUS DUDLEY RYDER, Essays (published 1911)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:05:19 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2017, 02:20:12 PM »
That does look pretty contradictory, yes.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Saxon

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 10:52:18 PM »
The Anglican Communion worldwide is a theological trainwreck. Here at home, the Anglican Church of Canada has been put on notice for suspension for its aggressive support of gay marriage and of non-celibate gay clergy. One of the local churches here has a gallery of Robert Lentz icons in the sanctuary, and most fly pride flags in June. As for Canterbury, Archbishop Welby is more interested in agitating for left-wing social causes than in upholding church tenets. The church keeps splintering and splintering as traditional Anglicans are pushed away, either embracing Anglo-Catholicism or ditching for more liturgical and traditional branches of Christianity. It will be the first branch of Protestantism to completely vanish, IMO.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 11:00:25 PM »
They are praying in vain, the future King George VII will be appropriately heterosexual.  After all, Prince Charles is a frequent pilgrim to Holy Mount Athos, and Prince Philip is Greek and probably has some icons somewhere.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2017, 11:26:48 PM »
They are praying in vain, the future King George VII will be appropriately heterosexual.  After all, Prince Charles is a frequent pilgrim to Holy Mount Athos, and Prince Philip is Greek and probably has some icons somewhere.

I actually forgot until now that George was the name of the baby. I thought they were praying for Prince Philip, whose real name I had forgotten, to become gay.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
The Anglican Communion is a plane on a collision course with a mountain and all the bishops are fighting for the honor of actually steering the plane.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 01:50:07 AM »
Prince Philip is Greek and probably has some icons somewhere.

Not sure about Prince Philip but apparently Prince Charles' interest in Orthodoxy runs deep, and he has received icons from monks at Mt. Athos.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/march-27th-2015/defender-of-the-eastern-faith/
主哀れめよ!

Offline Luke

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 01:56:34 AM »
Perhaps they should pray that Prince George be fat.  That would cause an immense scandal. :-X

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2017, 11:59:50 AM »
Interesting question:
The "Anglican Communion" is often defined as the churches in communion with the See of Canterbury. Within the last few years, the Episcopal church was suspended by the Anglican Communion, with strong votes from 3rd world nations' churches, over the issue of homosexual marriage.

What would be the consequence to the "Anglican Communion" if the See of Canterbury instituted gay marriage and the Anglican Communion suspended communion with the See of Canterbury?

Namely, what would happen to the Anglican Communion if the Anglican Communion ejected the Church of England? Would the global organization calling itself the "Anglican Communion" have effectively divested itself of remaining the actual Anglican Communion?

The ECUSA was suspended, not the Episcopal Church of Scotland.  Which was pure hypocrisy, given that the Episcopal Church of Scotland is far more liberal, basically the United Church of Christ wih bishops.
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Re: Christians should pray for Prince George to be gay, says Anglican cleric
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 03:52:58 PM »
Our Lady of Gaga, pray for us
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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