Author Topic: Poland to ban Sunday shopping  (Read 4078 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:56 PM »
Ah, yes, who could forget the religious discrimination angle! Yes, that's what this is about. I like the way you think.

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2017, 04:33:20 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2017, 04:33:59 PM »
Ah, yes, who could forget the religious discrimination angle! Yes, that's what this is about. I like the way you think.



Ever heard of unintended consequences?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2017, 04:37:38 PM »
I get it. Every day is sacred, so none of them are.

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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2017, 04:40:37 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2017, 04:43:26 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2017, 04:50:49 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:51:43 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2017, 04:51:18 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2017, 04:54:28 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2017, 04:56:03 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
Agreed. Not sure where we differ on that one.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2017, 04:57:18 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?


let the stores remain open and Jews and Muslims work Sunday in exchange for Friday or Saturday off....


oh wait...;)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2017, 04:58:34 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.

I'm not sure but I think in Poland, due to zoning laws, small businesses have a bit more protection from predatory mega-corps than they do in the American neoliberal paradise.

Well, if true that's good, at least.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2017, 05:00:10 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
Agreed. Not sure where we differ on that one.

Ever lived paycheck to paycheck? Seems like a Sunday's pay could make a lot of difference for some.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2017, 05:03:24 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.

No one is being forced to go to Mass. But they shouldn't be forced to skip it either. Those who insist on every day of the week being open for commerce are raising capital as a Law over man and God.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2017, 05:26:14 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.

In what way is it to the well being of Jewish or Adventist or Muslim workers, who are commanded to rest on other days?  It might be good for us, but from your logic, we might as well make the work free days Saturday and Friday, since in the case of Jews and Muslims a religious obligation to rest exists on those days, whereas from our perspective it does not.  The Golden Rule is still in effect.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2017, 05:27:42 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.

In what way is it to the well being of Jewish or Adventist or Muslim workers, who are commanded to rest on other days?  It might be good for us, but from your logic, we might as well make the work free days Saturday and Friday, since in the case of Jews and Muslims a religious obligation to rest exists on those days, whereas from our perspective it does not.  The Golden Rule is still in effect.


Do they matter? Only a Christian society matters...doncha know!



PS: I do understand that in Poland the societal makeup is different....but since most of the discussion is not specifically about there....
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 05:29:17 PM by DeniseDenise »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2017, 05:29:58 PM »
I'm not going to follow Lepanto's line of thinking- I don't think the democratic/ majority angle should really be taken that far. Democracy is not sacred and not even expedient at all times.

What I do think is this:

As human beings, of any religious persuasion, we should not be working every day and we should be protected from our employers forcing us to work every day. We should have free days to spend as we choose, enjoying time with our families or other necessary human activities. Having a legally sanctioned day of rest helps ensure this.

As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays unless our line of work is some essential service like ER doctors, firefighters, etc. We should be able to attend liturgy and have the rest of the day free for rest and leisure, or for meditation on the sacred mysteries as far as we are able.

In a majority Christian country like Poland, establishing Sunday as the day of rest makes the most practical sense. Now, if our economy were rational and oriented toward satisfying human needs above all else, in all likelihood we could in fact have four day workweeks. In that case, sure, make Friday and Saturday days of rest too. As it is, capital's relentless thirst for profit over human interests would make that very difficult. But if the labor movement and their allies can carve out at least one day of rest out of the week for everyone, that's a win for humanity.

Another possibility is something that was done for a while in the Soviet Union, where workers were assigned a day off every week- it could be any day. Group A gets Mondays, Group B gets Tuesdays, etc. I don't like that but I suppose it would be the most religiously impartial. Since I'm a Christian though I can't be impartial here. I regard religious toleration as a good thing and a practical necessity, but not something to be raised to an absolute. All days can't be equally sacred, or none of them will be. What lurks behind a lot of modern laicite is the One True God, Capital, for whom every day and every hour is sacred and the thirst for fresh blood is insatiable.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2017, 05:43:07 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

Not sure what Latin has to do with any of this. I suppose I have a tendency to learn from history. Religious wars tore across Europe for much of early modernity and before it. And many people unnecessarily died because of those same wars. And you'd be surprised that how mundane rulings on who could work and when were involved in many of those disputes. While separation of Church and State is not achievable in any pure form, I find striving for it better than the alternative, which is to breed discrimination and hatred which ultimately lead to violence.

And to be quite honest, I'm also a fan of the Enlightenment. If I find unjust laws to be too odious, I'd openly advocate revolt and sedition. I'd much rather live the consequences of those actions than live with the consequences of suffering the actions of some rube who mindlessly follows authority as they punish me for daring to exercise my own conscience.

In answer to Iconodule's concerns, however, I get it. My only problem is why can't the unions do the ultimatum themselves? Why turn to state power and force this on those who aren't a part of them or of a different religion?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2017, 05:49:11 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.

I'm not going to follow Lepanto's line of thinking- I don't think the democratic/ majority angle should really be taken that far. Democracy is not sacred and not even expedient at all times.

What I do think is this:

As human beings, of any religious persuasion, we should not be working every day and we should be protected from our employers forcing us to work every day. We should have free days to spend as we choose, enjoying time with our families or other necessary human activities. Having a legally sanctioned day of rest helps ensure this.

As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays unless our line of work is some essential service like ER doctors, firefighters, etc. We should be able to attend liturgy and have the rest of the day free for rest and leisure, or for meditation on the sacred mysteries as far as we are able.

In a majority Christian country like Poland, establishing Sunday as the day of rest makes the most practical sense. Now, if our economy were rational and oriented toward satisfying human needs above all else, in all likelihood we could in fact have four day workweeks. In that case, sure, make Friday and Saturday days of rest too. As it is, capital's relentless thirst for profit over human interests would make that very difficult. But if the labor movement and their allies can carve out at least one day of rest out of the week for everyone, that's a win for humanity.

Another possibility is something that was done for a while in the Soviet Union, where workers were assigned a day off every week- it could be any day. Group A gets Mondays, Group B gets Tuesdays, etc. I don't like that but I suppose it would be the most religiously impartial. Since I'm a Christian though I can't be impartial here. I regard religious toleration as a good thing and a practical necessity, but not something to be raised to an absolute. All days can't be equally sacred, or none of them will be. What lurks behind a lot of modern laicite is the One True God, Capital, for whom every day and every hour is sacred and the thirst for fresh blood is insatiable.

I guess that works. I suppose I'm pretty jaded on the subject of the efficacy of labor protections, could just be a side effect of living in the US, though.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2017, 05:51:21 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

Not sure what Latin has to do with any of this. I suppose I have a tendency to learn from history. Religious wars tore across Europe for much of early modernity and before it. And many people unnecessarily died because of those same wars. And you'd be surprised that how mundane rulings on who could work and when were involved in many of those disputes. While separation of Church and State is not achievable in any pure form, I find striving for it better than the alternative, which is to breed discrimination and hatred which ultimately lead to violence.

And to be quite honest, I'm also a fan of the Enlightenment. If I find unjust laws to be too odious, I'd openly advocate revolt and sedition. I'd much rather live the consequences of those actions than live with the consequences of suffering the actions of some rube who mindlessly follows authority as they punish me for daring to exercise my own conscience.

In answer to Iconodule's concerns, however, I get it. My only problem is why can't the unions do the ultimatum themselves? Why turn to state power and force this on those who aren't a part of them or of a different religion?

Aside from the religious angle, unions don't really have much of a mechanism to work with outside state power. It's either that or strike and hope that the bossman's heart is moved before your children die.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2017, 05:52:33 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.



Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?


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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2017, 05:59:09 PM »
Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?
Virtually all people in this country either have to work or starve, except for kids.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2017, 06:26:20 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.



Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?

Seems that way, yes. Until the Singularity, at least. It would be nice if until then, though, the law didn't make it easier to starve than absolutely necessary.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 06:27:46 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2017, 07:24:58 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why?

Because it reeks of trytoohardism and it sucks.

But...isn't trytoohardism compatible with Orthodoxy?

(I've seen worse Christian memes, come on).
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2017, 08:02:55 PM »
I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

Quote
Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/10/17/Who-s-More-Generous-Liberals-or-Conservatives
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

And, to respond to this argument, I would point out that I would consider "Fox News Christians" being uncharitable to be a result of the heretical "Sola Fida" Protestant belief, which affects morally heterodox churches as well. The Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) believe that such people who don't do works of charity will most likely, as hypocrites, be condemned to eternal fire and everlasting pain.

If someone like Francis of Assisi could find happiness living a life as a beggar, is it really being poor in of itself that leads to unhappiness? I would much rather be a beggar than a rich person who doesn't find peace and sits on my death bed miserable that I was selfish my entire life.

Do you think Kim Kardashian is happy with her existence? Or was Robin Williams happy with his life? Or was Stalin near the end of his life happy?

And, as I've pointed out - or at least was getting at - how do you know that person may not find happiness in their life, even if poverty in of itself always led to unhappiness, and manage to break away from where they are in society? Regardless of how "aristocratic" our American society is, you should read literature about moving up the ranks as a nobody in an actual aristocratic society, like "Les Miserables" or Gogol's works like "The Nose" or "The Overcoat."

And REGARDLESS if you even deny all of these things, what good is it if Lazarus finds eternal bliss while the rich man burns with the devil and his angels for all eternity?

(Luke 16:19-31)

"'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' saith the Lord?"

(Romans 12:19)

Quote
That, or you're not as funny as you think you are. Not that I have much room to talk, of course.

Yeah, it's probably the latter. Nobody here would figure out I copied and pasted the "Lorem Ipsum" from Microsoft Word in its Latin nonsense.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.

You spooked me with that word.

And consider it my conservative upbringing, but I'm of the opinion that how "diversity" is understood by the Left is being used to segregate society will eventually lead to greater monstrosities than anything we have now. That is, the "it's us versus them mentality" that currently exists fueled on emotion and a false sense of moral supremacy / self-righteousness rather than any semblance of love or logic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/02/korryn-gaines-is-the-ninth-black-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-this-year/?utm_term=.0a67c2589d3e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnoIsAk66g

I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity, not segregation and antagonism.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2017, 08:59:43 PM »
I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

Quote
Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/10/17/Who-s-More-Generous-Liberals-or-Conservatives
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

And, to respond to this argument, I would point out that I would consider "Fox News Christians" being uncharitable to be a result of the heretical "Sola Fida" Protestant belief, which affects morally heterodox churches as well. The Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) believe that such people who don't do works of charity will most likely, as hypocrites, be condemned to eternal fire and everlasting pain.

So it's "no true conservative," eh? Well, guess I can't argue with that. Have fun with your boot stomping a different looking face forever.

If someone like Francis of Assisi could find happiness living a life as a beggar, is it really being poor in of itself that leads to unhappiness? I would much rather be a beggar than a rich person who doesn't find peace and sits on my death bed miserable that I was selfish my entire life.

Do you think Kim Kardashian is happy with her existence? Or was Robin Williams happy with his life? Or was Stalin near the end of his life happy?

And, as I've pointed out - or at least was getting at - how do you know that person may not find happiness in their life, even if poverty in of itself always led to unhappiness, and manage to break away from where they are in society? Regardless of how "aristocratic" our American society is, you should read literature about moving up the ranks as a nobody in an actual aristocratic society, like "Les Miserables" or Gogol's works like "The Nose" or "The Overcoat."

And REGARDLESS if you even deny all of these things, what good is it if Lazarus finds eternal bliss while the rich man burns with the devil and his angels for all eternity?

(Luke 16:19-31)

"'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' saith the Lord?"

(Romans 12:19)

Quote
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Can't decide if your rhapsodizing on the virtues of (other peoples's) poverty is creepily irrelevant or just plain irrelevant.

Quote
That, or you're not as funny as you think you are. Not that I have much room to talk, of course.

Yeah, it's probably the latter. Nobody here would figure out I copied and pasted the "Lorem Ipsum" from Microsoft Word in its Latin nonsense.

I would've caught it if I gave enough of a crap to give it more than a millisecond's worth of a glance. After all these years I tend to just tune out all the showoffy Latin on these boards.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.

You spooked me with that word.

And consider it my conservative upbringing, but I'm of the opinion that how "diversity" is understood by the Left is being used to segregate society will eventually lead to greater monstrosities than anything we have now. That is, the "it's us versus them mentality" that currently exists fueled on emotion and a false sense of moral supremacy / self-righteousness rather than any semblance of love or logic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/02/korryn-gaines-is-the-ninth-black-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-this-year/?utm_term=.0a67c2589d3e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnoIsAk66g

I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity, not segregation and antagonism.

Another artifact of your upbringing, the assumption that criticism of American conservatives=support for the American Left. I cast a pox on both your houses, just for different reasons.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 09:00:47 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2017, 03:14:49 PM »
I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity ... .

Good luck with that.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2017, 03:56:00 PM »
As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays

Do we? I've never completely understood this line of reasoning. Sunday is not Sabbath.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2017, 04:11:18 PM »
As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays

Do we? I've never completely understood this line of reasoning. Sunday is not Sabbath.

True. Saturday is the day of rest. Sunday is the day of worship.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2017, 04:16:42 PM »
Pretty sure that's a false dichotomy. The Jews worshiped on the Sabbath.

Also, I know that at the very least Justin Martyr argued that the Sabbath had been moved to Sunday.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 04:17:38 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2017, 04:28:50 PM »
There seems to be some varying views of it but most of traditional Christian witness seems to be that the sabbath requirement was translated to the Lord’s day. And in some places the requirement is extended to major feasts like Christmas.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2017, 04:33:28 PM »
And as Antonis mentioned the martyrdom of St Cosmas of Aetolia has something to say about this.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 04:33:38 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2017, 09:33:33 PM »
I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity ... .

Good luck with that.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:37:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2017, 12:31:36 AM »
In my home country blue laws still exist to a large extent.  Most shopping malls do open on Sundays, besides some drugstores and bakeries, but most shops are closed.  The strongest opposition to opening stores comes from the unions that represent the retail store employees, but there's no significant demand for it by consumers either.  Of course, Saturdays are fierce shopping days, as the only day of the week when most workers have free time to shop, be it for groceries or cars.
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