Author Topic: Poland to ban Sunday shopping  (Read 3673 times)

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 12:00:01 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Xavier

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2017, 12:05:31 PM »
Excellent. Poland is one country where Jesus still freely reigns as King of kings. The bishops of Poland consecrated the country to the Lord's kingship some time ago, in the presence of the President, imploring Him to rule over every area of their lives. Abortion is almost always illegal.

To keep a day of rest devoted to God and family while abstaining from unnecessary servile work is a tenet of natural law that binds all men. It is necessary to be delivered from slavery to work and idolatry of money and to experience the freedom of serving God and being devoted to Him. The first 3 commandments pertain to love of God. The Decalogue demands this act of our keeping faith with God as one of the most important signs of fidelity to His covenant. The people of Israel did so not only as individuals but also as a people. Christian nations shoud do the same. Good for Poland.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:12:31 PM by Xavier »
Locution, Aug 18, 2014: "They will realize that I have released an ocean of graces which have changed their darkness into light. They will realize that they have been freed from the past century of diabolical control. They will also know that this great gift has come through the consecration of Russia made by the Holy Father in communion with all the bishops in the world. http://locutions-forever.org/locutions/show/2014-08-18/1-the-overcoming-of-separation

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2017, 12:30:29 PM »
Let shops operate as they see fit.

If we actually did that, they'd steal labor off the streets and keep them in fetters, and sell food to buyers full of sawdust and toxins.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why? I think this is one instance where the ends justify the means.
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why? I think this is one instance where the ends justify the means.

"Catholic Memes: Eastern Edition"? What in earth or heaven could justify that? ;)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2017, 01:07:26 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why?

Because it reeks of trytoohardism and it sucks.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2017, 01:08:24 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

I think that's the wrong angle to look at this from. The article mentioned the role of trade unions in supporting this law- I suspect that has at least as much importance as the attitudes of the Catholic Church. The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays.  If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc. And even though Catholics are rightly supporting it, it is really not something being imposed by Catholics on the unbelievers- there is a whole history in the socialist and labor movement of advocating Sunday as a day of rest. The firmly anti-religious Proudhon for instance was a firm advocate for it.

I suppose. Without the increased social safety net to cover the lost wages, won't it do more harm than good though?
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2017, 01:11:32 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday? 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:17 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:54 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.


as usual, you are missing my point.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2017, 01:14:09 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:00 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.


as usual, you are missing my point.

Most of us don't view the forums as a school room, and consequently forget to view you as the school marm.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:40 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2017, 01:19:24 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2017, 01:22:40 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2017, 01:23:12 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2017, 01:26:55 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

I don't find a shred of logic in this post, up to and including your omission of the fact that, when you and I were kids, here in the United States, nobody but 7-11 was open on on Sundays, and not even that in some states.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2017, 01:28:48 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2017, 01:29:09 PM »
There was no 'omission'....

Discussing the 'good ole days' when they are no longer here....does not really contribute...

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2017, 01:30:47 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

Um, the Polish unions, bishops, and politicians are enacting this law themselves. I doubt the opinions of Americans are particularly on their radar. It has nothing to do with "we know better"- obviously, in this case, the Polish decision-makers are considerably wiser than those in the US.

Quote
All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

That's a non sequitur. Whether I buy milk on Sunday or not has no impact on the fact that retailers are open on Sundays.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2017, 01:30:54 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.


if the corporation does not -make- their operating costs in stores on sundays...they are losing that 'profit' that their investors wish.....

it would change so fast your head would spin.....a corporation would not keep stores open on sundays if each and every sunday COST them payroll and utilities and gained them zero sales.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
There was no 'omission'....

Discussing the 'good ole days' when they are no longer here....does not really contribute...

But dismissing "Americans" as some perpetually guilty group, and arbitrarily limiting who they are to just the generations and geographies that suit the slander, is a great contribution.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2017, 01:32:07 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.


if the corporation does not -make- their operating costs in stores on sundays...they are losing that 'profit' that their investors wish.....

it would change so fast your head would spin.....a corporation would not keep stores open on sundays if each and every sunday COST them payroll and utilities and gained them zero sales.

Holy New Theologian Adam Smith, pray for us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2017, 01:33:36 PM »

Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

I've separated each section by the different fonts.

1. So the ends justify the means in terms of ending the suffering of those who don't really have an opinion to voice?
Would it be ethical to euthanize homeless people while they are sleeping because it would end his / her suffering and the suffering of society?
Or would it be ethical to euthanize a man with cancer who has a 30% survival rate while he is sleeping?

After all, you end the sufferings that these people will have to endure eventually and possibly die anyways...

Or maybe perhaps it's unethical because you are prohibiting a possibility of eventual happiness or positive experiences of life? Maybe one of these people becomes a nun or a monk and finds peace, or perhaps they - after hitting rock bottom - get back up and become a revolutionary to society! Or perhaps they freeze to death or cancer kills him. I think prohibiting such possibilities of happiness, even in light of inevitable suffering, is immoral, especially when they are given no option to voice an opinion on their own suicide.

I understood that society often puts people in terrible conditions - and yes, the adoption system is screwed up, as is our government - but I don't think the alternative is "baby murder;" rather, a reform of the institutions in place to deal with such problems would be adequate although not ideal of course.

I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

2. I personally don't slut shame, and shame on the people who do. Honestly, in terms of the sin of lust, I am the biggest whore and I deserve to be stoned to death; we should love our sisters, and support them when they are pregnant, and to those who criticize the grave sins of others while ignoring their own grave sins, "anathema sit!"

And I hate your continuum fallacy. So, if "Sunday worship" and a societal normalization of abstinence for the purposes of striving for ascetic goals will reduce the number of pregnancies, while a societal normalization of casual hook-up one-stand sex increases the number of pregnancies, both are just as bad as one another because pregnancies will inevitably happen?

Say I wanted to build a house out of brick or wood, but out of the heavier material. I measure all the logs of wood I have, and all of the bricks I have, and I find that on average, the bricks are way heavier than the wood. However, there is one log which is heavier than a brick, therefore it doesn't matter whether or not I build my house out of bricks or wood?

No, I agree that abstinence culture is better than the alternative. I just think trying to legislate it into law, especially when some of the people in this thread and similar act like such laws are the second coming of Christ is not going to actually change hearts and minds. Don't forget about the smug hypocrisy of the respectable cultural Christian in your moral calculus.

3. If a woman is coerced to have an abortion by her boyfriend / husband and she doesn't want to, or maybe she has the resources to care for the child anyways, wouldn't talking to those people and offering them "devil's advocate" for their immoral choice be better? Plus, see 1.

Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

Plus, regardless if you believe a society should be accepting of abortion or not, my question to you is the following: Why the hell should I be having my well-earned money to be taken from me against my will to fund programs that encourage abortions as well as give almost nothing but abortions? Not to mention the vile corruption that may or may not be going on in that wonderful agency. I would argue this is the new Herod.

See directly above.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

We ought to burn you at the stake for such a comment, you heretical piece of garbage!
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Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.

This is ole' Tocqueville's argument - that having a religious culture does not necessarily equivocate to having a doctrine subscribing population; and he (along with Mill) argues that religious diversity encourages fidelity to one's religious tradition. I don't know; in the long run, we can see the results of such apathy and "diversity" in the secular Western world, both from the 60's onwards to now and even in eras before that, like Nazi Germany, as previously pointed out. While I agree with the former argument, I would argue the contrary and say that there is definitely a correlation between culture and fidelity. I think those who were faithful to Orthodoxy under the Tsar were much more religious and Orthodox in their doctrine than most of us who have had to interract with the secular world (not that the Tsar was always the most perfect example of Christian humility or an ideal Christian government).

So pious while they were beating their wives and carrying out pogroms.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2017, 01:36:25 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2017, 01:39:15 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Exactly again, and "end thread."
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2017, 01:50:10 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:51:24 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2017, 01:54:02 PM »
Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

You don't calculate 7/8ths as "some"?

In addition, you seem to be losing sight here of the fact that the money-making "commodity" in question is human souls. Want less responsibility as an owner? Hire robots or farm animals.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:55:42 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2017, 01:56:35 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2017, 01:58:08 PM »
I'm no longer going to hang out with Antonis on Sundays.  Thanks, OP!
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2017, 02:02:21 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2017, 02:05:07 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Your struggling small business owner example source of issues has nothing to do with forced closing one day a week. We don't have a rational heavily regulated economy that favors small business ownership and equalitarianism rather than the purported "efficiencies" of large corporations. Large corporations and large accumulations of capital are the problem. What we need is to put resources in the hands of average people and let them produce real goods and services.

BTW I'm talking about America, not Poland.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:06:10 PM by RobS »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2017, 02:05:28 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2017, 02:06:35 PM »
Want less responsibility as an owner? Hire robots

I think that's the only real long term solution, yes. But without robust social safety nets it will be a cure worse than the disease.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:08:02 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2017, 02:07:19 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.

Good point.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2017, 02:12:48 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Your struggling small business owner example source of issues has nothing to do with forced closing one day a week. We don't have a rational heavily regulated economy that favors small business ownership and equalitarianism rather than the purported "efficiencies" of large corporations. Large corporations and large accumulations of capital are the problem. What we need is to put resources in the hands of average people and let them produce real goods and services.

I know, but that's a pig's eye until/unless we hit the Singularity. I'm trying to be pragmatic. Asteriktos did make a good point, though.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2017, 02:13:46 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.
Put more money in the pockets of working people so they can consume more at the small business. Cut taxes for them as well. There's policies that can create an environment for small businesses to flourish, but the politicians currently in power care more about helping out corporate capitalists who don't need it.

If it was up to me I'd force people into working less. Do we really need to shop 6 days a week?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:14:48 PM by RobS »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2017, 02:19:28 PM »
It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.
Thank you.

Everyone, I am happy to respect the reasoning of the OP and keep this thread in my section so long as the discussion does not become obviously political. So far, it has remained faith and market-based. Let's keep it that way.

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:20:20 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2017, 02:43:34 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

2.
This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.
I'm not sure I understand. St. Kosmas Aitolos' own martyrdom was likely a result of his campaign to have the weekly bazaar moved from Sunday to Saturday, not only for the sake of morning worship, but also because conducting business isn't suitable for the Lord's day. This is a precept that isn't unique to him, but can be found in the life advice given to ordinary believers by Russian fathers, too, for instance. Sundays and great feasts are properly observed with prayer and rest, rather than labor. This is observed in monasteries, too. I agree, of course, that it also has to do with the well-being of workers, but do not believe that is all it is.

3.
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?
I do not know about Poland, but in my experience it is common enough already for family-owned businesses to be closed one day a week. I would not be surprised if a large number of Catholic Poles already close shop for part or all of the day Sunday.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:44:15 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2017, 02:46:55 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.

I'm not sure but I think in Poland, due to zoning laws, small businesses have a bit more protection from predatory mega-corps than they do in the American neoliberal paradise.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2017, 02:55:58 PM »
Somewhat relatedly, I remember walking out of liturgy in Athens' Metropolis Square to discover a large protest to end the Sunday workday at the nearby Monastiraki. At first, I was happy, until I realized none of those involved had gone to church. I thought their protest would've been more effective had they walked out of work to attend liturgy. That would've gotten hierarchs involved for sure, and would've been a much more worthy protest.

Ironically, I walked by about an hour later to discover paid laborers taking down the bleachers that had been set up for the protest.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:07:48 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2017, 03:58:04 PM »
To all the economy experts here (it seems jobs are the new number one priority for some): It won't hurt Polish economy in the least and endanger zero jobs. As I stated above, for example in Germany and Austria, stores are closed on Sundays. Period. You can go to gas stations and buy something in their little stores in case of an "emergency" - for triple prices. Works wonderfully. So far, our economy could cope, we are not bankrupt or something. People buy more on Fridays and Saturdays, that's it.
If you allow stores to open 12h a day, 7 days a week, you only favor the big international companies which can manage the staffing. The owner of a small shop, working alone, will not be able to compete - unless he works 84h a week with no time off ever.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:08:30 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:23 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.
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