Author Topic: Poland to ban Sunday shopping  (Read 2125 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
Excellent!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 01:03:08 PM »
Great idea.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 01:12:30 PM »
Things seem to be going the opposite direction in the U.S.  :-\

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 01:34:03 PM »
I should've titled it "phase out" rather than "ban."
The president has also not signed it yet - but considering the political allegiance of the President, it will probably pass.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 05:00:03 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 05:29:11 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

The only people I feel bad for here are the small business owners. To quote one of the parts of A Christmas Carol that almost never gets adapted for some reason:

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In time the bells ceased, and the bakers were shut up; and yet there was a genial shadowing forth of all these dinners and the progress of their cooking, in the thawed blotch of wet above each baker’s oven; where the pavement smoked as if its stones were cooking too.

“Is there a peculiar flavour in what you sprinkle from your torch?” asked Scrooge.

“There is. My own.”

“Would it apply to any kind of dinner on this day?” asked Scrooge.

“To any kindly given. To a poor one most.”

“Why to a poor one most?” asked Scrooge.

“Because it needs it most.”

“Spirit,” said Scrooge, after a moment’s thought, “I wonder you, of all the beings in the many worlds about us, should desire to cramp these people’s opportunities of innocent enjoyment.”

“I!” cried the Spirit.

“You would deprive them of their means of dining every seventh day, often the only day on which they can be said to dine at all,” said Scrooge. “Wouldn’t you?”

“I!” cried the Spirit.

“You seek to close these places on the Seventh Day?” said Scrooge. “And it comes to the same thing.”

“I seek!” exclaimed the Spirit.

“Forgive me if I am wrong. It has been done in your name, or at least in that of your family,” said Scrooge.

“There are some upon this earth of yours,” returned the Spirit, “who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 06:06:32 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2017, 06:28:03 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 06:32:05 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Dominika

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 07:11:46 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.

Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 07:17:20 PM »
The only people I feel bad for here are the small business owners. To quote one of the parts of A Christmas Carol that almost never gets adapted for some reason:

170-odd years later, Shopkeeper Nation retailers remain mandatorily closed only on Christmas and Easter, but Sundays are strictly no-more-than-six-hour workdays, whether you're a small business that doesn't open for much longer than that even on weekdays, or a supermarket that runs from dawn to midnight.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 07:19:37 PM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.

Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.

I did not know that, and I apologize - however, hopefully you can understand the reasoning behind it. It was a no win situation man.

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« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:41:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 07:42:23 PM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 07:43:07 PM »
That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

Why is the goal of living to be responsibility free, even for one day every week?  It's more work to attain that than, say, living to see responsibility done well (of which I'm not an exemplar, to be clear).  Then when one's R&R is interrupted, maybe one is less grumpy about it?  I was actually thinking about these two perspectives today, though, so I'm not trying to pick on you.

Anyway, that said, I have mixed feelings about the idea of all shops being told when/when not to operate, even if it's for Sundays off.  I'm sure that has almost everything to do with my frame of reference, though.  Ideally, it wouldn't need to be forced.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 07:45:36 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?
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For our impious, godless, and faithless rulers, the persecutors of our holy Faith and Fatherland, the members of our parliament who hate and wrong us, and for their repentance, let us pray to the Lord.
--Petition, Kalavrytan Rite

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 08:19:37 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.
Quote
For our impious, godless, and faithless rulers, the persecutors of our holy Faith and Fatherland, the members of our parliament who hate and wrong us, and for their repentance, let us pray to the Lord.
--Petition, Kalavrytan Rite

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 08:30:27 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2017, 08:31:23 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!
It's called the avaton, not even female animals are allowed.
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For our impious, godless, and faithless rulers, the persecutors of our holy Faith and Fatherland, the members of our parliament who hate and wrong us, and for their repentance, let us pray to the Lord.
--Petition, Kalavrytan Rite

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 09:29:12 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.


+1

I enthusiastically and emphatically agree with my Finnish friend, which is an odd plot twist in the grand history of this forum; I am tempted to place in my jurisdiction “But my heart belongs to Finland”, which is an altogether novel experience.  Perhaps Alpo we might compromise with the UOC-NA?  Another EP autonomous church, and one with particularly good liturgics. Yours are good also although I got the impression you chaps missed the opportunity to celebrate a Kyriopascha on the Gregorian calendar; if true this makes me a Sad Panda.

Now, seriously, in robust defense of Alpo’s position: People sometimes run out of food on Sundays.  I believe in 24/7/365 retail.  “Blue Laws” like this are wrong for several reasons:

- People sometimes need to buy things on Sunday due to emergencies or planning errors.
- Sunday is in some situations the only time a family can go shopping, after church.
- This measure violates the Golden Rule, the precept of our Lord, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Suppose Charedi Jews or Seventh Day Adventists or Muslims seized power and banned shopping on Friday or Saturday?  As it is, there are already “blue laws” applicable to Friday in several Islamic countries.  Such laws, regardless of the day of the week they apply to, are discriminatory.

What is more, regarding the Sabbath, I consider as a theologoumemnon that our duty to keep it holy is quite possibly fulfilled through the observance of the Great Sabbath, in which our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ reposed in the tomb.  I believe the Sabbath law in Judaism was intended to prophetically foreshadow the Great Sabbath.  What is more, the Jews were over-applying it, as was pointed out by our Lord more than once.  Lastly, there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath has migrated to Sunday; Sunday is holy by virtue of its own merit, as the day of the resurrection of our Lord, the glorious day in which death was swallowed up in victory.  It is ontologically different; not a day of rest but of rejoicing.  I am of the opinion that people should rejoice on Sunday and enjoy God’s creation, which could include aspects of commerce.

You may disagree with me on this interpretation, and I accept that, but what I reject is the use of police power, the use of secular law, to enforce what is essentially a religious decision.  The Oriental Orthodox were historically persecuted by the Byzantine Empire for a similiar difference of opinion, which is why I, in general, oppose the use of the law to enforce specific religious interpretations that have the effect of depriving members of one religious belief of certain freedoms, for the pure satisfaction of members of another faith.  The Golden Rule applies to Jews and Muslims; we cannot criticize them for laws which make Sunday worship difficult or impossible in their lands and then in virtue of the same breath economically disadvantage them by proscribing them from working on days where historically they have worked.

People should learn to exercise self-control with regards to their beliefs about Sunday church attendance.  If the faith of a Roman Catholic is so weak that they require the state to intercede to prevent them from shopping or buying alcohol or other things on a Sunday lest they fail to attend church and keep their Sunday obligation, there is a more substantial problem than the mere lack of faith.

Lastly, the decline or lack of availability of midweek services in the Orthodox Church is lamentable.  Of the Orthodox churches, only the Armenians lack a midweek Eucharist, although they have prayers (and I believe feast days are also celebrated with a Eucharist on days other than Sunday).  The Byzantine Typikon prescribes beautiful services for every day of the week, with unique troparia and unique themes.  The Syriac Orthodox do not normally, except on a feast, serve the Qurbono except on Wednesday, Friday, Sunday, and I think, Saturday, according to my catechism, but the Shimo, our book of daily prayer, contains rich prayer services with a specific theme for every day of the week. 

While the Sunday Eucharist should remain the first service, the pressures of modern life offer us an opportunity to revitalize these midweek services.  Every day should be a holy day.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2017, 09:38:32 PM »
Look what you did, Antonis...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2017, 09:46:40 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

The irony.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2017, 09:47:56 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!
It's called the avaton, not even female animals are allowed.

Love it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:06 PM »
Excellent!

I am of such a vintage that I can recall when all the department stores were closed on Sundays in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian.  There were a few grocery stores and pharmacies open, but only for limited (afternoon) hours.

I can also recall precisely how and when this changed.   There was a now defunct chain--Hills--that decided to be open on Sunday afternoons.  "Don't worry", the Christian community was told, "it will only be for a few hours".   2 - 6 quickly became 1 - 7 and within a year it was 10 - 10 just like any other day of the week.

The chain is went bankrupt and is no more.

God's sense of humor--or justice.

But Hills crumbled the Sunday Blue Laws and now Sunday is virtually no different than any other day of the week.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 11:27:44 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:28:36 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 11:40:46 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: One of the 10 Commandments, and a description of said commandment that are applicable to all of the Church. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply a nation state enforcing justice.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:50:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2017, 11:45:11 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2017, 11:53:42 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

Shouldn't the basis of law be Christian morality ("GASP!")? And I didn't realize that unbelievers live such miserable and impoverished lives that they need to work on Sundays

And honestly, without such a rule, think about the reverse - how many Christians are in lower-class jobs who, just to survive food-wise, violate their conscience to appease a management that requires specific service on Sunday? (At least for those poor who take their Faith seriously)

And the logic of "not forcing people at gun-point" is a broad argument that can be used to abolish any law, said laws which are supposed to reflect the Justice of God (which is what the Old Testament laws were - disciplinary laws that reflected God's justice).

Then again, this is a theological argument - but being the radical college-student I am, to what extent is a secular government allowed to not reflect Christian morality / justice? Should this be an incessant goal that we should pursue nonstop?

Regardless of this being a theological argument, I don't think the culture of a country reflecting Christian Traditions is necessarily a bad thing.

I mean, in America, we still got a bunch of work to do.



(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:00:19 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 12:10:53 AM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

Shouldn't the basis of law be Christian morality ("GASP!")?

There's Christian morality and then there's Christian morality. Punishing murder is a Christian principle, but so is stoning adulterers if you're going by the OT. And while we're at it, why not forced conversions? Why not take a page from our Muslim "co-beligerents" and install burqas to prevent lust?

And I didn't realize that unbelievers live such miserable and impoverished lives that they need to work on Sundays

And honestly, without such a rule, think about the reverse - how many Christians are in lower-class jobs who, just to survive food-wise, violate their conscience to appease a management that requires specific service on Sunday? (At least for those poor who take their Faith seriously)

Welcome to life in a modern capitalist society. Do you want to pay the taxes that will make up for their lost wages?

And the logic of "not forcing people at gun-point" is a broad argument that can be used to abolish any law, said laws which are supposed to reflect the Justice of God (which is what the Old Testament laws were - disciplinary laws that reflected God's justice).

Then again, this is a theological argument - but being the radical college-student I am, to what extent is a secular government allowed to not reflect Christian morality / justice? Should this be an incessant goal that we should pursue nonstop?

Regardless of this being a theological argument, I don't think the culture of a country reflecting Christian Traditions is necessarily a bad thing.

I mean, in America, we still got a bunch of work to do.

See above.



(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

Hardee-har-har. You and wgw should get together and stroke each other's egos.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:13:11 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 12:16:41 AM »
Also, gotta love the South Park reference in your clever little picture. I'm sure Parker and Stone would have been executed a long time ago in the ideal theonomy.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:19:50 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 12:34:41 AM »
Also, gotta love the South Park reference in your clever little picture. I'm sure Parker and Stone would have been executed a long time ago in the ideal theonomy.

Hey man, I'm just stealing images I find funny on the internet.

And while admittedly as a teenager I watched South Park a lot, I loathe it now and find it rather immature - and they like to be the "moral authority" on manners while portraying ideas they don't agree with in a vulgar manner, making Cartman possess whatever ideology they disagree with.

And while by no means would I call for their execution, I find it disgusting how they normalize such blasphemy in a repulsive and vile sense - the AA episode comes to mind.

They also perpetuated the idea in their Easter da-Vinci parody episode that it is better to overthrow a church's authority if Jesus Christ visits you and tells you so. Certainly the devil doesn't work in coincidences?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:35:34 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 12:52:03 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Luke

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2017, 12:55:28 AM »
Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
[/quote]So what do you think of shops closed on Sundays?

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2017, 01:34:44 AM »
Let shops operate as they see fit.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2017, 01:38:56 AM »
That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

Why is the goal of living to be responsibility free, even for one day every week?

I don't like being told what to do. Much less living according to clock or calendar.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2017, 01:44:01 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.

But this basis on "common ground" seems implausible, because even though various religions have some venerable aspects of it, and generally they are consistent morally speaking, there are clear variations of what is seen as "moral" and "just," some of which are gravely sinful from a Christian perspective.

For example, Islam promotes polygamy and divorce, while at the same time advocating conquest and subduing others from its origins.

Hinduism made sex a major part of religious belief, even carving statues of fornication on these temples, which tends to shock Western tourists. There was also a historical problem of under age temple prostitutes which is still very much present to this day. Also, need I mention the adherents of Kali, who tortured people to adore their demon from hell?

Pharisaical Judaism is self explanatory, as Saint Paul "progressed far" in his own religion while living immorally.

And then you have so much "Christian" denominations which are so varied in their own morality that there is essentially a sect for every single grave sin in the book - Idolatry, Abortion, Drug Usage, Demonic Spirituality, Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Greed, etc.

Of course, all of these religions gradually over time gradually have become changed to be more in line with Christian morality - polygamy is taboo in less conservative sects of Islam, Hinduism has made an effort to try to minimize the significance or remove these problems, and Jews don't kill Christians anymore by stoning and crucifixion. This is all at the behest - historically - of Christian morality and international relations.

You can also prove objective moral Christian doctrine by looking at the correlation of consistent moral doctrine of what the majority of these religions believed and comparing it to Traditional Christian morality - Even though orgies were idolized in Pagan Rome, people still had a conception that "adultery" was morally wrong, as my letter from Pliny the Younger describes.
And you can use Christianity as the base as it is arguably the strictest of all ascetic religious traditions ("I say to you anybody who looks at a woman with lust commits adulterey with her in his heart.")
I also do not judge the conservative individuals in each of these sects - that is to the Great and Terrible Judge to decide, and I pray for their salvation, as I don't even know if I'll be saved - probably not.

And what exactly would this common ground be if it weren't for the pervasive influence of Christian morality, to check and balance when society decides to slightly change some aspects of it?

We've seen what happens when all of these moral apostates try to find "common ground." What ends up happening is that the majority, denying religious guidance, begins to distort their idea of morality and justice based on Not-Moral Relativism (that is, morality doesn't exist, but we will create arbitrary moral values that don't really exist and hate you if you don't stand up for these moral values that don't exist).

We have a tyranny of the majority when it comes to social issues - good luck bringing up a rational, not-hateful and non-emotional debate about abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, transgenderism, or drug legalization. And this isn't the only time secular governments deviated from Christian morality - for example, the genocide of Jews and other ethnic minority groups by the Nazis, Stalin killing at least 30 million, and all the Communist countries combined, Ancient Rome, etc. Today, even in an academic setting the topic of abortion is so taboo when I debated this in my Philosophy of Ethics class, it devolved into a guy raising his voice at me with venom, and me doing likewise, until the T.A. had to intervene.

And plus - I'm not completely sure if such people like Tray Parker would be executed in the context of a Christian nation - after all, Theodora - Justinian's wife - performed sex shows with a guy dressed up as a goose, and we still have woodcut carvings from Rome of blasphemous pornographic content - bishops having sex, a parody female pope, etc. (I can't find these but I don't want to look them up lol), and even though such acts were extremely detested, they honestly should be, they still were nonetheless allowed to propagate to such an extent that this industry probably was successful but shunned. Of course, we have the internet and television which can make public a lot of these things for everyone to see, but maybe Christian law could be adapted to fit these technological norms.

Remember when people were absolutely shocked at Life of Brian and protested it? I don't, as I wasn't even conceived at that point, but I wish we had some defense for Our Lord in this age of apostasy.

I think that the AA episode in particular should cause outrage. I don't know the Guy's opinions on the matter, but I feel as though Christ finds disgusting and blasphemous portrayals of His Mother more offensive than disgusting portrayals of Christ Himself.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:52:03 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2017, 01:55:50 AM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I don't even think an exception applies. Hospitals, police departments, and fire departments aren't "shopping."
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2017, 02:44:54 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.

But this basis on "common ground" seems implausible, because even though various religions have some venerable aspects of it, and generally they are consistent morally speaking, there are clear variations of what is seen as "moral" and "just," some of which are gravely sinful from a Christian perspective.

For example, Islam promotes polygamy and divorce, while at the same time advocating conquest and subduing others from its origins.

Hinduism made sex a major part of religious belief, even carving statues of fornication on these temples, which tends to shock Western tourists. There was also a historical problem of under age temple prostitutes which is still very much present to this day. Also, need I mention the adherents of Kali, who tortured people to adore their demon from hell?

Pharisaical Judaism is self explanatory, as Saint Paul "progressed far" in his own religion while living immorally.

And then you have so much "Christian" denominations which are so varied in their own morality that there is essentially a sect for every single grave sin in the book - Idolatry, Abortion, Drug Usage, Demonic Spirituality, Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Greed, etc.

Of course, all of these religions gradually over time gradually have become changed to be more in line with Christian morality - polygamy is taboo in less conservative sects of Islam, Hinduism has made an effort to try to minimize the significance or remove these problems, and Jews don't kill Christians anymore by stoning and crucifixion. This is all at the behest - historically - of Christian morality and international relations.

You can also prove objective moral Christian doctrine by looking at the correlation of consistent moral doctrine of what the majority of these religions believed and comparing it to Traditional Christian morality - Even though orgies were idolized in Pagan Rome, people still had a conception that "adultery" was morally wrong, as my letter from Pliny the Younger describes.
And you can use Christianity as the base as it is arguably the strictest of all ascetic religious traditions ("I say to you anybody who looks at a woman with lust commits adulterey with her in his heart.")
I also do not judge the conservative individuals in each of these sects - that is to the Great and Terrible Judge to decide, and I pray for their salvation, as I don't even know if I'll be saved - probably not.

And what exactly would this common ground be if it weren't for the pervasive influence of Christian morality, to check and balance when society decides to slightly change some aspects of it?

We've seen what happens when all of these moral apostates try to find "common ground." What ends up happening is that the majority, denying religious guidance, begins to distort their idea of morality and justice based on Not-Moral Relativism (that is, morality doesn't exist, but we will create arbitrary moral values that don't really exist and hate you if you don't stand up for these moral values that don't exist).

The common ground is "don't kill one another." Maybe it wasn't in the past, but it is now (even if I bought your claim that all moral development is ultimately traced back to direct Christian influence). Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

We have a tyranny of the majority when it comes to social issues - good luck bringing up a rational, not-hateful and non-emotional debate about abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, transgenderism, or drug legalization. And this isn't the only time secular governments deviated from Christian morality - for example, the genocide of Jews and other ethnic minority groups by the Nazis, Stalin killing at least 30 million, and all the Communist countries combined, Ancient Rome, etc. Today, even in an academic setting the topic of abortion is so taboo when I debated this in my Philosophy of Ethics class, it devolved into a guy raising his voice at me with venom, and me doing likewise, until the T.A. had to intervene.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

And plus - I'm not completely sure if such people like Tray Parker would be executed in the context of a Christian nation - after all, Theodora - Justinian's wife - performed sex shows with a guy dressed up as a goose, and we still have woodcut carvings from Rome of blasphemous pornographic content - bishops having sex, a parody female pope, etc. (I can't find these but I don't want to look them up lol), and even though such acts were extremely detested, they honestly should be, they still were nonetheless allowed to propagate to such an extent that this industry probably was successful but shunned. Of course, we have the internet and television which can make public a lot of these things for everyone to see, but maybe Christian law could be adapted to fit these technological norms.

Tell that to the monks who burned down synagogues and killed Hypatia. I'm sure some of them were baying for somebody like Theodora's blood and they could easily argue that their rulers were the ones who were compromising with the world.

Remember when people were absolutely shocked at Life of Brian and protested it? I don't, as I wasn't even conceived at that point, but I wish we had some defense for Our Lord in this age of apostasy.

I think that the AA episode in particular should cause outrage. I don't know the Guy's opinions on the matter, but I feel as though Christ finds disgusting and blasphemous portrayals of His Mother more offensive than disgusting portrayals of Christ Himself.

Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2017, 03:58:04 AM »

Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

I've separated each section by the different fonts.

1. So the ends justify the means in terms of ending the suffering of those who don't really have an opinion to voice?
Would it be ethical to euthanize homeless people while they are sleeping because it would end his / her suffering and the suffering of society?
Or would it be ethical to euthanize a man with cancer who has a 30% survival rate while he is sleeping?

After all, you end the sufferings that these people will have to endure eventually and possibly die anyways...

Or maybe perhaps it's unethical because you are prohibiting a possibility of eventual happiness or positive experiences of life? Maybe one of these people becomes a nun or a monk and finds peace, or perhaps they - after hitting rock bottom - get back up and become a revolutionary to society! Or perhaps they freeze to death or cancer kills him. I think prohibiting such possibilities of happiness, even in light of inevitable suffering, is immoral, especially when they are given no option to voice an opinion on their own suicide.

I understood that society often puts people in terrible conditions - and yes, the adoption system is screwed up, as is our government - but I don't think the alternative is "baby murder;" rather, a reform of the institutions in place to deal with such problems would be adequate although not ideal of course.

2. I personally don't slut shame, and shame on the people who do. Honestly, in terms of the sin of lust, I am the biggest whore and I deserve to be stoned to death; we should love our sisters, and support them when they are pregnant, and to those who criticize the grave sins of others while ignoring their own grave sins, "anathema sit!"

And I hate your continuum fallacy. So, if "Sunday worship" and a societal normalization of abstinence for the purposes of striving for ascetic goals will reduce the number of pregnancies, while a societal normalization of casual hook-up one-stand sex increases the number of pregnancies, both are just as bad as one another because pregnancies will inevitably happen?

Say I wanted to build a house out of brick or wood, but out of the heavier material. I measure all the logs of wood I have, and all of the bricks I have, and I find that on average, the bricks are way heavier than the wood. However, there is one log which is heavier than a brick, therefore it doesn't matter whether or not I build my house out of bricks or wood?

3. If a woman is coerced to have an abortion by her boyfriend / husband and she doesn't want to, or maybe she has the resources to care for the child anyways, wouldn't talking to those people and offering them "devil's advocate" for their immoral choice be better? Plus, see 1.

Plus, regardless if you believe a society should be accepting of abortion or not, my question to you is the following: Why the hell should I be having my well-earned money to be taken from me against my will to fund programs that encourage abortions as well as give almost nothing but abortions? Not to mention the vile corruption that may or may not be going on in that wonderful agency. I would argue this is the new Herod.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

We ought to burn you at the stake for such a comment, you heretical piece of garbage!
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Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.

This is ole' Tocqueville's argument - that having a religious culture does not necessarily equivocate to having a doctrine subscribing population; and he (along with Mill) argues that religious diversity encourages fidelity to one's religious tradition. I don't know; in the long run, we can see the results of such apathy and "diversity" in the secular Western world, both from the 60's onwards to now and even in eras before that, like Nazi Germany, as previously pointed out. While I agree with the former argument, I would argue the contrary and say that there is definitely a correlation between culture and fidelity. I think those who were faithful to Orthodoxy under the Tsar were much more religious and Orthodox in their doctrine than most of us who have had to interract with the secular world (not that the Tsar was always the most perfect example of Christian humility or an ideal Christian government).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:02:01 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 04:07:37 AM »
This is good for Poland. Here in Bavaria, shops are always closed on Sundays and several (church) holidays such as
Easter Monday, Good Friday, Assumption of Mary, etc. .
By law, there are four Sundays in the year in total where shops are allowed to open, but many do not anyway.
I think the argument that it costs job is nonsense:
Do you think people will actually buy more in total when shops are open on Sundays?
And if they do, will that not prove that they bought more than they probably would have needed?
I tend to think that the Sunday volume will be distributed more or less evenly among the other six days.
This would lead shops to hire more people for those weekdays, if needed.
It´s always been that way where I am living and I like it: Live slows down at least once a week,
everyone knows it and it is largely accepted.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:15:47 AM by Lepanto »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 05:07:12 AM »
Excellent!

I am of such a vintage that I can recall when all the department stores were closed on Sundays in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian.  There were a few grocery stores and pharmacies open, but only for limited (afternoon) hours.

I can also recall precisely how and when this changed.   There was a now defunct chain--Hills--that decided to be open on Sunday afternoons.  "Don't worry", the Christian community was told, "it will only be for a few hours".   2 - 6 quickly became 1 - 7 and within a year it was 10 - 10 just like any other day of the week.

The chain is went bankrupt and is no more.

God's sense of humor--or justice.

But Hills crumbled the Sunday Blue Laws and now Sunday is virtually no different than any other day of the week.

Hills failed because it was worse than the competition and was no longer relevant, no need for divine intervention; same with Gee Bees, Value City, Jamesway, Ames, Five-and-Tens, and most of the other outfits I remember from my days growing up in Pennsylvania.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 05:08:04 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Dominika

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 05:53:55 AM »
Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
So what do you think of shops closed on Sundays?

I'm familiar with the concept of closing shopping malls - some years ago it became popular among some Poles to go with all families to shopping malls on Sundays, do some shopping and sit in the restaurant/fast food part (you know, instead of places in the old town, some local restaurants close to the housing estate etc.). While I remember from my childhood going after churhc service on Sunday to a pattisery - there are huge crowds - to bu some cakes to meet with the family and friends at our home or at their.
There is a shop in my housing estate that works every, really every day, evne festal ones like Natiivty or Pascha - on tehse days its time opening is jsut shorter. It's a really bad thing.
So, I'd allowed to function restaurants, pattieseries etc. plus small local shops after the afternoon on Sundays. And definitely not on great feasts (1st and 2nd day of Natiivty, 1st January, Paschal Sunday and Paschal Monday, Pentecost Sunday, Corpus Christ, the Dormition etc.), but actually it's the current law.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 11:44:54 AM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

I think that's the wrong angle to look at this from. The article mentioned the role of trade unions in supporting this law- I suspect that has at least as much importance as the attitudes of the Catholic Church. The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays.  If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc. And even though Catholics are rightly supporting it, it is really not something being imposed by Catholics on the unbelievers- there is a whole history in the socialist and labor movement of advocating Sunday as a day of rest. The firmly anti-religious Proudhon for instance was a firm advocate for it.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 12:00:01 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2017, 12:05:31 PM »
Excellent. Poland is one country where Jesus still freely reigns as King of kings. The bishops of Poland consecrated the country to the Lord's kingship some time ago, in the presence of the President, imploring Him to rule over every area of their lives. Abortion is almost always illegal.

To keep a day of rest devoted to God and family while abstaining from unnecessary servile work is a tenet of natural law that binds all men. It is necessary to be delivered from slavery to work and idolatry of money and to experience the freedom of serving God and being devoted to Him. The first 3 commandments pertain to love of God. The Decalogue demands this act of our keeping faith with God as one of the most important signs of fidelity to His covenant. The people of Israel did so not only as individuals but also as a people. Christian nations shoud do the same. Good for Poland.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:12:31 PM by Xavier »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2017, 12:30:29 PM »
Let shops operate as they see fit.

If we actually did that, they'd steal labor off the streets and keep them in fetters, and sell food to buyers full of sawdust and toxins.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why? I think this is one instance where the ends justify the means.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why? I think this is one instance where the ends justify the means.

"Catholic Memes: Eastern Edition"? What in earth or heaven could justify that? ;)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2017, 01:07:26 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why?

Because it reeks of trytoohardism and it sucks.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2017, 01:08:24 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

I think that's the wrong angle to look at this from. The article mentioned the role of trade unions in supporting this law- I suspect that has at least as much importance as the attitudes of the Catholic Church. The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays.  If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc. And even though Catholics are rightly supporting it, it is really not something being imposed by Catholics on the unbelievers- there is a whole history in the socialist and labor movement of advocating Sunday as a day of rest. The firmly anti-religious Proudhon for instance was a firm advocate for it.

I suppose. Without the increased social safety net to cover the lost wages, won't it do more harm than good though?
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2017, 01:11:32 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday? 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:17 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:54 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.


as usual, you are missing my point.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2017, 01:14:09 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:00 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.


as usual, you are missing my point.

Most of us don't view the forums as a school room, and consequently forget to view you as the school marm.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:40 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2017, 01:19:24 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2017, 01:22:40 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2017, 01:23:12 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2017, 01:26:55 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

I don't find a shred of logic in this post, up to and including your omission of the fact that, when you and I were kids, here in the United States, nobody but 7-11 was open on on Sundays, and not even that in some states.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2017, 01:28:48 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2017, 01:29:09 PM »
There was no 'omission'....

Discussing the 'good ole days' when they are no longer here....does not really contribute...

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2017, 01:30:47 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

I have missed some...not lately for work reasons..


but again....we here in America are -quick- to opine on how other countries should do these things when we ourselves take advantage of the same things we are telling them to stop.

Um, the Polish unions, bishops, and politicians are enacting this law themselves. I doubt the opinions of Americans are particularly on their radar. It has nothing to do with "we know better"- obviously, in this case, the Polish decision-makers are considerably wiser than those in the US.

Quote
All I ask is that before we put our 'we know better' mindset to dealing with others problems (or non problems) that we think about ourselves first...

if we shop on Sundays...even for a quick 'we need milk'....then we should really stop being the cheerleaders for things like this.....

That's a non sequitur. Whether I buy milk on Sunday or not has no impact on the fact that retailers are open on Sundays.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2017, 01:30:54 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.


if the corporation does not -make- their operating costs in stores on sundays...they are losing that 'profit' that their investors wish.....

it would change so fast your head would spin.....a corporation would not keep stores open on sundays if each and every sunday COST them payroll and utilities and gained them zero sales.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
There was no 'omission'....

Discussing the 'good ole days' when they are no longer here....does not really contribute...

But dismissing "Americans" as some perpetually guilty group, and arbitrarily limiting who they are to just the generations and geographies that suit the slander, is a great contribution.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2017, 01:32:07 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.



so do you do your part in making sure stores do not need to fully staff their shops...by NEVER buying things on Sunday?

Demand will continue the corporate practices of being open.

It's a fallacy to think a minute fraction of the population actually has power over retailers via our pocketbooks.

It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.


if the corporation does not -make- their operating costs in stores on sundays...they are losing that 'profit' that their investors wish.....

it would change so fast your head would spin.....a corporation would not keep stores open on sundays if each and every sunday COST them payroll and utilities and gained them zero sales.

Holy New Theologian Adam Smith, pray for us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2017, 01:33:36 PM »

Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

I've separated each section by the different fonts.

1. So the ends justify the means in terms of ending the suffering of those who don't really have an opinion to voice?
Would it be ethical to euthanize homeless people while they are sleeping because it would end his / her suffering and the suffering of society?
Or would it be ethical to euthanize a man with cancer who has a 30% survival rate while he is sleeping?

After all, you end the sufferings that these people will have to endure eventually and possibly die anyways...

Or maybe perhaps it's unethical because you are prohibiting a possibility of eventual happiness or positive experiences of life? Maybe one of these people becomes a nun or a monk and finds peace, or perhaps they - after hitting rock bottom - get back up and become a revolutionary to society! Or perhaps they freeze to death or cancer kills him. I think prohibiting such possibilities of happiness, even in light of inevitable suffering, is immoral, especially when they are given no option to voice an opinion on their own suicide.

I understood that society often puts people in terrible conditions - and yes, the adoption system is screwed up, as is our government - but I don't think the alternative is "baby murder;" rather, a reform of the institutions in place to deal with such problems would be adequate although not ideal of course.

I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

2. I personally don't slut shame, and shame on the people who do. Honestly, in terms of the sin of lust, I am the biggest whore and I deserve to be stoned to death; we should love our sisters, and support them when they are pregnant, and to those who criticize the grave sins of others while ignoring their own grave sins, "anathema sit!"

And I hate your continuum fallacy. So, if "Sunday worship" and a societal normalization of abstinence for the purposes of striving for ascetic goals will reduce the number of pregnancies, while a societal normalization of casual hook-up one-stand sex increases the number of pregnancies, both are just as bad as one another because pregnancies will inevitably happen?

Say I wanted to build a house out of brick or wood, but out of the heavier material. I measure all the logs of wood I have, and all of the bricks I have, and I find that on average, the bricks are way heavier than the wood. However, there is one log which is heavier than a brick, therefore it doesn't matter whether or not I build my house out of bricks or wood?

No, I agree that abstinence culture is better than the alternative. I just think trying to legislate it into law, especially when some of the people in this thread and similar act like such laws are the second coming of Christ is not going to actually change hearts and minds. Don't forget about the smug hypocrisy of the respectable cultural Christian in your moral calculus.

3. If a woman is coerced to have an abortion by her boyfriend / husband and she doesn't want to, or maybe she has the resources to care for the child anyways, wouldn't talking to those people and offering them "devil's advocate" for their immoral choice be better? Plus, see 1.

Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

Plus, regardless if you believe a society should be accepting of abortion or not, my question to you is the following: Why the hell should I be having my well-earned money to be taken from me against my will to fund programs that encourage abortions as well as give almost nothing but abortions? Not to mention the vile corruption that may or may not be going on in that wonderful agency. I would argue this is the new Herod.

See directly above.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

We ought to burn you at the stake for such a comment, you heretical piece of garbage!
Behold, the new Judas! The new Arius! Death to the heretic!

Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur! Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit, qui in ea voluptate velit esse, quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum, qui dolorem eum fugiat, quo voluptas nulla pariatur!

Amen!

(If you couldn't tell, this was a joke - people on this forum I feel fail to catch obvious sarcasm)

That, or you're not as funny as you think you are. Not that I have much room to talk, of course.

Quote
Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.

This is ole' Tocqueville's argument - that having a religious culture does not necessarily equivocate to having a doctrine subscribing population; and he (along with Mill) argues that religious diversity encourages fidelity to one's religious tradition. I don't know; in the long run, we can see the results of such apathy and "diversity" in the secular Western world, both from the 60's onwards to now and even in eras before that, like Nazi Germany, as previously pointed out. While I agree with the former argument, I would argue the contrary and say that there is definitely a correlation between culture and fidelity. I think those who were faithful to Orthodoxy under the Tsar were much more religious and Orthodox in their doctrine than most of us who have had to interract with the secular world (not that the Tsar was always the most perfect example of Christian humility or an ideal Christian government).

So pious while they were beating their wives and carrying out pogroms.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RobS

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2017, 01:36:25 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2017, 01:39:15 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Exactly again, and "end thread."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2017, 01:50:10 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:51:24 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2017, 01:54:02 PM »
Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

You don't calculate 7/8ths as "some"?

In addition, you seem to be losing sight here of the fact that the money-making "commodity" in question is human souls. Want less responsibility as an owner? Hire robots or farm animals.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:55:42 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2017, 01:56:35 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2017, 01:58:08 PM »
I'm no longer going to hang out with Antonis on Sundays.  Thanks, OP!
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2017, 02:02:21 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2017, 02:05:07 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Your struggling small business owner example source of issues has nothing to do with forced closing one day a week. We don't have a rational heavily regulated economy that favors small business ownership and equalitarianism rather than the purported "efficiencies" of large corporations. Large corporations and large accumulations of capital are the problem. What we need is to put resources in the hands of average people and let them produce real goods and services.

BTW I'm talking about America, not Poland.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:06:10 PM by RobS »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2017, 02:05:28 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2017, 02:06:35 PM »
Want less responsibility as an owner? Hire robots

I think that's the only real long term solution, yes. But without robust social safety nets it will be a cure worse than the disease.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:08:02 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2017, 02:07:19 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.

Good point.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2017, 02:12:48 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?


Note/reminder: I don't give a damn about Jim and Alice Walton. I'm talking about the small business owner who can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Your struggling small business owner example source of issues has nothing to do with forced closing one day a week. We don't have a rational heavily regulated economy that favors small business ownership and equalitarianism rather than the purported "efficiencies" of large corporations. Large corporations and large accumulations of capital are the problem. What we need is to put resources in the hands of average people and let them produce real goods and services.

I know, but that's a pig's eye until/unless we hit the Singularity. I'm trying to be pragmatic. Asteriktos did make a good point, though.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2017, 02:13:46 PM »
The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays. If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc.
Exactly.

Except at least with a lot of other labor laws they can still make some of their living. They can't make any of it while they're closed. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to make up their shortfall?

It seems to me that this would just affect a couple manager level employees at any one store. People aren't going to suddenly eat 1/7th less, or buy 1/7th less video games or plastic bins, which means they'd simply be doing more shopping on the other 6 days. Which in turn means that throughout the six days they'd still be open the stores would need more manhours put in than they currently do to run the registers, gather the carts, mop the floors, etc.
Put more money in the pockets of working people so they can consume more at the small business. Cut taxes for them as well. There's policies that can create an environment for small businesses to flourish, but the politicians currently in power care more about helping out corporate capitalists who don't need it.

If it was up to me I'd force people into working less. Do we really need to shop 6 days a week?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:14:48 PM by RobS »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2017, 02:19:28 PM »
It's also a fallacy to think international, multi-billion dollar corporations are commanded by anything but the whims of their international, multi-billion dollar investors, but that's not suitable to delve into in this subforum.
Thank you.

Everyone, I am happy to respect the reasoning of the OP and keep this thread in my section so long as the discussion does not become obviously political. So far, it has remained faith and market-based. Let's keep it that way.

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:20:20 PM by Antonis »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2017, 02:43:34 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

2.
This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.
I'm not sure I understand. St. Kosmas Aitolos' own martyrdom was likely a result of his campaign to have the weekly bazaar moved from Sunday to Saturday, not only for the sake of morning worship, but also because conducting business isn't suitable for the Lord's day. This is a precept that isn't unique to him, but can be found in the life advice given to ordinary believers by Russian fathers, too, for instance. Sundays and great feasts are properly observed with prayer and rest, rather than labor. This is observed in monasteries, too. I agree, of course, that it also has to do with the well-being of workers, but do not believe that is all it is.

3.
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?
I do not know about Poland, but in my experience it is common enough already for family-owned businesses to be closed one day a week. I would not be surprised if a large number of Catholic Poles already close shop for part or all of the day Sunday.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:44:15 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2017, 02:46:55 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.

I'm not sure but I think in Poland, due to zoning laws, small businesses have a bit more protection from predatory mega-corps than they do in the American neoliberal paradise.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2017, 02:55:58 PM »
Somewhat relatedly, I remember walking out of liturgy in Athens' Metropolis Square to discover a large protest to end the Sunday workday at the nearby Monastiraki. At first, I was happy, until I realized none of those involved had gone to church. I thought their protest would've been more effective had they walked out of work to attend liturgy. That would've gotten hierarchs involved for sure, and would've been a much more worthy protest.

Ironically, I walked by about an hour later to discover paid laborers taking down the bleachers that had been set up for the protest.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:07:48 PM by Antonis »
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For our impious, godless, and faithless rulers, the persecutors of our holy Faith and Fatherland, the members of our parliament who hate and wrong us, and for their repentance, let us pray to the Lord.
--Petition, Kalavrytan Rite

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2017, 03:58:04 PM »
To all the economy experts here (it seems jobs are the new number one priority for some): It won't hurt Polish economy in the least and endanger zero jobs. As I stated above, for example in Germany and Austria, stores are closed on Sundays. Period. You can go to gas stations and buy something in their little stores in case of an "emergency" - for triple prices. Works wonderfully. So far, our economy could cope, we are not bankrupt or something. People buy more on Fridays and Saturdays, that's it.
If you allow stores to open 12h a day, 7 days a week, you only favor the big international companies which can manage the staffing. The owner of a small shop, working alone, will not be able to compete - unless he works 84h a week with no time off ever.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:08:30 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:23 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:56 PM »
Ah, yes, who could forget the religious discrimination angle! Yes, that's what this is about. I like the way you think.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2017, 04:33:20 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2017, 04:33:59 PM »
Ah, yes, who could forget the religious discrimination angle! Yes, that's what this is about. I like the way you think.



Ever heard of unintended consequences?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2017, 04:37:38 PM »
I get it. Every day is sacred, so none of them are.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2017, 04:40:37 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2017, 04:43:26 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2017, 04:50:49 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:51:43 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2017, 04:51:18 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2017, 04:54:28 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2017, 04:56:03 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
Agreed. Not sure where we differ on that one.
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For our impious, godless, and faithless rulers, the persecutors of our holy Faith and Fatherland, the members of our parliament who hate and wrong us, and for their repentance, let us pray to the Lord.
--Petition, Kalavrytan Rite

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2017, 04:57:18 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?


let the stores remain open and Jews and Muslims work Sunday in exchange for Friday or Saturday off....


oh wait...;)
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2017, 04:58:34 PM »
Is there some evidence that there are all these Polish shops on the brink of collapse, for whom being closed for one day of the week would be the last straw?

Given how many small businesses routinely fail, I would think that the law of averages would dictate there's some. But, maybe in that case they're necessary collateral damage. So, point taken. Like I said to LnoL, life sucks.

I'm not sure but I think in Poland, due to zoning laws, small businesses have a bit more protection from predatory mega-corps than they do in the American neoliberal paradise.

Well, if true that's good, at least.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2017, 05:00:10 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.
Agreed. Not sure where we differ on that one.

Ever lived paycheck to paycheck? Seems like a Sunday's pay could make a lot of difference for some.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2017, 05:03:24 PM »
A few things,

1. The market is for and of man, not man for and of the market.

Funny that you allude to that while ignoring the verse itself. Would you have protested the Apostles plucking grain on the Sabbath when they were hungry or David and co. eating the showbread? Yes, not working on Sunday is the ideal, but life is not always ideal.

No one is being forced to go to Mass. But they shouldn't be forced to skip it either. Those who insist on every day of the week being open for commerce are raising capital as a Law over man and God.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2017, 05:26:14 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.

In what way is it to the well being of Jewish or Adventist or Muslim workers, who are commanded to rest on other days?  It might be good for us, but from your logic, we might as well make the work free days Saturday and Friday, since in the case of Jews and Muslims a religious obligation to rest exists on those days, whereas from our perspective it does not.  The Golden Rule is still in effect.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2017, 05:27:42 PM »
Just out of total curiosity....those in favor of this...



Tell me how many times have you bought something on the way home from DL on a Sunday?

Ah, I was wondering when the good old ad hominem tu quoque would come out on this thread.


more just a 'think about what you recommend for others' warning....

In that case, how many Sunday liturgies do you miss because of work? Do you enjoy it?

This is the crux of the matter.

I hadn't posted about it, as it has taken me this long to realize there are those who actually don't get it, but closed stores on Sundays is about the well-being of workers, not about some "don't shop on the SeventhEighth Day" Mormonesque nonsense.

In what way is it to the well being of Jewish or Adventist or Muslim workers, who are commanded to rest on other days?  It might be good for us, but from your logic, we might as well make the work free days Saturday and Friday, since in the case of Jews and Muslims a religious obligation to rest exists on those days, whereas from our perspective it does not.  The Golden Rule is still in effect.


Do they matter? Only a Christian society matters...doncha know!



PS: I do understand that in Poland the societal makeup is different....but since most of the discussion is not specifically about there....
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 05:29:17 PM by DeniseDenise »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2017, 05:29:58 PM »
I'm not going to follow Lepanto's line of thinking- I don't think the democratic/ majority angle should really be taken that far. Democracy is not sacred and not even expedient at all times.

What I do think is this:

As human beings, of any religious persuasion, we should not be working every day and we should be protected from our employers forcing us to work every day. We should have free days to spend as we choose, enjoying time with our families or other necessary human activities. Having a legally sanctioned day of rest helps ensure this.

As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays unless our line of work is some essential service like ER doctors, firefighters, etc. We should be able to attend liturgy and have the rest of the day free for rest and leisure, or for meditation on the sacred mysteries as far as we are able.

In a majority Christian country like Poland, establishing Sunday as the day of rest makes the most practical sense. Now, if our economy were rational and oriented toward satisfying human needs above all else, in all likelihood we could in fact have four day workweeks. In that case, sure, make Friday and Saturday days of rest too. As it is, capital's relentless thirst for profit over human interests would make that very difficult. But if the labor movement and their allies can carve out at least one day of rest out of the week for everyone, that's a win for humanity.

Another possibility is something that was done for a while in the Soviet Union, where workers were assigned a day off every week- it could be any day. Group A gets Mondays, Group B gets Tuesdays, etc. I don't like that but I suppose it would be the most religiously impartial. Since I'm a Christian though I can't be impartial here. I regard religious toleration as a good thing and a practical necessity, but not something to be raised to an absolute. All days can't be equally sacred, or none of them will be. What lurks behind a lot of modern laicite is the One True God, Capital, for whom every day and every hour is sacred and the thirst for fresh blood is insatiable.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2017, 05:43:07 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

Not sure what Latin has to do with any of this. I suppose I have a tendency to learn from history. Religious wars tore across Europe for much of early modernity and before it. And many people unnecessarily died because of those same wars. And you'd be surprised that how mundane rulings on who could work and when were involved in many of those disputes. While separation of Church and State is not achievable in any pure form, I find striving for it better than the alternative, which is to breed discrimination and hatred which ultimately lead to violence.

And to be quite honest, I'm also a fan of the Enlightenment. If I find unjust laws to be too odious, I'd openly advocate revolt and sedition. I'd much rather live the consequences of those actions than live with the consequences of suffering the actions of some rube who mindlessly follows authority as they punish me for daring to exercise my own conscience.

In answer to Iconodule's concerns, however, I get it. My only problem is why can't the unions do the ultimatum themselves? Why turn to state power and force this on those who aren't a part of them or of a different religion?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2017, 05:49:11 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.

I'm not going to follow Lepanto's line of thinking- I don't think the democratic/ majority angle should really be taken that far. Democracy is not sacred and not even expedient at all times.

What I do think is this:

As human beings, of any religious persuasion, we should not be working every day and we should be protected from our employers forcing us to work every day. We should have free days to spend as we choose, enjoying time with our families or other necessary human activities. Having a legally sanctioned day of rest helps ensure this.

As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays unless our line of work is some essential service like ER doctors, firefighters, etc. We should be able to attend liturgy and have the rest of the day free for rest and leisure, or for meditation on the sacred mysteries as far as we are able.

In a majority Christian country like Poland, establishing Sunday as the day of rest makes the most practical sense. Now, if our economy were rational and oriented toward satisfying human needs above all else, in all likelihood we could in fact have four day workweeks. In that case, sure, make Friday and Saturday days of rest too. As it is, capital's relentless thirst for profit over human interests would make that very difficult. But if the labor movement and their allies can carve out at least one day of rest out of the week for everyone, that's a win for humanity.

Another possibility is something that was done for a while in the Soviet Union, where workers were assigned a day off every week- it could be any day. Group A gets Mondays, Group B gets Tuesdays, etc. I don't like that but I suppose it would be the most religiously impartial. Since I'm a Christian though I can't be impartial here. I regard religious toleration as a good thing and a practical necessity, but not something to be raised to an absolute. All days can't be equally sacred, or none of them will be. What lurks behind a lot of modern laicite is the One True God, Capital, for whom every day and every hour is sacred and the thirst for fresh blood is insatiable.

I guess that works. I suppose I'm pretty jaded on the subject of the efficacy of labor protections, could just be a side effect of living in the US, though.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2017, 05:51:21 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

Not sure what Latin has to do with any of this. I suppose I have a tendency to learn from history. Religious wars tore across Europe for much of early modernity and before it. And many people unnecessarily died because of those same wars. And you'd be surprised that how mundane rulings on who could work and when were involved in many of those disputes. While separation of Church and State is not achievable in any pure form, I find striving for it better than the alternative, which is to breed discrimination and hatred which ultimately lead to violence.

And to be quite honest, I'm also a fan of the Enlightenment. If I find unjust laws to be too odious, I'd openly advocate revolt and sedition. I'd much rather live the consequences of those actions than live with the consequences of suffering the actions of some rube who mindlessly follows authority as they punish me for daring to exercise my own conscience.

In answer to Iconodule's concerns, however, I get it. My only problem is why can't the unions do the ultimatum themselves? Why turn to state power and force this on those who aren't a part of them or of a different religion?

Aside from the religious angle, unions don't really have much of a mechanism to work with outside state power. It's either that or strike and hope that the bossman's heart is moved before your children die.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2017, 05:52:33 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.



Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?


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Offline RobS

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2017, 05:59:09 PM »
Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?
Virtually all people in this country either have to work or starve, except for kids.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2017, 06:26:20 PM »
I guess if you're Jewish or Muslim, you're forced to accommodate Christian holy days, but not vice versa. Must be great to have the majority and the violence of the state on your side.
Well, yes. It is called democracy. Majority rules. Minority must follow, no matter whether it likes it or not. Democracy is not about making everyone happy. It's about - at least in theory- doing what most people want. Can be hard on minorities, many people forget that.

So you'd be okay then with forcing businesses to do gay wedding cakes then so long as the majority thinks that's cool then, right?
If there is a law in the constitution, approved by the majority, which allows to punish people who are not willing to make a cake for a gay wedding - yes, absolutely. Probably, I would not make such a cake if I were a baker, dunno. But I would have to accept the law if I was a citizen of such a country.

I find that pretty lame and in principle an open door for justifying almost anything. But to each their own.
Think it through. What is the alternative? -Lawlessness. Anarchy. Didn't you like Latin? Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris Caesari. I must not let a man-made law rule out divine law. I may choose to violate man-made law for that reason. But I must accept the existence and applicability of such a man-made law and live with the consequences.

A Muslim or a Jew is violating their own religious law by working on Friday or Saturday. What's the solution there, forced conversion?
The solution is: They got to make a choice. Probably work on those days in spite of their religious obligations. Probably look for a job where they don't have to work on those days. Probably not showing up on those days and getting fired. Probably try to appeal at the highest court for a change of law. Their choice. Democracy.

"Do this or starve" is not really freedom.



Then no one is free....every one must 'Work or starve...' no?

Seems that way, yes. Until the Singularity, at least. It would be nice if until then, though, the law didn't make it easier to starve than absolutely necessary.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 06:27:46 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2017, 07:24:58 PM »
(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

I wish you didn't.

Why?

Because it reeks of trytoohardism and it sucks.

But...isn't trytoohardism compatible with Orthodoxy?

(I've seen worse Christian memes, come on).
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Keep shining, star!

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2017, 08:02:55 PM »
I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

Quote
Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/10/17/Who-s-More-Generous-Liberals-or-Conservatives
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

And, to respond to this argument, I would point out that I would consider "Fox News Christians" being uncharitable to be a result of the heretical "Sola Fida" Protestant belief, which affects morally heterodox churches as well. The Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) believe that such people who don't do works of charity will most likely, as hypocrites, be condemned to eternal fire and everlasting pain.

If someone like Francis of Assisi could find happiness living a life as a beggar, is it really being poor in of itself that leads to unhappiness? I would much rather be a beggar than a rich person who doesn't find peace and sits on my death bed miserable that I was selfish my entire life.

Do you think Kim Kardashian is happy with her existence? Or was Robin Williams happy with his life? Or was Stalin near the end of his life happy?

And, as I've pointed out - or at least was getting at - how do you know that person may not find happiness in their life, even if poverty in of itself always led to unhappiness, and manage to break away from where they are in society? Regardless of how "aristocratic" our American society is, you should read literature about moving up the ranks as a nobody in an actual aristocratic society, like "Les Miserables" or Gogol's works like "The Nose" or "The Overcoat."

And REGARDLESS if you even deny all of these things, what good is it if Lazarus finds eternal bliss while the rich man burns with the devil and his angels for all eternity?

(Luke 16:19-31)

"'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' saith the Lord?"

(Romans 12:19)

Quote
That, or you're not as funny as you think you are. Not that I have much room to talk, of course.

Yeah, it's probably the latter. Nobody here would figure out I copied and pasted the "Lorem Ipsum" from Microsoft Word in its Latin nonsense.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.

You spooked me with that word.

And consider it my conservative upbringing, but I'm of the opinion that how "diversity" is understood by the Left is being used to segregate society will eventually lead to greater monstrosities than anything we have now. That is, the "it's us versus them mentality" that currently exists fueled on emotion and a false sense of moral supremacy / self-righteousness rather than any semblance of love or logic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/02/korryn-gaines-is-the-ninth-black-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-this-year/?utm_term=.0a67c2589d3e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnoIsAk66g

I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity, not segregation and antagonism.
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Keep shining, star!

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2017, 08:59:43 PM »
I agree that abortion should be at most a last resort and that reform of the system is the best ultimate course,  but life is full of Catch-22s and sometimes someone has to die (eg. every "just war" ever). I just hate the glibbness with which Catholic-types force suffering on the vulnerable in the name of "life at any cost" and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for defending the voiceless, especially when this same crowd seems to almost always be firmly on the side of big business that causes much of this suffering, at least in this country.

Quote
Sure, but the Fox News Christian isn't going to lift a finger to help her if she keeps the baby anyway (beyond some hand wave about overburdened church charity doing it), so the kid might honestly be better off dead. Life sucks.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/10/17/Who-s-More-Generous-Liberals-or-Conservatives
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

And, to respond to this argument, I would point out that I would consider "Fox News Christians" being uncharitable to be a result of the heretical "Sola Fida" Protestant belief, which affects morally heterodox churches as well. The Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) believe that such people who don't do works of charity will most likely, as hypocrites, be condemned to eternal fire and everlasting pain.

So it's "no true conservative," eh? Well, guess I can't argue with that. Have fun with your boot stomping a different looking face forever.

If someone like Francis of Assisi could find happiness living a life as a beggar, is it really being poor in of itself that leads to unhappiness? I would much rather be a beggar than a rich person who doesn't find peace and sits on my death bed miserable that I was selfish my entire life.

Do you think Kim Kardashian is happy with her existence? Or was Robin Williams happy with his life? Or was Stalin near the end of his life happy?

And, as I've pointed out - or at least was getting at - how do you know that person may not find happiness in their life, even if poverty in of itself always led to unhappiness, and manage to break away from where they are in society? Regardless of how "aristocratic" our American society is, you should read literature about moving up the ranks as a nobody in an actual aristocratic society, like "Les Miserables" or Gogol's works like "The Nose" or "The Overcoat."

And REGARDLESS if you even deny all of these things, what good is it if Lazarus finds eternal bliss while the rich man burns with the devil and his angels for all eternity?

(Luke 16:19-31)

"'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' saith the Lord?"

(Romans 12:19)

Quote
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Can't decide if your rhapsodizing on the virtues of (other peoples's) poverty is creepily irrelevant or just plain irrelevant.

Quote
That, or you're not as funny as you think you are. Not that I have much room to talk, of course.

Yeah, it's probably the latter. Nobody here would figure out I copied and pasted the "Lorem Ipsum" from Microsoft Word in its Latin nonsense.

I would've caught it if I gave enough of a crap to give it more than a millisecond's worth of a glance. After all these years I tend to just tune out all the showoffy Latin on these boards.

Diversity (booga booga!) is the unavoidable side-effect of modern life outside of some hypothetical Christian-only moon colony. Trying to somehow control or stop it only leads to greater monstrosities than anything we have now.

You spooked me with that word.

And consider it my conservative upbringing, but I'm of the opinion that how "diversity" is understood by the Left is being used to segregate society will eventually lead to greater monstrosities than anything we have now. That is, the "it's us versus them mentality" that currently exists fueled on emotion and a false sense of moral supremacy / self-righteousness rather than any semblance of love or logic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/02/korryn-gaines-is-the-ninth-black-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-this-year/?utm_term=.0a67c2589d3e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnoIsAk66g

I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity, not segregation and antagonism.

Another artifact of your upbringing, the assumption that criticism of American conservatives=support for the American Left. I cast a pox on both your houses, just for different reasons.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 09:00:47 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2017, 03:14:49 PM »
I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity ... .

Good luck with that.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2017, 03:56:00 PM »
As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays

Do we? I've never completely understood this line of reasoning. Sunday is not Sabbath.
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Offline biro

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2017, 04:11:18 PM »
As Christians we should avoid work on Sundays

Do we? I've never completely understood this line of reasoning. Sunday is not Sabbath.

True. Saturday is the day of rest. Sunday is the day of worship.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2017, 04:16:42 PM »
Pretty sure that's a false dichotomy. The Jews worshiped on the Sabbath.

Also, I know that at the very least Justin Martyr argued that the Sabbath had been moved to Sunday.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 04:17:38 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2017, 04:28:50 PM »
There seems to be some varying views of it but most of traditional Christian witness seems to be that the sabbath requirement was translated to the Lord’s day. And in some places the requirement is extended to major feasts like Christmas.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2017, 04:33:28 PM »
And as Antonis mentioned the martyrdom of St Cosmas of Aetolia has something to say about this.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 04:33:38 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2017, 09:33:33 PM »
I'm of the opinion that diversity should exist in unity ... .

Good luck with that.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:37:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2017, 12:31:36 AM »
In my home country blue laws still exist to a large extent.  Most shopping malls do open on Sundays, besides some drugstores and bakeries, but most shops are closed.  The strongest opposition to opening stores comes from the unions that represent the retail store employees, but there's no significant demand for it by consumers either.  Of course, Saturdays are fierce shopping days, as the only day of the week when most workers have free time to shop, be it for groceries or cars.
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