Author Topic: Poland to ban Sunday shopping  (Read 4077 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
Excellent!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 01:03:08 PM »
Great idea.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 01:12:30 PM »
Things seem to be going the opposite direction in the U.S.  :-\

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 01:34:03 PM »
I should've titled it "phase out" rather than "ban."
The president has also not signed it yet - but considering the political allegiance of the President, it will probably pass.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 05:00:03 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 05:29:11 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

The only people I feel bad for here are the small business owners. To quote one of the parts of A Christmas Carol that almost never gets adapted for some reason:

Quote
In time the bells ceased, and the bakers were shut up; and yet there was a genial shadowing forth of all these dinners and the progress of their cooking, in the thawed blotch of wet above each baker’s oven; where the pavement smoked as if its stones were cooking too.

“Is there a peculiar flavour in what you sprinkle from your torch?” asked Scrooge.

“There is. My own.”

“Would it apply to any kind of dinner on this day?” asked Scrooge.

“To any kindly given. To a poor one most.”

“Why to a poor one most?” asked Scrooge.

“Because it needs it most.”

“Spirit,” said Scrooge, after a moment’s thought, “I wonder you, of all the beings in the many worlds about us, should desire to cramp these people’s opportunities of innocent enjoyment.”

“I!” cried the Spirit.

“You would deprive them of their means of dining every seventh day, often the only day on which they can be said to dine at all,” said Scrooge. “Wouldn’t you?”

“I!” cried the Spirit.

“You seek to close these places on the Seventh Day?” said Scrooge. “And it comes to the same thing.”

“I seek!” exclaimed the Spirit.

“Forgive me if I am wrong. It has been done in your name, or at least in that of your family,” said Scrooge.

“There are some upon this earth of yours,” returned the Spirit, “who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 06:06:32 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2017, 06:28:03 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 06:32:05 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 07:11:46 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.

Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 07:17:20 PM »
The only people I feel bad for here are the small business owners. To quote one of the parts of A Christmas Carol that almost never gets adapted for some reason:

170-odd years later, Shopkeeper Nation retailers remain mandatorily closed only on Christmas and Easter, but Sundays are strictly no-more-than-six-hour workdays, whether you're a small business that doesn't open for much longer than that even on weekdays, or a supermarket that runs from dawn to midnight.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 07:19:37 PM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
Why it's posted in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion???

I was indecisive about where to post it - was this a religious topic or a non-religious topic? I don't have access to the politics section, and it really isn't political...can I really classify this as a "Faith" issue when it is predominantly motivated by Roman Catholicism (as Roman Catholicism is 86.9% of the population - Orthodoxy only makes up 1.3% of the population - in 2012)?

To avoid this dilemma of controversy, I moved it to the Orthodox-Catholic discussion -  as it is an issue that affects a predominantly Catholic country but also affects the Orthodox within said country.

Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.

I did not know that, and I apologize - however, hopefully you can understand the reasoning behind it. It was a no win situation man.

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« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:41:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 07:42:23 PM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 07:43:07 PM »
That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

Why is the goal of living to be responsibility free, even for one day every week?  It's more work to attain that than, say, living to see responsibility done well (of which I'm not an exemplar, to be clear).  Then when one's R&R is interrupted, maybe one is less grumpy about it?  I was actually thinking about these two perspectives today, though, so I'm not trying to pick on you.

Anyway, that said, I have mixed feelings about the idea of all shops being told when/when not to operate, even if it's for Sundays off.  I'm sure that has almost everything to do with my frame of reference, though.  Ideally, it wouldn't need to be forced.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 07:45:36 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 08:19:37 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 08:30:27 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!

Offline Antonis

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2017, 08:31:23 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!
It's called the avaton, not even female animals are allowed.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 09:29:12 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.


+1

I enthusiastically and emphatically agree with my Finnish friend, which is an odd plot twist in the grand history of this forum; I am tempted to place in my jurisdiction “But my heart belongs to Finland”, which is an altogether novel experience.  Perhaps Alpo we might compromise with the UOC-NA?  Another EP autonomous church, and one with particularly good liturgics. Yours are good also although I got the impression you chaps missed the opportunity to celebrate a Kyriopascha on the Gregorian calendar; if true this makes me a Sad Panda.

Now, seriously, in robust defense of Alpo’s position: People sometimes run out of food on Sundays.  I believe in 24/7/365 retail.  “Blue Laws” like this are wrong for several reasons:

- People sometimes need to buy things on Sunday due to emergencies or planning errors.
- Sunday is in some situations the only time a family can go shopping, after church.
- This measure violates the Golden Rule, the precept of our Lord, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Suppose Charedi Jews or Seventh Day Adventists or Muslims seized power and banned shopping on Friday or Saturday?  As it is, there are already “blue laws” applicable to Friday in several Islamic countries.  Such laws, regardless of the day of the week they apply to, are discriminatory.

What is more, regarding the Sabbath, I consider as a theologoumemnon that our duty to keep it holy is quite possibly fulfilled through the observance of the Great Sabbath, in which our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ reposed in the tomb.  I believe the Sabbath law in Judaism was intended to prophetically foreshadow the Great Sabbath.  What is more, the Jews were over-applying it, as was pointed out by our Lord more than once.  Lastly, there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath has migrated to Sunday; Sunday is holy by virtue of its own merit, as the day of the resurrection of our Lord, the glorious day in which death was swallowed up in victory.  It is ontologically different; not a day of rest but of rejoicing.  I am of the opinion that people should rejoice on Sunday and enjoy God’s creation, which could include aspects of commerce.

You may disagree with me on this interpretation, and I accept that, but what I reject is the use of police power, the use of secular law, to enforce what is essentially a religious decision.  The Oriental Orthodox were historically persecuted by the Byzantine Empire for a similiar difference of opinion, which is why I, in general, oppose the use of the law to enforce specific religious interpretations that have the effect of depriving members of one religious belief of certain freedoms, for the pure satisfaction of members of another faith.  The Golden Rule applies to Jews and Muslims; we cannot criticize them for laws which make Sunday worship difficult or impossible in their lands and then in virtue of the same breath economically disadvantage them by proscribing them from working on days where historically they have worked.

People should learn to exercise self-control with regards to their beliefs about Sunday church attendance.  If the faith of a Roman Catholic is so weak that they require the state to intercede to prevent them from shopping or buying alcohol or other things on a Sunday lest they fail to attend church and keep their Sunday obligation, there is a more substantial problem than the mere lack of faith.

Lastly, the decline or lack of availability of midweek services in the Orthodox Church is lamentable.  Of the Orthodox churches, only the Armenians lack a midweek Eucharist, although they have prayers (and I believe feast days are also celebrated with a Eucharist on days other than Sunday).  The Byzantine Typikon prescribes beautiful services for every day of the week, with unique troparia and unique themes.  The Syriac Orthodox do not normally, except on a feast, serve the Qurbono except on Wednesday, Friday, Sunday, and I think, Saturday, according to my catechism, but the Shimo, our book of daily prayer, contains rich prayer services with a specific theme for every day of the week. 

While the Sunday Eucharist should remain the first service, the pressures of modern life offer us an opportunity to revitalize these midweek services.  Every day should be a holy day.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2017, 09:38:32 PM »
Look what you did, Antonis...

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2017, 09:46:40 PM »
I feel sorry for Poles. This might not cause any trouble if your wife is at home cooking, cleaning etc. but if you live alone and have a life it's somewhat annoying that you have to think of opening hours. Our supermarkets were closed on sundays until a few years back and I wouldn't have it back.

Or just plan ahead a day on the groceries and on Sunday do something other than shopping?

That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

The irony.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2017, 09:47:56 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

You didn't raise this objection on all those Sundays we hung out at pizzerias, Italian bakeries, halal restaurants, and Albanian men-only cafes, bro.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I wish the Albanians felt that way about allowing women into their cafes!
It's called the avaton, not even female animals are allowed.

Love it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:06 PM »
Excellent!

I am of such a vintage that I can recall when all the department stores were closed on Sundays in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian.  There were a few grocery stores and pharmacies open, but only for limited (afternoon) hours.

I can also recall precisely how and when this changed.   There was a now defunct chain--Hills--that decided to be open on Sunday afternoons.  "Don't worry", the Christian community was told, "it will only be for a few hours".   2 - 6 quickly became 1 - 7 and within a year it was 10 - 10 just like any other day of the week.

The chain is went bankrupt and is no more.

God's sense of humor--or justice.

But Hills crumbled the Sunday Blue Laws and now Sunday is virtually no different than any other day of the week.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 11:27:44 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:28:36 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 11:40:46 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: One of the 10 Commandments, and a description of said commandment that are applicable to all of the Church. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply a nation state enforcing justice.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:50:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2017, 11:45:11 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2017, 11:53:42 PM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

Shouldn't the basis of law be Christian morality ("GASP!")? And I didn't realize that unbelievers live such miserable and impoverished lives that they need to work on Sundays

And honestly, without such a rule, think about the reverse - how many Christians are in lower-class jobs who, just to survive food-wise, violate their conscience to appease a management that requires specific service on Sunday? (At least for those poor who take their Faith seriously)

And the logic of "not forcing people at gun-point" is a broad argument that can be used to abolish any law, said laws which are supposed to reflect the Justice of God (which is what the Old Testament laws were - disciplinary laws that reflected God's justice).

Then again, this is a theological argument - but being the radical college-student I am, to what extent is a secular government allowed to not reflect Christian morality / justice? Should this be an incessant goal that we should pursue nonstop?

Regardless of this being a theological argument, I don't think the culture of a country reflecting Christian Traditions is necessarily a bad thing.

I mean, in America, we still got a bunch of work to do.



(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:00:19 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 12:10:53 AM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

Shouldn't the basis of law be Christian morality ("GASP!")?

There's Christian morality and then there's Christian morality. Punishing murder is a Christian principle, but so is stoning adulterers if you're going by the OT. And while we're at it, why not forced conversions? Why not take a page from our Muslim "co-beligerents" and install burqas to prevent lust?

And I didn't realize that unbelievers live such miserable and impoverished lives that they need to work on Sundays

And honestly, without such a rule, think about the reverse - how many Christians are in lower-class jobs who, just to survive food-wise, violate their conscience to appease a management that requires specific service on Sunday? (At least for those poor who take their Faith seriously)

Welcome to life in a modern capitalist society. Do you want to pay the taxes that will make up for their lost wages?

And the logic of "not forcing people at gun-point" is a broad argument that can be used to abolish any law, said laws which are supposed to reflect the Justice of God (which is what the Old Testament laws were - disciplinary laws that reflected God's justice).

Then again, this is a theological argument - but being the radical college-student I am, to what extent is a secular government allowed to not reflect Christian morality / justice? Should this be an incessant goal that we should pursue nonstop?

Regardless of this being a theological argument, I don't think the culture of a country reflecting Christian Traditions is necessarily a bad thing.

I mean, in America, we still got a bunch of work to do.

See above.



(I stole this from another forum I'm a member at)

Hardee-har-har. You and wgw should get together and stroke each other's egos.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:13:11 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 12:16:41 AM »
Also, gotta love the South Park reference in your clever little picture. I'm sure Parker and Stone would have been executed a long time ago in the ideal theonomy.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:19:50 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 12:34:41 AM »
Also, gotta love the South Park reference in your clever little picture. I'm sure Parker and Stone would have been executed a long time ago in the ideal theonomy.

Hey man, I'm just stealing images I find funny on the internet.

And while admittedly as a teenager I watched South Park a lot, I loathe it now and find it rather immature - and they like to be the "moral authority" on manners while portraying ideas they don't agree with in a vulgar manner, making Cartman possess whatever ideology they disagree with.

And while by no means would I call for their execution, I find it disgusting how they normalize such blasphemy in a repulsive and vile sense - the AA episode comes to mind.

They also perpetuated the idea in their Easter da-Vinci parody episode that it is better to overthrow a church's authority if Jesus Christ visits you and tells you so. Certainly the devil doesn't work in coincidences?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:35:34 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 12:52:03 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2017, 12:55:28 AM »
Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
[/quote]So what do you think of shops closed on Sundays?

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2017, 01:34:44 AM »
Let shops operate as they see fit.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2017, 01:38:56 AM »
That's possible and people should do that but many work during weekdays so weekend is a treasure they'd probably like to cherish without having to worry about things like opening hours. I for one already have a bit stress over the fact that saturday is the only day I don't have any responsibilities and assumingly I'm not the only one to feel that.

Why is the goal of living to be responsibility free, even for one day every week?

I don't like being told what to do. Much less living according to clock or calendar.
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2017, 01:44:01 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.

But this basis on "common ground" seems implausible, because even though various religions have some venerable aspects of it, and generally they are consistent morally speaking, there are clear variations of what is seen as "moral" and "just," some of which are gravely sinful from a Christian perspective.

For example, Islam promotes polygamy and divorce, while at the same time advocating conquest and subduing others from its origins.

Hinduism made sex a major part of religious belief, even carving statues of fornication on these temples, which tends to shock Western tourists. There was also a historical problem of under age temple prostitutes which is still very much present to this day. Also, need I mention the adherents of Kali, who tortured people to adore their demon from hell?

Pharisaical Judaism is self explanatory, as Saint Paul "progressed far" in his own religion while living immorally.

And then you have so much "Christian" denominations which are so varied in their own morality that there is essentially a sect for every single grave sin in the book - Idolatry, Abortion, Drug Usage, Demonic Spirituality, Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Greed, etc.

Of course, all of these religions gradually over time gradually have become changed to be more in line with Christian morality - polygamy is taboo in less conservative sects of Islam, Hinduism has made an effort to try to minimize the significance or remove these problems, and Jews don't kill Christians anymore by stoning and crucifixion. This is all at the behest - historically - of Christian morality and international relations.

You can also prove objective moral Christian doctrine by looking at the correlation of consistent moral doctrine of what the majority of these religions believed and comparing it to Traditional Christian morality - Even though orgies were idolized in Pagan Rome, people still had a conception that "adultery" was morally wrong, as my letter from Pliny the Younger describes.
And you can use Christianity as the base as it is arguably the strictest of all ascetic religious traditions ("I say to you anybody who looks at a woman with lust commits adulterey with her in his heart.")
I also do not judge the conservative individuals in each of these sects - that is to the Great and Terrible Judge to decide, and I pray for their salvation, as I don't even know if I'll be saved - probably not.

And what exactly would this common ground be if it weren't for the pervasive influence of Christian morality, to check and balance when society decides to slightly change some aspects of it?

We've seen what happens when all of these moral apostates try to find "common ground." What ends up happening is that the majority, denying religious guidance, begins to distort their idea of morality and justice based on Not-Moral Relativism (that is, morality doesn't exist, but we will create arbitrary moral values that don't really exist and hate you if you don't stand up for these moral values that don't exist).

We have a tyranny of the majority when it comes to social issues - good luck bringing up a rational, not-hateful and non-emotional debate about abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, transgenderism, or drug legalization. And this isn't the only time secular governments deviated from Christian morality - for example, the genocide of Jews and other ethnic minority groups by the Nazis, Stalin killing at least 30 million, and all the Communist countries combined, Ancient Rome, etc. Today, even in an academic setting the topic of abortion is so taboo when I debated this in my Philosophy of Ethics class, it devolved into a guy raising his voice at me with venom, and me doing likewise, until the T.A. had to intervene.

And plus - I'm not completely sure if such people like Tray Parker would be executed in the context of a Christian nation - after all, Theodora - Justinian's wife - performed sex shows with a guy dressed up as a goose, and we still have woodcut carvings from Rome of blasphemous pornographic content - bishops having sex, a parody female pope, etc. (I can't find these but I don't want to look them up lol), and even though such acts were extremely detested, they honestly should be, they still were nonetheless allowed to propagate to such an extent that this industry probably was successful but shunned. Of course, we have the internet and television which can make public a lot of these things for everyone to see, but maybe Christian law could be adapted to fit these technological norms.

Remember when people were absolutely shocked at Life of Brian and protested it? I don't, as I wasn't even conceived at that point, but I wish we had some defense for Our Lord in this age of apostasy.

I think that the AA episode in particular should cause outrage. I don't know the Guy's opinions on the matter, but I feel as though Christ finds disgusting and blasphemous portrayals of His Mother more offensive than disgusting portrayals of Christ Himself.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:52:03 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2017, 01:55:50 AM »
If you close the hospitals, police department or fire department for any given day, people will die. There are always emergencies no one could have foreseen.

Pretty sure that those are always exceptions to these kinds of laws.

I don't even think an exception applies. Hospitals, police departments, and fire departments aren't "shopping."
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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2017, 02:44:54 AM »
You might not want to call for their execution but it would be the natural side effect of an actual, consistent attempt at a "Christian nation." It's better to try and find common ground that everyone of all faiths can agree to.

But this basis on "common ground" seems implausible, because even though various religions have some venerable aspects of it, and generally they are consistent morally speaking, there are clear variations of what is seen as "moral" and "just," some of which are gravely sinful from a Christian perspective.

For example, Islam promotes polygamy and divorce, while at the same time advocating conquest and subduing others from its origins.

Hinduism made sex a major part of religious belief, even carving statues of fornication on these temples, which tends to shock Western tourists. There was also a historical problem of under age temple prostitutes which is still very much present to this day. Also, need I mention the adherents of Kali, who tortured people to adore their demon from hell?

Pharisaical Judaism is self explanatory, as Saint Paul "progressed far" in his own religion while living immorally.

And then you have so much "Christian" denominations which are so varied in their own morality that there is essentially a sect for every single grave sin in the book - Idolatry, Abortion, Drug Usage, Demonic Spirituality, Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Greed, etc.

Of course, all of these religions gradually over time gradually have become changed to be more in line with Christian morality - polygamy is taboo in less conservative sects of Islam, Hinduism has made an effort to try to minimize the significance or remove these problems, and Jews don't kill Christians anymore by stoning and crucifixion. This is all at the behest - historically - of Christian morality and international relations.

You can also prove objective moral Christian doctrine by looking at the correlation of consistent moral doctrine of what the majority of these religions believed and comparing it to Traditional Christian morality - Even though orgies were idolized in Pagan Rome, people still had a conception that "adultery" was morally wrong, as my letter from Pliny the Younger describes.
And you can use Christianity as the base as it is arguably the strictest of all ascetic religious traditions ("I say to you anybody who looks at a woman with lust commits adulterey with her in his heart.")
I also do not judge the conservative individuals in each of these sects - that is to the Great and Terrible Judge to decide, and I pray for their salvation, as I don't even know if I'll be saved - probably not.

And what exactly would this common ground be if it weren't for the pervasive influence of Christian morality, to check and balance when society decides to slightly change some aspects of it?

We've seen what happens when all of these moral apostates try to find "common ground." What ends up happening is that the majority, denying religious guidance, begins to distort their idea of morality and justice based on Not-Moral Relativism (that is, morality doesn't exist, but we will create arbitrary moral values that don't really exist and hate you if you don't stand up for these moral values that don't exist).

The common ground is "don't kill one another." Maybe it wasn't in the past, but it is now (even if I bought your claim that all moral development is ultimately traced back to direct Christian influence). Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

We have a tyranny of the majority when it comes to social issues - good luck bringing up a rational, not-hateful and non-emotional debate about abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, transgenderism, or drug legalization. And this isn't the only time secular governments deviated from Christian morality - for example, the genocide of Jews and other ethnic minority groups by the Nazis, Stalin killing at least 30 million, and all the Communist countries combined, Ancient Rome, etc. Today, even in an academic setting the topic of abortion is so taboo when I debated this in my Philosophy of Ethics class, it devolved into a guy raising his voice at me with venom, and me doing likewise, until the T.A. had to intervene.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

And plus - I'm not completely sure if such people like Tray Parker would be executed in the context of a Christian nation - after all, Theodora - Justinian's wife - performed sex shows with a guy dressed up as a goose, and we still have woodcut carvings from Rome of blasphemous pornographic content - bishops having sex, a parody female pope, etc. (I can't find these but I don't want to look them up lol), and even though such acts were extremely detested, they honestly should be, they still were nonetheless allowed to propagate to such an extent that this industry probably was successful but shunned. Of course, we have the internet and television which can make public a lot of these things for everyone to see, but maybe Christian law could be adapted to fit these technological norms.

Tell that to the monks who burned down synagogues and killed Hypatia. I'm sure some of them were baying for somebody like Theodora's blood and they could easily argue that their rulers were the ones who were compromising with the world.

Remember when people were absolutely shocked at Life of Brian and protested it? I don't, as I wasn't even conceived at that point, but I wish we had some defense for Our Lord in this age of apostasy.

I think that the AA episode in particular should cause outrage. I don't know the Guy's opinions on the matter, but I feel as though Christ finds disgusting and blasphemous portrayals of His Mother more offensive than disgusting portrayals of Christ Himself.

Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2017, 03:58:04 AM »

Yes, abortion will always be the soar thumb there, but if we're going to keep killing 18 year-olds in foreign meat grinders and slow death-by-poverty I'm not sure how much of a leg to stand on the Religious Right has when it comes to it.

Sometimes the choice is between a baby getting molested every step of the way in the hell of our adoption system or slowly starving to death alongside its mother and neither the church nor the state seems to be wiling or able to do much to help them. Slut shaming is all well and good I suppose, but sex is going to happen no matter how much forced Sunday worship you shove down people's throats and sometimes there's no easy option after it does. But please, keep picketing outside Planned Parenthood. I'm sure you're helping so much.

I've separated each section by the different fonts.

1. So the ends justify the means in terms of ending the suffering of those who don't really have an opinion to voice?
Would it be ethical to euthanize homeless people while they are sleeping because it would end his / her suffering and the suffering of society?
Or would it be ethical to euthanize a man with cancer who has a 30% survival rate while he is sleeping?

After all, you end the sufferings that these people will have to endure eventually and possibly die anyways...

Or maybe perhaps it's unethical because you are prohibiting a possibility of eventual happiness or positive experiences of life? Maybe one of these people becomes a nun or a monk and finds peace, or perhaps they - after hitting rock bottom - get back up and become a revolutionary to society! Or perhaps they freeze to death or cancer kills him. I think prohibiting such possibilities of happiness, even in light of inevitable suffering, is immoral, especially when they are given no option to voice an opinion on their own suicide.

I understood that society often puts people in terrible conditions - and yes, the adoption system is screwed up, as is our government - but I don't think the alternative is "baby murder;" rather, a reform of the institutions in place to deal with such problems would be adequate although not ideal of course.

2. I personally don't slut shame, and shame on the people who do. Honestly, in terms of the sin of lust, I am the biggest whore and I deserve to be stoned to death; we should love our sisters, and support them when they are pregnant, and to those who criticize the grave sins of others while ignoring their own grave sins, "anathema sit!"

And I hate your continuum fallacy. So, if "Sunday worship" and a societal normalization of abstinence for the purposes of striving for ascetic goals will reduce the number of pregnancies, while a societal normalization of casual hook-up one-stand sex increases the number of pregnancies, both are just as bad as one another because pregnancies will inevitably happen?

Say I wanted to build a house out of brick or wood, but out of the heavier material. I measure all the logs of wood I have, and all of the bricks I have, and I find that on average, the bricks are way heavier than the wood. However, there is one log which is heavier than a brick, therefore it doesn't matter whether or not I build my house out of bricks or wood?

3. If a woman is coerced to have an abortion by her boyfriend / husband and she doesn't want to, or maybe she has the resources to care for the child anyways, wouldn't talking to those people and offering them "devil's advocate" for their immoral choice be better? Plus, see 1.

Plus, regardless if you believe a society should be accepting of abortion or not, my question to you is the following: Why the hell should I be having my well-earned money to be taken from me against my will to fund programs that encourage abortions as well as give almost nothing but abortions? Not to mention the vile corruption that may or may not be going on in that wonderful agency. I would argue this is the new Herod.

Could be. Or maybe you came off like a shrill judgmental clown, as happens a lot when Christians try to discuss these things with nonchristians. It happens to me sometimes, too.

We ought to burn you at the stake for such a comment, you heretical piece of garbage!
Behold, the new Judas! The new Arius! Death to the heretic!

Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur! Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit, qui in ea voluptate velit esse, quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum, qui dolorem eum fugiat, quo voluptas nulla pariatur!

Amen!

(If you couldn't tell, this was a joke - people on this forum I feel fail to catch obvious sarcasm)


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Protests and boycotts are almost always nothing but mental masturbation for the otherwise lukewarm. There's a reason that era came to an end. Counter ideas with ideas, win hearts and minds, don't just try to burn the marketplace down--not least of all because it will make your own head look all the better on a platter if real persecution that doesn't happen at Starbucks ever comes to this country.

This is ole' Tocqueville's argument - that having a religious culture does not necessarily equivocate to having a doctrine subscribing population; and he (along with Mill) argues that religious diversity encourages fidelity to one's religious tradition. I don't know; in the long run, we can see the results of such apathy and "diversity" in the secular Western world, both from the 60's onwards to now and even in eras before that, like Nazi Germany, as previously pointed out. While I agree with the former argument, I would argue the contrary and say that there is definitely a correlation between culture and fidelity. I think those who were faithful to Orthodoxy under the Tsar were much more religious and Orthodox in their doctrine than most of us who have had to interract with the secular world (not that the Tsar was always the most perfect example of Christian humility or an ideal Christian government).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:02:01 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 04:07:37 AM »
This is good for Poland. Here in Bavaria, shops are always closed on Sundays and several (church) holidays such as
Easter Monday, Good Friday, Assumption of Mary, etc. .
By law, there are four Sundays in the year in total where shops are allowed to open, but many do not anyway.
I think the argument that it costs job is nonsense:
Do you think people will actually buy more in total when shops are open on Sundays?
And if they do, will that not prove that they bought more than they probably would have needed?
I tend to think that the Sunday volume will be distributed more or less evenly among the other six days.
This would lead shops to hire more people for those weekdays, if needed.
It´s always been that way where I am living and I like it: Live slows down at least once a week,
everyone knows it and it is largely accepted.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:15:47 AM by Lepanto »
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 05:07:12 AM »
Excellent!

I am of such a vintage that I can recall when all the department stores were closed on Sundays in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian.  There were a few grocery stores and pharmacies open, but only for limited (afternoon) hours.

I can also recall precisely how and when this changed.   There was a now defunct chain--Hills--that decided to be open on Sunday afternoons.  "Don't worry", the Christian community was told, "it will only be for a few hours".   2 - 6 quickly became 1 - 7 and within a year it was 10 - 10 just like any other day of the week.

The chain is went bankrupt and is no more.

God's sense of humor--or justice.

But Hills crumbled the Sunday Blue Laws and now Sunday is virtually no different than any other day of the week.

Hills failed because it was worse than the competition and was no longer relevant, no need for divine intervention; same with Gee Bees, Value City, Jamesway, Ames, Five-and-Tens, and most of the other outfits I remember from my days growing up in Pennsylvania.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 05:08:04 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Dominika

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 05:53:55 AM »
Yeah, the native Orthodox (that means: not counting Ukrainian immigrants) are there a little mroe than 1%. But you know, there are some villages and towns here that are predominantly Orthodox. I don't like, being a Pole, pereceing Poland as only RC country, since until the second world war over centuries Orthodox Christians were about half of the population.
So what do you think of shops closed on Sundays?

I'm familiar with the concept of closing shopping malls - some years ago it became popular among some Poles to go with all families to shopping malls on Sundays, do some shopping and sit in the restaurant/fast food part (you know, instead of places in the old town, some local restaurants close to the housing estate etc.). While I remember from my childhood going after churhc service on Sunday to a pattisery - there are huge crowds - to bu some cakes to meet with the family and friends at our home or at their.
There is a shop in my housing estate that works every, really every day, evne festal ones like Natiivty or Pascha - on tehse days its time opening is jsut shorter. It's a really bad thing.
So, I'd allowed to function restaurants, pattieseries etc. plus small local shops after the afternoon on Sundays. And definitely not on great feasts (1st and 2nd day of Natiivty, 1st January, Paschal Sunday and Paschal Monday, Pentecost Sunday, Corpus Christ, the Dormition etc.), but actually it's the current law.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Poland to ban Sunday shopping
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 11:44:54 AM »
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11


How is this even a topic for debate?

Things I don't see in that passage: "Sabbath observance must be required by Law (aka. enforced by the sword) in a post-OT nation-state with a mixed religion population."

Things I do see in that passage: A greater description of one of the 10 Commandments that are applicable to all of the Church Militant. It's also clearly a moral principle rather than simply an enforcement of said principle.

Keep the Sabbath, yes. Don't force other people (especially unbelievers) to at gun point.

I think that's the wrong angle to look at this from. The article mentioned the role of trade unions in supporting this law- I suspect that has at least as much importance as the attitudes of the Catholic Church. The law is protecting workers from being forced to work on Sundays.  If this is looked at as some kind of oppression against the shopkeepers, then so must the whole body of labor laws, e.g. the 8-hour day, vacation time, child labor bans, etc. And even though Catholics are rightly supporting it, it is really not something being imposed by Catholics on the unbelievers- there is a whole history in the socialist and labor movement of advocating Sunday as a day of rest. The firmly anti-religious Proudhon for instance was a firm advocate for it.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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