Author Topic: Catholic-Orthodox "journeying toward unity"-Fr. Joseph Wallace. Council in 2025?  (Read 4648 times)

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Offline 123abc

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 12:38:55 PM by 123abc »

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.

You just lack charity.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.

You just lack charity.

Who are you?

Offline WPM

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I don't like the OP or thread title

I don't like your post.


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Offline Vanhyo

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.
Well, he can't calls us such in this forum because by doing so he risks to have his posting rights revoked, but if he takes his faith seriously its logical for him think this way.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 02:29:16 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline 123abc

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.
Well, he can't calls us such in this forum because by doing so he risks to have his posting rights revoked, but if he takes his faith seriously its logical for him think this way.

One does not have to engage in dishonest flattery and patronizing comments in order to prevent oneself from being banned, however. I mind myself when I'm posting on Catholic sites but I don't try to butter them up, either.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.
Well, he can't calls us such in this forum because by doing so he risks to have his posting rights revoked, but if he takes his faith seriously its logical for him think this way.

One does not have to engage in dishonest flattery and patronizing comments in order to prevent oneself from being banned, however. I mind myself when I'm posting on Catholic sites but I don't try to butter them up, either.

Yeah.... I need to mind myself more and listen to you on that one site. However, my very antagonizing responses of recently - to be fair - were to his post claiming that the Orthodox lack Apostolic Succession because they aren't in communion with Peter, and calling those who leave the Roman Catholic Church into "Greek heresy" as "apostates." Which only spiraled downward with me giving some rather harsh comments, eventually leading into the debate of "which bread Christ used."

Although my posts tend to be rather snobbish and prideful - I will agree with Mor that I need to work on my spiritual life first.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 10:50:28 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of Christ.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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I don't like the OP or thread title
Xavier seem like a nice person with good intentions, he just doesn't realize some things..

Unfortunately I find his posting style somewhat duplicitous. On here he is usually offering compliments and referring to us as "brethren in Christ." However, on a certain traditional Catholic board which we are both members of, he refers to us as schismatics, heretics, obstinate etc. I'd have more respect for him as a poster if he didn't drip honey here while engaging in invective elsewhere.

You just lack charity.

Who are you?

Spoiler alert, Mor was a Coptic Catholic the whole time!
Jesus:you are the reincarnation of Elijah you can trust me I'm jesus!

LivenotoneviL: yeah right get behind me satan

Exposed demon: oh no my cover is blown!

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of Christ.

Offline byhisgrace

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Hasn't ecumenical dialog been going on for decades now? Why would calling it a council make anything any more conclusive?

Quote
Orthodox cannot really give a consistent basis for determining truth in a Council.

Why would they want to show up to a council if people like you are just going to insult their intelligence when they get there? "Welcome, brothers! Now, stop being stupid and believe everything we tell you!" Would you expect Catholic bishops to respond well to that kind of treatment from the Orthodox?

Nope, nobody said or would say "believe everything we tell you." We will prove it from Scripture and Tradition.

Six of one half dozen of the other, especially if you insist that only Magisterium-approved interpretations are valid. It's called stacking the deck and is the same basic reason that discussions between Rome and Protestants almost never get anywhere.

But there must be a norm for a Council to take place. Either (1) Papal presidency serves as an arbiter, with Roman legates presiding as they historically did or (2) Episcopal consensus is necessary, when documents are put up to vote, they are determined by majority consensus or (3) both, or something like that. Otherwise, discussions will be interminable, as often they currently are.

Well, there's never going to be any agreement on that, so why even call for a council in the first place?


Orthodox cannot really give a consistent basis for determining truth in a Council. Is Papal presidency a necessary arbiter? Is at least episcopal consensus sufficient?
When all else fails, pull out the epistemological argument. Strangely the Orthodox have managed to maintain the Faith and practice of the Church all while separated from Her 'head'.

Speculating about a Council is useless. The Orthodox are simply not ready for that considering all their internal infighting.
As pointed out above, Crete has shown at least one thing: They are currently not in a shape or unwilling to meet even without any Catholic interference.
Unfortunately, the Catholic church is equally totally not ready for it. We both need to sort out a few important things first,
before such a Council could even be thought of. There are so many things happening right now which could derail any
attempt in that direction. So much would depend on the next bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Moscow.
Even if all those problems disappeared somehow "magically",
I am highly skeptical about the chances for success and more than a bit concerned about the possible dangers.

+1 to all these posts.

One of the problems of having an Orthodox-Catholic council at this point is that most (if not all) attendants of both sides will have already made up their mind of what such "reunion" would look like. Roman Catholics want all Orthodox to accept everything they teach, while the Orthodox want all Roman Catholics to recant of their exclusive doctrines. Sure, maybe some good discussions can sway some people for a compromise if not a conversion, but I think the facts of history and theology are subtle enough that most people aren't going to come to an agreed upon interpretation. Maybe for some apologists, the evidence is "clear" for their side, but they are delusional if they think that any honest, intelligent, and studious inquirer will come to the same conclusions that they have. 
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Offline ErmyCath

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The problem with reunion is that, from a natural perspective, it is impossible.

If Roman Catholics were to change their doctrines now, it would disprove the veracity of their claims since they would necessarily be repudiating doctrines defined as part of their infallible magisterium. That means that those among them who entered into a union would be denounced by the remainder as having defected so that the Roman Catholic Church would simply continue along without those who entered into the union.

There is a similar problem in Orthodoxy. Whatever local churches entered into such a union would be denounced by other local churches and, presumably, new bishops appointed to the sees of those who had defected.

Put more simply, neither side can now change positions on certain defined doctrines without undermining their teaching authority. So the only seemingly possible path toward "reunion" is return -- that is, one side or the other renouncing its doctrines in favor of the other side's definitions. But still, that will not result in a holistic reunion because individuals who make up the renouncing side will simply not go along.
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Offline Sharbel

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The problem with reunion is that, from a natural perspective, it is impossible...
+1

I quite agree.  Perhaps, like with so many other separated churches throughout history, the faithful eventually came to the orthodox side, regardless of numbers and times.  It is, after all, God's Church and He is the one in control.
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Offline kabane52

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A restoration of communion is not going to happen bureaucratically. I long for the resumption of communion between East and West (once the theological issues are resolved), but nobody should pretend that a council held between the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch would mean anything. The Church of Constantinople itself has less than a thousand faithful. The Ecumenical Patriarch is the primate of the patriarchal synod, but he has no authority to place the pope’s name in the diptychs of those bishops on the patriarchal synod, much less the diptychs of the Orthodox churches spread throughout the world.

The only way a restoration of unity will ever occur is if Catholics and Orthodox are thrown together into the furnace of persecution. Only then will a genuine integration of the Christian life of East and West occur. And it’s only when it has occurred organically that a formal union can be established. Attempts to impose union by one or two ecclesiastical officials were tried and failed throughout the Middle Ages. If you want unity, then pray daily for unity. I am not against careful ecumenical dialogue committed to truth, but as St. Paul says, whomever it is that waters, “God gives the growth.” To put it simply, the end of the great schism will require a miracle. I think that God intends to work one. I don’t know when.

Offline Lepanto

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A restoration of communion is not going to happen bureaucratically. I long for the resumption of communion between East and West (once the theological issues are resolved), but nobody should pretend that a council held between the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch would mean anything. The Church of Constantinople itself has less than a thousand faithful. The Ecumenical Patriarch is the primate of the patriarchal synod, but he has no authority to place the pope’s name in the diptychs of those bishops on the patriarchal synod, much less the diptychs of the Orthodox churches spread throughout the world.

The only way a restoration of unity will ever occur is if Catholics and Orthodox are thrown together into the furnace of persecution. Only then will a genuine integration of the Christian life of East and West occur. And it’s only when it has occurred organically that a formal union can be established. Attempts to impose union by one or two ecclesiastical officials were tried and failed throughout the Middle Ages. If you want unity, then pray daily for unity. I am not against careful ecumenical dialogue committed to truth, but as St. Paul says, whomever it is that waters, “God gives the growth.” To put it simply, the end of the great schism will require a miracle. I think that God intends to work one. I don’t know when.
+1. Indeed, I think extreme circumstances would be required. And I do not think those circumstances are exactly something we should wish for. Apart from that, I think that nothing short of a miracle can help.
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Offline Sharbel

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The only way a restoration of unity will ever occur is if Catholics and Orthodox are thrown together into the furnace of persecution.
As it already happens in Lebanon and Syria, where the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox faithful are allowed to receive Holy Communion from any of these Churches.
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Offline JoeS2

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Personally, too much water has passed under the bridge.  There are too many theological and dogmatic obstacles that would have to be over come.   Me thinks the second coming of Christ wil come before any unity is realized.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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I think there is hope for the Oriental Orthodox communion - obviously, there are elements of modernism in there, but nevertheless, there should be some honest, heartfelt debates about our understandings of Christologies, and if their understanding is the same as ours, if the other 4 Ecumenical Councils could be seen as Ecumenical.

I think the Roman Catholic Church needs either to fall or to have a new generation of young, enthusiastic, and traditionalist Catholics to run into their church, honoring liturgical tradition if there is any - and I mean ANY - hope of reunion. If not, their church will crumble into the ground with their papal doctrine, with only some Sedevacantist or SSPX factions hanging around. "Pride cometh before the fall."
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May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of Christ.

Offline Sharbel

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I think the Roman Catholic Church needs either to fall or to have a new generation of young, enthusiastic, and traditionalist Catholics to run into their church, honoring liturgical tradition if there is any - and I mean ANY - hope of reunion. If not, their church will crumble into the ground with their papal doctrine, with only some Sedevacantist or SSPX factions hanging around. "Pride cometh before the fall."
Rome has cornered itself repeatedly since the 11th century.  Its habit of dogmatizing its theological speculations led to innovations being concocted and then dogmatized themselves (e.g., original sin and immaculate conception), and so on.  The contradictions have kept piling up, reaching the pinnacle of weakness with dogmatizing papal supremacy and infallibility.  And, since Sedevacantists and traditionalists subscribe to the same doctrinal castle of cards, they will succumb together with Rome.  How, if not by the faithful discovering the Ancient Faith?  The Orthodox Church has everything that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.
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Offline Volnutt

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Yeah, they can trade their drama and confusion for the drama and confusion of arguments over calendars and nationalist politics and which bishop is skimming off the till.

Theology is one thing. But overselling the earthly realities doesn't help anybody.
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Offline Lepanto

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  The Orthodox Church has everything that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.
Hah! Free of drama and confusion, is it? Come on, you know better than that. Fully delivering the Church from drama and confusion will require HIS return. The ecclesia militans never is free of it. The same old theme: Come, you poor trad Catholics, find peace in the one true church. When the conversion zeal wears off, what remains? Just more division and arguments.
@Volnutt: Good post.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:35:22 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline Alpha60

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I think the Roman Catholic Church needs either to fall or to have a new generation of young, enthusiastic, and traditionalist Catholics to run into their church, honoring liturgical tradition if there is any - and I mean ANY - hope of reunion. If not, their church will crumble into the ground with their papal doctrine, with only some Sedevacantist or SSPX factions hanging around. "Pride cometh before the fall."
Rome has cornered itself repeatedly since the 11th century.  Its habit of dogmatizing its theological speculations led to innovations being concocted and then dogmatized themselves (e.g., original sin and immaculate conception), and so on.  The contradictions have kept piling up, reaching the pinnacle of weakness with dogmatizing papal supremacy and infallibility.  And, since Sedevacantists and traditionalists subscribe to the same doctrinal castle of cards, they will succumb together with Rome.  How, if not by the faithful discovering the Ancient Faith?  The Orthodox Church has everything that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.

The Orthodox Church to be fair also believes in original sin; we simply prefer the approach taken by St. John Cassian as opposed to the Augustinian idea that original sin is transmitted via coitus (a concept which required Rome to develop a complex array of problematic theological support struts, like the Immaculate Conception, which in turn fuels a dangerous tendency towards Mariolatry among some of the less theologically grounded Catholics, which in turn gives rise to the prolonged tolerance of farces such as the Ida Peerdeman “Marian Apparition” and Medjugorje.
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Offline Volnutt

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I think the Roman Catholic Church needs either to fall or to have a new generation of young, enthusiastic, and traditionalist Catholics to run into their church, honoring liturgical tradition if there is any - and I mean ANY - hope of reunion. If not, their church will crumble into the ground with their papal doctrine, with only some Sedevacantist or SSPX factions hanging around. "Pride cometh before the fall."
Rome has cornered itself repeatedly since the 11th century.  Its habit of dogmatizing its theological speculations led to innovations being concocted and then dogmatized themselves (e.g., original sin and immaculate conception), and so on.  The contradictions have kept piling up, reaching the pinnacle of weakness with dogmatizing papal supremacy and infallibility.  And, since Sedevacantists and traditionalists subscribe to the same doctrinal castle of cards, they will succumb together with Rome.  How, if not by the faithful discovering the Ancient Faith?  The Orthodox Church has everything that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.

The Orthodox Church to be fair also believes in original sin; we simply prefer the approach taken by St. John Cassian as opposed to the Augustinian idea that original sin is transmitted via coitus (a concept which required Rome to develop a complex array of problematic theological support struts, like the Immaculate Conception, which in turn fuels a dangerous tendency towards Mariolatry among some of the less theologically grounded Catholics, which in turn gives rise to the prolonged tolerance of farces such as the Ida Peerdeman “Marian Apparition” and Medjugorje.

Kind of off-topic, but I'm not at all sure that all of that can be pinned on the IC- at least not in a way that can't equally be applied to Orthodox views of Mary's sinlessness.


EDIT: Corrected an unfortunate error in wording.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 02:22:48 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline kabane52

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I don’t know that the Immaculate Conception is the irreconcilable obstacle to unity that it is presented as. Medieval Orthodox theologians were aware of the intra-Western debate and commented on it. St. Gennadius Scholarius, who was an anti-unionist, commented on it in defense of the Immaculate Conception, and St. Dimitri of Rostov, if memory serves, named a monastery after the Immaculate Conception. The problem with Rome’s definition is that it leaves open the question of whether the Blessed Virgin dies. I accept the IC when it is understood that it refers to concupiscence, and that her death was still necessary, not contingent.

As for original sin, the Orthodox Church teaches original sin, as is evident by the Council of Trullo’s incorporation of the canons of the Council of Carthage which taught original sin. See this piece, which compiles the teaching of original sin from historic Orthodox confessions and catechisms:

http://razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/03/original-sin-in-eastern-orthodox.html

The notion that original sin is not an Orthodox teaching seems to make its first appearance in the writings of Fr. John Romanides, who was really an innovator.

Concerning Augustine’s idea that it was transmitted through the conjugal act, St. Maximus taught something similar, though more precise: that the transmission of original sin occurred because of the pleasure-pain dialectic present for fallen humans in the conjugal act. St. Paisios actually pointed the way towards an understanding of the status of the Theotokos in describing a revelation he was given about her conception. According to St. Paisios, Ss. Joachim and Anna engaged in the conjugal act in a way which was passionless. What this means is not that they hated sex, but that in the act which conceived Our Lady, each person gave him/herself to their spouse perfectly. There was no pleasure-pain dialectic, thereby preserving Our Lady from concupiscence.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:14:25 AM by kabane52 »

Offline Volnutt

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How could she be preserved from concupiscence but not from death?
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Offline Rohzek

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I don’t know that the Immaculate Conception is the irreconcilable obstacle to unity that it is presented as. Medieval Orthodox theologians were aware of the intra-Western debate and commented on it. St. Gennadius Scholarius, who was an anti-unionist, commented on it in defense of the Immaculate Conception, and St. Dimitri of Rostov, if memory serves, named a monastery after the Immaculate Conception. The problem with Rome’s definition is that it leaves open the question of whether the Blessed Virgin dies. I accept the IC when it is understood that it refers to concupiscence, and that her death was still necessary, not contingent.

As for original sin, the Orthodox Church teaches original sin, as is evident by the Council of Trullo’s incorporation of the canons of the Council of Carthage which taught original sin. See this piece, which compiles the teaching of original sin from historic Orthodox confessions and catechisms:

http://razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/03/original-sin-in-eastern-orthodox.html

The notion that original sin is not an Orthodox teaching seems to make its first appearance in the writings of Fr. John Romanides, who was really an innovator.

Concerning Augustine’s idea that it was transmitted through the conjugal act, St. Maximus taught something similar, though more precise: that the transmission of original sin occurred because of the pleasure-pain dialectic present for fallen humans in the conjugal act. St. Paisios actually pointed the way towards an understanding of the status of the Theotokos in describing a revelation he was given about her conception. According to St. Paisios, Ss. Joachim and Anna engaged in the conjugal act in a way which was passionless. What this means is not that they hated sex, but that in the act which conceived Our Lady, each person gave him/herself to their spouse perfectly. There was no pleasure-pain dialectic, thereby preserving Our Lady from concupiscence.

If I recall correctly, the canons from Carthage do not embrace St. Augustine's radical teachings on an inherited personal guilt. So linking the Carthaginian canons to the universal level of Orthodoxy via Trullo does not really translate into the particular version of Original Sin that is being attacked by Orthodox when they consider the Immaculate Conception. This is not to say that the IC can only originate out of this particular rendition of Original Sin that Orthodox object to, but within the historical context of the Catholic Church, this conception was a major factor in its dogmatization.
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Offline Sharbel

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... that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.
Methinks that the words I highlighted above were read disregarding the words preceding them.  The Orthodox Church is generally free of the drama in liturgy that devout Catholics dread and the doctrinal confusion by a cohort of babbling hierarchs that makes traditional Catholics cringe.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:35:09 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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... that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.
Methinks that the words I highlighted above were read disregarding the words preceding them.  The Orthodox Church is generally free of the drama in liturgy that devout Catholics dread and the doctrinal confusion by a cohort of babbling hierarchs that makes traditional Catholics cringe.

Yeah....

but I think Lepanto brings up a good about babbling hierarchs; we still have flawed sinners running the Church, and we probably have heterodox hierarchs in the Orthodox Church who would love a dismantling of Liturgical worship, false ecumenism, and social liberalism.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 11:02:39 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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... that devout, traditional Catholics love and yearn to be free of drama and confusion.
Methinks that the words I highlighted above were read disregarding the words preceding them.  The Orthodox Church is generally free of the drama in liturgy that devout Catholics dread and the doctrinal confusion by a cohort of babbling hierarchs that makes traditional Catholics cringe.

Define "doctrinal?" Yes, there's nothing like the NO or Amoris Laetitia or clown masses, but when you have Orthodox priests and bishops acting like pews and organs and the Gregorian Calendar are the Whore of Babylon, doesn't that impinge on doctrine even a little? When you have the MP acting like Ukraine continuing to be under Putin's heel is some kind of eschatological mandate, doesn't that impinge on doctrine? When GOARCH is being torn apart by battles over who, clerical or lay, gets to own and manage parish property, doesn't that impinge on doctrine?

The lines are more blurred than we'd all like to admit and can be just as soul destroying, I'll wager. That's my only point.
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