Author Topic: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?  (Read 12897 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« on: November 20, 2017, 12:13:43 AM »
Has anyone felt deceived or annoyed or felt like questioning their Faith when one notices the various contradictions in the history of the Church to what Orthodox priests or Orthodox theologians tell you? Or perhaps what you learn about Orthodoxy?

I feel like such a great portion of learning the differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism - from the Orthodox perspective - often comes from deceit, and it annoys me.

For example, I've heard about how statues are idolatrous and are an "innovation" by Roman Catholicism, and were never a part of the Tradition of the Church!

Yet.....






(From the 4th Century)



http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1901.htm

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/eusebius-and-christian-images/

Or how "evil" indulgences are by those accursed Roman Catholics!

Yet...

http://www.jameslikoudispage.com/Ecumenic/indulgences.htm
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates

Or how "Us Orthodox don't believe there are any Sacraments outside the Church!!!!"

Yet...Saint Augustine...

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2012/06/28/the-limits-of-the-church-by-fr-georges-florovsky/

Or "We Orthodox don't pray the Rosary! It is a heterodox devotion!"

Yet...

http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/rosary.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Theotokos

Or "We Orthodox don't distinguish between Mortal and Venial Sin! This is a rationalistic distinction!"

Yet...

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/exo_sintypes.aspx


Or "We can't stand that accursed realism in our iconography! I despise that Roman Catholic artwork!!!! I ESPECIALLY HATE HOW THEY PORTRAY GOD THE FATHER IN ICONOGRAPHY HOW DARE THEY hFASKDFHasdKFHASddflshkdflkhas!!!!"

Yet...



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour_in_Moscow_06.JPG

https://ryanphunter.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/cathedral_of_christ_the_saviour_in_moscow_04.jpg


Or "We can't possibly receive people by Chrismation!!!! The Roman Catholics are heretics!!!"

Yet at various points in history, the Roman Catholics were received by Chrismation...and under Peter the Great, by just a Confession!

And there are just boggling questions about Orthodoxy in which I just don't flat out know the answer to. Like, how do we know if we are in communion with a heretical Church or not? If a Patriarchate falls into heresy and isn't excommunicated, is the entirety of that one Church damned to hell? I mean, when the Oriental Orthodox broke communion, did they just lose Grace and some ignorant peasant couldn't hypothesize about the difference between Miaphysitism or Dyophysitism? "Sorry God, I didn't know there was a difference between one union in nature and one union in hypostasis!" Did the Russian Orthodox Church lose Grace when the Soviets made it proclaim heresy?

What if the Orthodox Church splits into two; What if like 7/8 of the Orthodox Church falls into heresy? How would we know?

And then there are questions like contraception and divorce. Like, some priests say it is an excommunicatable sin to use condoms inside marriage, and will say it's eternally damnable to use NFP - but some priests will say "go ahead and do it all you want! Just don't do it too much and have kids!" How do we know what is moral and what isn't, on such an important issue? and for divorce, it is immoral unless its for a reason of adultery or immorality...yet Maria of Paris just divorced just to become a nun!

All of this boggles my mind; has anyone experienced doubt when they learn of these things?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:25:10 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 12:26:36 AM »
Another one - "we don't use instruments, like those evil Roman Catholics, who used a Pipe Organ in their liturgy!"

Yet, I've seen several Greek Orthodox Byzantine Liturgies which use a pipe organ - and I've seen some Western Rite Orthodox Liturgies which also use a pipe organ!

And then there is the absolute CRUSADE against "Scholasticism" in Theology, yet nobody - NOBODY - has been able to yet distinguish between John of Damascus, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, and the Cappadocian Fathers and how they differed in their methodology and use of logic with Thomas Aquinas.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:29:37 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 12:28:58 AM »
Yeah, there's inconsistencies. I'm sure you could find inconsistencies in Catholicism as well, though. I don't think it's a reason to doubt, all churches are filled with fallible people. It is a reason not to be really cavalier and triumphalist.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:35:34 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline RobS

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 12:35:33 AM »
"Scholasticism" in Theology, yet nobody - NOBODY - has been able to yet distinguish between John of Damascus, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, and the Cappadocian Fathers and how they differed in their methodology and use of logic with Thomas Aquinas.
On this I agree. What is St. John Damascene's "Exact Exposition on the Orthodox Faith" nothing more than a proto-Summa Theologiae?
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Offline RobS

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 12:36:38 AM »
Yeah, there's inconsistencies.
What inconsistencies do you find meaningful? Or stumbling blocks?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 12:39:37 AM »
But I feel like a lot of the deceit is so upfront and available on the internet to the point that it is really frustrating.

https://oca.org/questions/sacramentconfession/sin
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/the-rosary
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/indulgences
https://oca.org/questions/liturgicarts/images-of-god
http://antiochian.org/icons-eastern-orthodoxy

I wouldn't call it deceit, that's going a bit too far. Everybody makes overextended arguments sometimes.

Most of the things you mentioned above were pretty limited in extent historically, anyway, and a lot of Orthodox arguments are based on majority use over time. Yes, it would be nice if the various polemicists acknowledged the anomalous in their arguments more often, but I don't think that's necessarily out of a desire to deceive just a tendency to consider all customs at variance with one's own reasoning to have been more or less local errors.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 12:42:16 AM »
But I feel like a lot of the deceit is so upfront and available on the internet to the point that it is really frustrating.

https://oca.org/questions/sacramentconfession/sin
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/the-rosary
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/indulgences
https://oca.org/questions/liturgicarts/images-of-god
http://antiochian.org/icons-eastern-orthodoxy

I wouldn't call it deceit, that's going a bit too far. Everybody makes overextended arguments sometimes.

Most of the things you mentioned above were pretty limited in extent historically, anyway, and a lot of Orthodox arguments are based on majority use over time. Yes, it would be nice if the various polemicists acknowledged the anomalous in their arguments more often, but I don't think that's necessarily out of a desire to deceive just a tendency to consider all customs at variance with one's own reasoning to have been more or less local errors.

So, are we going to say that Saint Seraphim Sarov (on the Rosary), Saint John Chrysostom and Eusebius (on Statues), and Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite (on the Categories of Sin) are all in error when they wrote / practiced these things?

Call it prejudice from my Roman Catholic background, but like all of these things were essentially shoved down my throat on what I have to reject and what I have to keep - most of the above mentioned in the former category - and I find it bothersome that such practices were completely acceptable by essentially the entirety of the Church at various points in history (statues, "absolution certificates" which were confirmed by all the Patriarchs [read the Orthodox Wiki article when it comes back up], and the Rosary)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:44:05 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 12:44:05 AM »
Quote
And there are just boggling questions about Orthodoxy in which I just don't flat out know the answer to. Like, how do we know if we are in communion with a heretical Church or not? If a Patriarchate falls into heresy and isn't excommunicated, is the entirety of that one Church damned to hell? I mean, when the Oriental Orthodox broke communion, did they just lose Grace and some ignorant peasant couldn't hypothesize about the difference between Miaphysitism or Dyophysitism? "Sorry God, I didn't know there was a difference between one union in nature and one union in hypostasis!" Did the Russian Orthodox Church lose Grace when the Soviets made it proclaim heresy?

What if the Orthodox Church splits into two; What if like 7/8 of the Orthodox Church falls into heresy? How would we know?

And then there are questions like contraception and divorce. Like, some priests say it is an excommunicatable sin to use condoms inside marriage, and will say it's eternally damnable to use NFP - but some priests will say "go ahead and do it all you want! Just don't do it too much and have kids!" How do we know what is moral and what isn't, on such an important issue? and for divorce, it is immoral unless its for a reason of adultery or immorality...yet Maria of Paris just divorced just to become a nun!

Enter Isa talking about annulment "Corban factories"...

Basic Papal Supremacy/Infallibility and Catholic social stuff that has been argued on these boards ad nauseum. It doesn't seem fair to include all that in a list of uniquely Orthodox inconsistencies.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 12:45:27 AM »
Quote
And there are just boggling questions about Orthodoxy in which I just don't flat out know the answer to. Like, how do we know if we are in communion with a heretical Church or not? If a Patriarchate falls into heresy and isn't excommunicated, is the entirety of that one Church damned to hell? I mean, when the Oriental Orthodox broke communion, did they just lose Grace and some ignorant peasant couldn't hypothesize about the difference between Miaphysitism or Dyophysitism? "Sorry God, I didn't know there was a difference between one union in nature and one union in hypostasis!" Did the Russian Orthodox Church lose Grace when the Soviets made it proclaim heresy?

What if the Orthodox Church splits into two; What if like 7/8 of the Orthodox Church falls into heresy? How would we know?

And then there are questions like contraception and divorce. Like, some priests say it is an excommunicatable sin to use condoms inside marriage, and will say it's eternally damnable to use NFP - but some priests will say "go ahead and do it all you want! Just don't do it too much and have kids!" How do we know what is moral and what isn't, on such an important issue? and for divorce, it is immoral unless its for a reason of adultery or immorality...yet Maria of Paris just divorced just to become a nun!

Enter Isa talking about annulment "Corban factories"...

Basic Papal Supremacy/Infallibility and Catholic social stuff that has been argued on these boards ad nauseum. It doesn't seem fair to include all that in a list of uniquely Orthodox inconsistencies.

You want inconsistency? Compare the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent to Vatican II. Or compare Vigilius and Honorius to Vatican I.

But these Orthodox inconsistencies are things which I generally have come up by myself, and I'm annoyed by them.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:46:39 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline RobS

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 12:45:44 AM »
I believe the nuns at the Diyeevo monastery in Russia still do hail Mary's.

There's some other Western influence like the icons of Extreme Humility and Softener of Hearts. I think they are beautiful icons (I have both in my prayer corner).
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline RobS

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 12:49:22 AM »
Quote
and for divorce, it is immoral unless its for a reason of adultery or immorality...yet Maria of Paris just divorced just to become a nun

Or St John Kronstadt defrauding his wife by not having sex.

But I'm not convinced any of the stuff you have posted has defiled the faith.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 12:52:02 AM »
But I feel like a lot of the deceit is so upfront and available on the internet to the point that it is really frustrating.

https://oca.org/questions/sacramentconfession/sin
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/the-rosary
https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/indulgences
https://oca.org/questions/liturgicarts/images-of-god
http://antiochian.org/icons-eastern-orthodoxy

I wouldn't call it deceit, that's going a bit too far. Everybody makes overextended arguments sometimes.

Most of the things you mentioned above were pretty limited in extent historically, anyway, and a lot of Orthodox arguments are based on majority use over time. Yes, it would be nice if the various polemicists acknowledged the anomalous in their arguments more often, but I don't think that's necessarily out of a desire to deceive just a tendency to consider all customs at variance with one's own reasoning to have been more or less local errors.

So, are we going to say that Saint Seraphim Sarov (on the Rosary), Saint John Chrysostom and Eusebius (on Statues), and Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite (on the Categories of Sin) are all in error when they wrote / practiced these things?

Why not (also, general scholarly consensus is that Eusebius was mistaken about that statue)? It's not like they would be heretics if they were wrong about something like that. Regardless, it's not like it's hard to find Orthodox who argue for those things. Do Catholics ever disagree on doctrine (rhetorical question)? Heck, some of them can't even agree on whether the Pope is a heretic or not.

Also, it's not as though Orthodox arguments against statues or indulgences are just based on simple appeals to tradition. Indulgences, for example, don't really make a lot of sense in Orthodox theology as far as I can tell since there's no temporal purgatory to buy your way out of. And even if there was, again, it's not like the Catholic Church even sells them anymore.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 12:54:28 AM »
Even if we would disagree with Orthodoxy on those objections, there is still the crucial problem of unilateral papal supremacy and papal infallibility. Orthodox cant accept those claims because it would spell the end of any orthodox objections to Rome. If we accept that the Pope is our bishops bishop and infallible ex cathedra, we have to give up every single theological objection. It would not be a merger or reunion, but a relationship of total domination and surrender.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 01:08:58 AM »
Quote
and for divorce, it is immoral unless its for a reason of adultery or immorality...yet Maria of Paris just divorced just to become a nun

Or St John Kronstadt defrauding his wife by not having sex.

But I'm not convinced any of the stuff you have posted has defiled the faith.

Believe me, Roman Catholic saints (from my knowledge) aren't much better;
like Francis of Assisi stealing his father's clothes from the shop and selling them to rebuild churches and give to the poor, which got him (his father) reasonably angry; and Francis just kind of running away, saying "sorry, gotta become a monastic!"
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 01:12:56 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2017, 04:30:08 AM »
The inconsistencies you mentioned let you hesitate - as they should.
On the other hand, as you mentioned, it is not as if there were no inconsistencies within the Catholic church.

What does this mean? Is there no longer any church which possesses the fullness of truth?
This is a thought that crossed my mind in the past. Could it be that at some point in history,
the church kind of lost its way, split up and essentially vanished?

As you know, this is not possible as Christ himself promised that the church would not perish -
"et portae inferi not praevalebunt eam".
I take HIM at HIS word!

Anyway, could it be that giving up on the outer sign of unity (the bishop of Rome) is bound
to lead to ever more division?


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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 06:24:57 AM »
Don’t confuse braindead modern pop Orthodox apologetics with Orthodoxy.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline William T

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 07:05:17 AM »
If you learn a new subject,  switch from one trade to another, visit a foreign country for a long time,  listen to a coach teaching you a sport,  look at any sophisticated and functioning legal apparatus, study any life science or whatever....they are always going to sound contradictory if you only have a brief or superficial grasp of them.  I don't think anyone should expect anything else from a sophisticated and developed religion that has roots all the way back to Abraham. If you can practice patience leaning a new job,  or moving to a new location this ought be given at least that kind of respect.

Besides check the qualifications of someone handing out general statements as if they're gospel and the third greatest commandment Christ gave .   If they seem hardline about it,  and it's just one random dude on the internet,  who cares? That should at least send off yellow flags.   They're may be some truth in the things stated,  but you have to let these things unfold and get the context.   If all else fails,  just ask  li your priest.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 07:08:17 AM by William T »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 07:59:56 AM »
The inconsistencies you mentioned let you hesitate - as they should.
On the other hand, as you mentioned, it is not as if there were no inconsistencies within the Catholic church.

What does this mean? Is there no longer any church which possesses the fullness of truth?
This is a thought that crossed my mind in the past. Could it be that at some point in history,
the church kind of lost its way, split up and essentially vanished?

As you know, this is not possible as Christ himself promised that the church would not perish -
"et portae inferi not praevalebunt eam".
I take HIM at HIS word!

Anyway, could it be that giving up on the outer sign of unity (the bishop of Rome) is bound
to lead to ever more division?

Could it be that the outer sign of unity never really was one, or at least hasn't been in any meaningful sense since at least Vat II?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 11:31:09 AM »

Focus on the core of the Faith, not the outer garments.

You will find "differences" between two parishes located on the same street...and yet, they are both fully Orthdodox.

The Canons were written to preserve the Church and safeguard her from threats which were present at that time in the history of the world.  We were told not to frequent Jewish physicians, because at the time, when Christianity was still in its infancy, and Christians were persecuted...a Jew would have most likely tried to get the Christian to reject Christ.  While that can still happen...it is less likely in today's society.

Same with statues.  There existed "statues" (engraved/embossed) per God's direction on the Ark of the Covenant, however, they are used as decoration or embellishment and not to be worshiped or prayed to.  Having an angel embossed on an ikonostas is different than bowing to a statue of Krishna.

What I am trying to say is that over the years "styles" have come and gone.  The Baroque style church sited above, reflects the style of the day, and Western influence of the time.  Was it canonically correct?  No.  Did it lead to idol worship?  No. 

You have to remember, that historically, many churches were built by the faithful, who perhaps didn't even know the canon law...but, built what they thought was beautiful for God.  They did not have all the books we have, no Internet on which to research and discuss things....they did the best they could.

Even today...no two parishes will be identical.  Not in "look", not in "practice". 

But, this is all surface stuff....the teachings all remain the same.

Whether there are pews, women with covered heads, embroideries on icons, embossed gilded angels, etc....the Sacraments are to be found there....and Christ is there. 

Don't let the shiny stuff distract you.
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 11:49:44 AM »
Don’t confuse braindead modern pop Orthodox apologetics with Orthodoxy.

+1

A lot of it is marketing, not evangelisation.

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 11:54:00 AM »
To borrow an Aristotelian/Thomistic distinction, perhaps you could question whether the inconsistencies pertain to the substance or the accidents. Presumably, what you should find most bothersome are perceived inconsistencies in substance, the dogmatic and doctrinal. How the substance of the faith manifests itself concretely over time and will always be inconsistent because the faith must be conveyed and lived in a concrete time and place.

Where the substance of the faith changes, though, there is a real problem. Consider that Roman Catholicism argues that the faith affirmatively develops over time. For example, scholasticism is based on the idea that the philosopher-theologians in medieval universities were better equipped to elaborate the faith than were the apostles. Not only does this supposition explain the difference between St. John's Exact Exposition and later scholastic writings, which you specifically referenced, but it provides an overall framework for evaluating the differences between the two.

Perhaps it would be good to consider the question who seems more concerned about innovations. There will always be individuals and groups seeking to introduce some novelty. Which do you think does a more consistent job of rejecting novelty, both at the present and historically: Orthodoxy or Catholicism?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 12:26:08 PM »
Don’t confuse braindead modern pop Orthodox apologetics with Orthodoxy.

+1

A lot of it is marketing, not evangelisation.
+2
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 12:41:53 PM »
Quote
For example, scholasticism is based on the idea that the philosopher-theologians in medieval universities were better equipped to elaborate the faith than were the apostles. Not only does this supposition explain the difference between St. John's Exact Exposition and later scholastic writings, which you specifically referenced, but it provides an overall framework for evaluating the differences between the two.

I don't know how you could possibly prove that. Might as well say that St. Justin Martyr or Pseudo-Dionysius thought themselves better expositors than the Apostles.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:47:32 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 12:44:04 PM »
annoyed with what random people randomly say on the internet....

shocking....
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 01:27:02 PM »
Quote
For example, scholasticism is based on the idea that the philosopher-theologians in medieval universities were better equipped to elaborate the faith than were the apostles. Not only does this supposition explain the difference between St. John's Exact Exposition and later scholastic writings, which you specifically referenced, but it provides an overall framework for evaluating the differences between the two.

I don't know how you could possibly prove that. Might as well say that St. Justin Martyr or Pseudo-Dionysius thought themselves better expositors than the Apostles.

For clarity, the point I was trying to make is that St. John of Damascus was attempting to summarize the teachings of the Fathers; whereas, the later Scholastics were attempting to synthesize philosophical thought and Christian doctrine. The former is exposition, while the latter necessarily involves augmentation. The distinction is not a firm one, which is why I suggested it as a framework for comparison. In applying that framework, it is somewhat easier, perhaps based solely on chronology, to see St. Justin Martyr and other early writers as attempting to explain Christian doctrine using an existing philosophical framework. In other words, the use of philosophy categorizes the doctrine while not creating it. The later scholastics seem to work in the opposite direction. But it's a fine distinction.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 01:30:49 PM by ErmyCath »
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 01:43:28 PM »
Don’t confuse braindead modern pop Orthodox apologetics with Orthodoxy.

+1

A lot of it is marketing, not evangelisation.
+2

-.5 

No lost points for the statement itself, but that doesn't negate clear and annoyance-worthy (or at least understandable) inconsistencies. I don't think this applies to Orthodoxy alone, but I also don't believe the OP's perspective is that easily dismissed. 
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2017, 02:01:22 PM »
his entire first list was not jurisdictional websites....so my point stands.....

Noted and point deemed standworthy, particularly given the chronology of the posts.

That said, the problem he identified is subsequently found in less random sources, so his point still gets to kind of stand too. So confusing, but never fear: I'm tallying it all in a really organized ledger.
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2017, 02:11:53 PM »
...but I also don't believe the OP's perspective is that easily dismissed.

I don't think I'm dismissing it.  Frankly, there is a lot there and I don't know how to even try to address it all in one post, it probably requires several posts, if not threads. 

If I had to dismiss the OP's perspective, it wouldn't be on the basis of the material itself, but on the approach.

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2017, 02:29:26 PM »
There have been some straw man arguments and exaggerations thrown back and forth, usually it is the little detail that matters, let me give you an example:

Quote
So, are we going to say that Saint Seraphim Sarov (on the Rosary)
It is not wrong to pray the rosary, it is wrong to pray it the roman catholic way, with imagining things

Quote
Saint John Chrysostom and Eusebius (on Statues)
There is canonical art and non-canonical art, even canonical icons and non canonical icons.


Quote
and Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite (on the Categories of Sin) are all in error when they wrote / practiced these things?
This has to do with roman catholicism's overly rationalistic way of looking at things as if its all mathematics. That doesn't mean you can't generalize sins and put them into categories.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 02:30:53 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2017, 03:24:01 PM »

Focus on the core of the Faith, not the outer garments.

You will find "differences" between two parishes located on the same street...and yet, they are both fully Orthdodox.

The Canons were written to preserve the Church and safeguard her from threats which were present at that time in the history of the world.  We were told not to frequent Jewish physicians, because at the time, when Christianity was still in its infancy, and Christians were persecuted...a Jew would have most likely tried to get the Christian to reject Christ.  While that can still happen...it is less likely in today's society.

Same with statues.  There existed "statues" (engraved/embossed) per God's direction on the Ark of the Covenant, however, they are used as decoration or embellishment and not to be worshiped or prayed to.  Having an angel embossed on an ikonostas is different than bowing to a statue of Krishna.

What I am trying to say is that over the years "styles" have come and gone.  The Baroque style church sited above, reflects the style of the day, and Western influence of the time.  Was it canonically correct?  No.  Did it lead to idol worship?  No. 

You have to remember, that historically, many churches were built by the faithful, who perhaps didn't even know the canon law...but, built what they thought was beautiful for God.  They did not have all the books we have, no Internet on which to research and discuss things....they did the best they could.

Even today...no two parishes will be identical.  Not in "look", not in "practice". 

But, this is all surface stuff....the teachings all remain the same.

Whether there are pews, women with covered heads, embroideries on icons, embossed gilded angels, etc....the Sacraments are to be found there....and Christ is there. 

Don't let the shiny stuff distract you.

Great post, Liza! I totally agree!
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2017, 03:49:16 PM »
The messiness of history  — and the reality of practice on the ground — are part of why True Church™ polemics don't hold a whole lot of water with me anymore, but True Eucharist polemics do.
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2017, 03:54:48 PM »
Indulgences, for example, don't really make a lot of sense in Orthodox theology as far as I can tell since there's no temporal purgatory to buy your way out of.

Then why again have I eaten so much crappy koliva through the years?

Even if it's not a pit of fire where our impurities burned away as defined by the Latinate fever dreamers of the Middle Ages, praying for the dead doesn't really make sense without an intermediate state between now and the final judgement.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2017, 03:56:18 PM »
Koliva gets you out of purgatory?

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2017, 03:59:53 PM »
praying for the dead doesn't really make sense without an intermediate state between now and the final judgement.

Maybe we should stop calling them "the dead" since they aren't dead.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 04:00:01 PM by RobS »
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2017, 04:00:13 PM »
Koliva gets you out of purgatory?

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
A bad spoonful is a foretaste.

No, I'm just saying that Orthodox theology doesn't necessarily rule out purgatory.

Koliva is connected to our liturgical rites for praying for the dead. Why are we praying for them if they've already fully realized salvation?
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2017, 04:00:42 PM »
What? Koliva gets you out of purgatory?  I think I am officially burned out.

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2017, 04:02:30 PM »
What? Koliva gets you out of purgatory?  I think I am officially burned out.

Gosh, I don't know if I need to spit the grits out of my mouth or if this is just a bad day for everybody.

The problem, to paraphrase Chesterton, is undoubtedly me.

I only mention koliva because we, too, have memorial services. Eating the wheat in and of itself does nothing. But I assume the praying that I did before eating the wheat means something.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 04:03:40 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2017, 04:04:26 PM »
From the Confession of Dositheus:

Quote
And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2017, 04:04:53 PM »
What? Koliva gets you out of purgatory?  I think I am officially burned out.

Gosh, I don't know if I need to spit the grits out of my mouth or if this is just a bad day for everybody.

The problem, to paraphrase Chesterton, is undoubtedly me.

I only mention koliva because we, too, have memorial services. Eating the wheat in and of itself does nothing. But I assume the praying that I did before eating the wheat means something.

Don't worry I might have misunderstood you,  btw beautiful Chesterton quote.

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2017, 04:06:46 PM »
From the Confession of Dositheus:

Quote
And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.

Many thanks.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2017, 04:06:57 PM »
not sure where in this mess of links or quotes was anything saying the departed somehow go right to the final judgement......just because Orthodoxy doesn't truly define the nature of -where- and -how- .....doesn't make it some instant zoom to heaven either....


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Re: Annoyed with Inconsistency of Orthodoxy?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2017, 04:09:34 PM »
not sure where in this mess of links or quotes was anything saying the departed somehow go right to the final judgement......just because Orthodoxy doesn't truly define the nature of -where- and -how- .....doesn't make it some instant zoom to heaven either....

That the truth nothing is guaranteed, we find out at the Judgement, until then we must continue on the right path.