Author Topic: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church  (Read 731 times)

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Offline orthoreader

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http://www.mia.mk/en/Inside/RenderSingleNews/382/133974004

My apologies. I could not past piece from post.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 08:11:24 AM »
That’s an interesting development.  Awkward for Bulgaria however given their relationship with the Serbian church.   If Macedonia became an autonomous church under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Bulgaria, however, that would be beneficial for the Macedonian laity, but it would certainly lead to a rupture in communion between Bulgaria and Serbia similiar to the current rupture between Antioch and Jerusalem.  Although I would worry if local churches in communion with the EO as a whole, but not in communion with specific other nearby local churches, became the norm...it would make the communion seem a bit like a tattered cloth; intact but weakened and at risk of shredding apart.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 08:16:00 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding it, or there's some kind of translation issue, they aren't asking to be under anyone (autonomy), but rather to be recognized as a separate autocephalous church.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 08:16:49 AM by Asteriktos »

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 09:39:52 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding it, or there's some kind of translation issue, they aren't asking to be under anyone (autonomy), but rather to be recognized as a separate autocephalous church.

Yeah, exactly: they want to be autocephalus, and they want that in this process their Mother Church is the Bulgarian Church (no Serbian, no Greek, no Constantinople).
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 09:48:31 AM »
Could we just all agree that that we don't need a single new autocephalous national church anymore. It just creates more problems.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 10:06:00 AM »
The news also appeared in the Bulgarian press:
https://www.bnt.bg/bg/a/priznava-li-makedonskata-arkhiepiskopiya-blgarskata-patriarshiya-za-tsrkva-mayka

And has been added to the Wikipedia article too:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Orthodox_Church_%E2%80%93_Ohrid_Archbishopric

Quote
Relations with the Bulgarian Orthodox Church[edit]

On November 18, 2017 the Bulgarian National Television announced a letter calling it a "historic document". The Macedonian Church sent it on November 9, to the Holy Synod of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. It asks to discuss the issue on the recognition of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and includes a proposal the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to become Macedonia's Mother Church. The letter has been signed by the Macedonian Archbishop Stefan. Bulgarian National Television has supposed, if the Bulgarian Orthodox Church agrees to this proposal, it would face the resistance from the Serbian and Russian Orthodox Churches, as well that from the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Among other things, in the letter is claimed: "The Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Bulgarian Patriarchate, taking into account the unity of the Orthodox Church and the real spiritual and pastoral needs, should establish eucharistic unity with the restored Ohrid Archbishopric in the face of the Macedonian Orthodox Church".[18]
 
Why would they suddenly believe that the BOC would be supporting this proposal?  I can't see it.

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 11:29:26 AM »
That’s an interesting development.  Awkward for Bulgaria however given their relationship with the Serbian church.   If Macedonia became an autonomous church under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Bulgaria, however, that would be beneficial for the Macedonian laity, but it would certainly lead to a rupture in communion between Bulgaria and Serbia similiar to the current rupture between Antioch and Jerusalem. 

They can always blame it on Crete.

Quote
Although I would worry if local churches in communion with the EO as a whole, but not in communion with specific other nearby local churches, became the norm...it would make the communion seem a bit like a tattered cloth; intact but weakened and at risk of shredding apart.

That's the norm right now.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 04:01:28 AM »
The news also appeared in the Bulgarian press:
https://www.bnt.bg/bg/a/priznava-li-makedonskata-arkhiepiskopiya-blgarskata-patriarshiya-za-tsrkva-mayka

And has been added to the Wikipedia article too:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Orthodox_Church_%E2%80%93_Ohrid_Archbishopric

Quote
Relations with the Bulgarian Orthodox Church[edit]

On November 18, 2017 the Bulgarian National Television announced a letter calling it a "historic document". The Macedonian Church sent it on November 9, to the Holy Synod of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. It asks to discuss the issue on the recognition of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and includes a proposal the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to become Macedonia's Mother Church. The letter has been signed by the Macedonian Archbishop Stefan. Bulgarian National Television has supposed, if the Bulgarian Orthodox Church agrees to this proposal, it would face the resistance from the Serbian and Russian Orthodox Churches, as well that from the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Among other things, in the letter is claimed: "The Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Bulgarian Patriarchate, taking into account the unity of the Orthodox Church and the real spiritual and pastoral needs, should establish eucharistic unity with the restored Ohrid Archbishopric in the face of the Macedonian Orthodox Church".[18]
 
Why would they suddenly believe that the BOC would be supporting this proposal?  I can't see it.
Boc can however forward it to a pan orthodox synod, where it will be decided.  If mp, ep and the serbians reject boc as mother church to moc, an alternitive decision could be ep as mother church.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 04:02:30 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 12:24:35 PM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding it, or there's some kind of translation issue, they aren't asking to be under anyone (autonomy), but rather to be recognized as a separate autocephalous church.

Yeah, exactly: they want to be autocephalus, and they want that in this process their Mother Church is the Bulgarian Church (no Serbian, no Greek, no Constantinople).

What would that actually mean? The BOC draws up a tomos of autocephaly for them, and then leaves them alone?

And do they really expect to go straight from being recognized by no one to being autocephalous? Or is that like when I'm haggling with someone at the market and he says $20 and I say $5 and we eventually agree to $12?
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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 12:59:58 PM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding it, or there's some kind of translation issue, they aren't asking to be under anyone (autonomy), but rather to be recognized as a separate autocephalous church.

Yeah, exactly: they want to be autocephalus, and they want that in this process their Mother Church is the Bulgarian Church (no Serbian, no Greek, no Constantinople).

What would that actually mean? The BOC draws up a tomos of autocephaly for them, and then leaves them alone?
Not exactly alone; e.g in case of internal conflicts a Church can ask for help the Mother Church; in the case it does not "produce" its own myron (chrism) during the Holy Week, it asks for it the Mother Church; usually the structure (e.g metropoltians vrsus archbishops) is taken from the Mother Church.

And do they really expect to go straight from being recognized by no one to being autocephalous?

It's been case of e.g (nomen omen) Bulgarian Church. It took also some years for the Romanian Church to be recognised as autocephalus. And so on.
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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 10:23:32 PM »
Could we just all agree that that we don't need a single new autocephalous national church anymore. It just creates more problems.

Pretty sure a lot of these are impelled by governments. Not an observation relevant to e.g. the U.S., but very relevant in some politically-volatile areas.
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Offline nikolaj

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2017, 04:49:49 AM »
For anyone who needs some basic info about the Macedonian schism, there is a very good documentary made by Daniel Sysoev.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4icrY35J8qk

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 01:33:35 PM »
For anyone who needs some basic info about the Macedonian schism, there is a very good documentary made by Daniel Sysoev.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4icrY35J8qk
It is a good documentary, the non-canonical OA have their crimes but this is only one side of the story and it doesn't mention what the serbian church did to them when they were cut off from their Bulgarian Mother Church one century earlier.

Also how can church established in 1219 be a mother Church to a church established in 1019 ? It is very odd don't you think ?

This is a serious wound that needs to be healed in the spirit of brotherhood, mercy and charity. if we are going to point fingers at one another the devil will most certainly be very pleased.

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2017, 01:51:29 PM »
That’s an interesting development.  Awkward for Bulgaria however given their relationship with the Serbian church.   If Macedonia became an autonomous church under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Bulgaria, however, that would be beneficial for the Macedonian laity, but it would certainly lead to a rupture in communion between Bulgaria and Serbia similiar to the current rupture between Antioch and Jerusalem. 

They can always blame it on Crete.

Quote
Although I would worry if local churches in communion with the EO as a whole, but not in communion with specific other nearby local churches, became the norm...it would make the communion seem a bit like a tattered cloth; intact but weakened and at risk of shredding apart.

That's the norm right now.

There is a tragic sort of black comedy truth in what you are saying.  I am in a state of cognitive dissonance trapped between the impulse to  ;D and the impulse to  :'(  .

So I suppose I should do neither and instead simply pray.  Prayer is always the emergency exit from nightmares (quite literally, in my experience).
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- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline orthoreader

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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2017, 11:22:52 AM »
And do they really expect to go straight from being recognized by no one to being autocephalous?

It's been case of e.g (nomen omen) Bulgarian Church. It took also some years for the Romanian Church to be recognised as autocephalus. And so on.

What I mean is that, not only is Macedonian autocephaly not recognized, but they are not formally in communion with anyone. For instance, the OCA's autocephaly is not recognized by the EP but they are definitely in communion.
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Re: Macedonian Orthodox Church Asks Bulgarian to be her Mother Church
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2017, 02:13:53 PM »
And do they really expect to go straight from being recognized by no one to being autocephalous?

It's been case of e.g (nomen omen) Bulgarian Church. It took also some years for the Romanian Church to be recognised as autocephalus. And so on.

What I mean is that, not only is Macedonian autocephaly not recognized, but they are not formally in communion with anyone. For instance, the OCA's autocephaly is not recognized by the EP but they are definitely in communion.

The Bulgarian Patriarchate even has created a comission for the negotations with the Macedonian Church and other local Churches about the Macedonian status, certain metropolitas are called to be members of the comission (you can read about it there: https://dveri.bg/ua9uy)
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