Author Topic: Why I don't believe in God anymore.  (Read 4016 times)

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2017, 09:43:49 PM »
Seems like a pretty demonstrable fact to me. You can't be absolutely sure that Communism is correct and yet you seem to have made it a large part of your identity. Search-replace "scientism" "humanism" "Christianity" "Islam" whatever.
I find it silly anyone can "believe" in communism, but if you lurk commie forums they are just as religious as anyone else. The fixation on capitalism.

I listen to Marxist economists regularly, but I always get the impression they want a revolution that has workers taking over factories. Running a business sucks. I assure you if communism just means running a business democratically include me out. It should be about democratizing wealth.

But yeah, using Marxism as your framework for everything runs into serious problems. Ask Iconodule.
yeah I know communism is the bastard child of Christianity. To call it a religion though is a stretch since it doesn't promise an afterlife.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2017, 09:54:46 PM »
isn't the goal of communism a classless & stateless society? the feasibility of this is not validated by the scientific method/empiricism

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2017, 10:01:23 PM »
yeah I know communism is the bastard child of Christianity. To call it a religion though is a stretch since it doesn't promise an afterlife.
A religion doesn't have to make that promise to be a religion.

The internet commies I know have their own sacred scriptures, cults, devotions to cult of personalities, priggish obligations, a community of faithful adherents to various strands of Marxist "doctrines and dogmas", fear of capitalist gods, regular attendance of "divine services" at the local communist chapter, etc.

It's really difficult not having a religion as hard as some pretend to think they aren't in one.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:03:45 PM by RobS »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2017, 10:02:57 PM »
isn't the goal of communism a classless & stateless society? the feasibility of this is not validated by the scientific method/empiricism
Umm why would it ever need to be validated by "the scientific method". No political science can ever be subject to such a method because there's nothing natural about politics.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2017, 10:04:52 PM »
Seems like a pretty demonstrable fact to me. You can't be absolutely sure that Communism is correct and yet you seem to have made it a large part of your identity. Search-replace "scientism" "humanism" "Christianity" "Islam" whatever.
I find it silly anyone can "believe" in communism, but if you lurk commie forums they are just as religious as anyone else. The fixation on capitalism.

I listen to Marxist economists regularly, but I always get the impression they want a revolution that has workers taking over factories. Running a business sucks. I assure you if communism just means running a business democratically include me out. It should be about democratizing wealth.

But yeah, using Marxism as your framework for everything runs into serious problems. Ask Iconodule.
yeah I know communism is the bastard child of Christianity. To call it a religion though is a stretch since it doesn't promise an afterlife.

What Rob said. I don't call communism a religion per se, just like I don't call atheism a religion. I call it something not intuitively obvious about the world to which people attach religion-like fervor and a certain measure of faith--such that it kind of becomes a game of dirty pool for self-satisfied secularists to criticize religionists for doing the same things.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:06:44 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2017, 10:10:13 PM »
people attach religion-like fervor and a certain measure of faith--such that it kind of becomes a game of dirty pool for self-satisfied secularists to criticize religionists for doing the same things.
Exactly. What alienates me from most Leftists are their self-assured smugness.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2017, 10:14:28 PM »
people attach religion-like fervor and a certain measure of faith--such that it kind of becomes a game of dirty pool for self-satisfied secularists to criticize religionists for doing the same things.
Exactly. What alienates me from most Leftists are their self-assured smugness.

I know what you mean, but you're kind of in the wrong religion if avoiding that is super meaningful to you :-\
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2017, 10:15:05 PM »
people attach religion-like fervor and a certain measure of faith--such that it kind of becomes a game of dirty pool for self-satisfied secularists to criticize religionists for doing the same things.
Exactly. What alienates me from most Leftists are their self-assured smugness.
self assured smugness . You'll find that aplenty I the OC.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2017, 10:20:12 PM »
isn't the goal of communism a classless & stateless society? the feasibility of this is not validated by the scientific method/empiricism
Umm why would it ever need to be validated by "the scientific method". No political science can ever be subject to such a method because there's nothing natural about politics.

of course. I'm just trying to challenge some thought.
 
Let me expand. On what basis can one who believes in the idea of a classless/stateless society, deny the idea of a afterlife?
The only basis I see for denying the idea of a afterlife is appealing to scientific method/empiricism. But one can also appeal to scientific method/empiricism & deny the idea of a classless/stateless society too. If one is consistent  "skeptic", he/she would apply the same standards towards communism, as they do towards Christianity.

 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:22:20 PM by ZackShenouda439 »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2017, 10:24:57 PM »
isn't the goal of communism a classless & stateless society? the feasibility of this is not validated by the scientific method/empiricism
Umm why would it ever need to be validated by "the scientific method". No political science can ever be subject to such a method because there's nothing natural about politics.

of course. I'm just trying to challenge some thought.
 
Let me expand. On what basis can one who believes in the idea of a classless/stateless society, deny the idea of a afterlife?
The only basis I see for denying the idea of a afterlife is appealing to scientific method/empiricism. But one can also appeal to scientific method/empiricism & deny the idea of a classless/stateless society too. If one is consistent  "skeptic", he/she would apply the same standards towards communism, as they do towards Christianity.
actually classless societies have existed well into the historical era.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2017, 10:34:00 PM »
Classless societies?Well, certainly not in the context of complex societies & complex governments. and if such a form exists in the "primitive" or "historic" sense, then it's clearly a exception, not a rule.

"Throughout most of its history, mankind, insofar as it was subject to any government control at all, was under monarchical rule. There were exceptions: Athenian democracy, Rome during its republican era until 31 B.C., the republics of Venice, Florence, and Genoa during the Renaissance period, the Swiss cantons since 1291, the United Provinces from 1648 until 1673, and England under Cromwell from 1649 until 1660. Yet these were rare occurrences in a world dominated by monarchies. With the exception of Switzerland, they were short-lived phenomena."

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:35:20 PM by ZackShenouda439 »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2017, 11:30:26 PM »
On the subject of defining religion, Fr. John Behr once challenged a group of us in our Coptic parish how much we spend time praying per week versus how much we spend time working out, shopping, watching our favorite programs.  At that point, we can gauge where our true worship lies.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2017, 12:02:23 AM »
people attach religion-like fervor and a certain measure of faith--such that it kind of becomes a game of dirty pool for self-satisfied secularists to criticize religionists for doing the same things.
Exactly. What alienates me from most Leftists are their self-assured smugness.

I know what you mean, but you're kind of in the wrong religion if avoiding that is super meaningful to you :-\

Hey hey hey! I'm allowed to be a chauvinist on OC.net!
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2017, 12:04:37 AM »
On the subject of defining religion, Fr. John Behr once challenged a group of us in our Coptic parish how much we spend time praying per week versus how much we spend time working out, shopping, watching our favorite programs.  At that point, we can gauge where our true worship lies.
I say we all need to quit our secular jobs if we want to take Fr. John's challenge seriously. We spend too much time working.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2017, 12:37:46 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2017, 12:43:06 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?
get by
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2017, 12:54:42 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?

No, that's moving the goal posts. Fr. Behr, as you said, was contrasting work and prayer full stop. He wasn't making allowances for some kind of hybrid that is both or gets a free pass because it's a godly sort of work or has godly intentions behind it.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2017, 12:59:24 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?

No, that's moving the goal posts. Fr. Behr, as you said, was contrasting work and prayer full stop. He wasn't making allowances for some kind of hybrid that is both or gets a free pass because it's a godly sort of work or has godly intentions behind it.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2017, 01:05:59 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?

No, that's moving the goal posts. Fr. Behr, as you said, was contrasting work and prayer full stop. He wasn't making allowances for some kind of hybrid that is both or gets a free pass because it's a godly sort of work or has godly intentions behind it.

On the subject of defining religion, Fr. John Behr once challenged a group of us in our Coptic parish how much we spend time praying per week versus how much we spend time working out, shopping, watching our favorite programs.  At that point, we can gauge where our true worship lies.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2017, 01:32:19 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point. 

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2017, 01:39:28 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point.
no he makes the point bar someone completely disconnected from harvlabor would make. Very petty bourgeois.
The situation he envisions only applies to the middle  /upper middle class. Doesn't apply to the woman flipping burgers at McDonald's or the delivery guy at Jimmy John's.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Online Asteriktos

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2017, 01:41:46 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point.
no he makes the point bar someone completely disconnected from harvlabor would make. Very petty bourgeois.
The situation he envisions only applies to the middle  /upper middle class. Doesn't apply to the woman flipping burgers at McDonald's or the delivery guy at Jimmy John's.

Why?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2017, 01:57:37 AM »
Well, it’s all about how you direct your work too.  What are you doing this for?

No, that's moving the goal posts. Fr. Behr, as you said, was contrasting work and prayer full stop. He wasn't making allowances for some kind of hybrid that is both or gets a free pass because it's a godly sort of work or has godly intentions behind it.

On the subject of defining religion, Fr. John Behr once challenged a group of us in our Coptic parish how much we spend time praying per week versus how much we spend time working out, shopping, watching our favorite programs.  At that point, we can gauge where our true worship lies.

Alright, my mistake.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2017, 02:01:47 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point.
no he makes the point bar someone completely disconnected from harvlabor would make. Very petty bourgeois.
The situation he envisions only applies to the middle  /upper middle class. Doesn't apply to the woman flipping burgers at McDonald's or the delivery guy at Jimmy John's.

Why?

Because keeping up with prayer is hard at the best times and staggering home after a back breaking day of crappy work is not going to leave you much time or energy for it. I mean, I guess one without a family could try to make their life entirely consist of prayer, sleep, work, repeat, but that sounds a bit unreasonably monastic for a lay person, doesn't it (as well as possibly butting up against Matthew 23:4)?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2017, 02:13:13 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point.
no he makes the point bar someone completely disconnected from harvlabor would make. Very petty bourgeois.
The situation he envisions only applies to the middle  /upper middle class. Doesn't apply to the woman flipping burgers at McDonald's or the delivery guy at Jimmy John's.

Fr. John Behr made the dichotomy between spending time prayer vs spending time working-out,  shopping, watching our favorite programs

he didn't include work-related labor time into this. and the working class, say those  working fast food  40+ hours a week, I'd argue they wouldn't have as much time to work-out, shop, etc anyway, even if they wanted to.

Online Asteriktos

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2017, 02:21:02 AM »
First I don't buy that flipping burgers or being a machine operator is harder on your body than being a lawyer or business owner. But second and more to the point, how is prayer so physically taxing that a person just can't manage it, and instead have to spend time with (less strenuous?) activities like working out, shopping, watching tv, etc? I doubt many could indeed live up to the line set by Fr. John, but that's sort of the point isn't it?  Praying as much as you do leisure activities is maybe a tough goal, but it seems like a kind of an intermediate goal when the final destination is "be ye perfect"...?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 02:21:50 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2017, 02:38:47 AM »
in my experience working  part-time 30 hours per-week fastfood  as a cook was indeed much more physically exhausting than say >40 hours per-week clinical work, but I agree with your central/main point, I also don't see how prayer is that physically taxing.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2017, 02:55:23 AM »
First I don't buy that flipping burgers or being a machine operator is harder on your body than being a lawyer or business owner.

I guess it depends on how often the latter jobs let you sit down. Have you ever been on your feet all day? Maybe having been out of shape all my life gives me a skewed perspective though, I admit.

But second and more to the point, how is prayer so physically taxing that a person just can't manage it, and instead have to spend time with (less strenuous?) activities like working out, shopping, watching tv, etc? I doubt many could indeed live up to the line set by Fr. John, but that's sort of the point isn't it?  Praying as much as you do leisure activities is maybe a tough goal, but it seems like a kind of an intermediate goal when the final destination is "be ye perfect"...?

First of all, Metaniyas. Canons. Repetitions.

Second, sure. Nobody needs relaxation, strictly speaking. But forcing nonmonastics to go completely without it on top of already heavy burdens sounds kind of Pharisaic to me.

But then again, yes, you're right. Technically any rigor can be justified with be ye perfect.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2017, 03:06:22 AM »
there is also other tasks that are quite physically demanding. like cleaning grease off a deep fryer & replacing the oil. this is very hard-work in my experience.  I'd rather do 60 hours of clinical work than 3 hours of that. I say this without exaggeration.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2017, 08:11:06 AM »
Monastic practice have showed us that work can be a form of worship.  We are asked to pray “unceasingly”, not on our recess.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2017, 08:17:57 AM »
Second, sure. Nobody needs relaxation, strictly speaking.

Dude. God Himself took a day off after six working on Creation, and over the first five all He did was give orders.

If people incorporated prayer into the indispensable tasks of daily life, like brushing their teeth, it would get overlooked less often. Sure, there will always be people who don't brush, but that would be a choice. And don't quote me, I'm still working on it.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2017, 09:57:11 AM »
Fr. John Behr makes a good point.
no he makes the point bar someone completely disconnected from harvlabor would make. Very petty bourgeois.
The situation he envisions only applies to the middle  /upper middle class. Doesn't apply to the woman flipping burgers at McDonald's or the delivery guy at Jimmy John's.
What they do have plenty of time and energy for, however, is the local Party and labor union meetings. Very petty bourgeois to think otherwise.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2017, 11:19:53 AM »
I was reading Pope Ratzinger s Jesus of Nazareth. He glosses over the Nativity story as I suspect it is clear to him that's just pious legend , impossible to frame as history by current standards. He starts off  to more plausible things like John the Baptist and the Jesus ' baptism.
So if the gospels are mostly  ahistorical midrashes  they are  still beautiful as stories  but how is faith
still possible? Or what does faith mean, anymore ?

I find atheism a hopeless and depressing belief.  I don’t know if you have read any of CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia but this speech pretty much sums it up.  For context the group is confronting a witch who by means of her magical persuasion has convinced them all there is is her underworld kingdom, no sun, no trees, and no God.

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2017, 12:56:54 PM »
I was reading Pope Ratzinger s Jesus of Nazareth. He glosses over the Nativity story as I suspect it is clear to him that's just pious legend , impossible to frame as history by current standards. He starts off  to more plausible things like John the Baptist and the Jesus ' baptism.
So if the gospels are mostly  ahistorical midrashes  they are  still beautiful as stories  but how is faith
still possible? Or what does faith mean, anymore ?

I find atheism a hopeless and depressing belief.  I don’t know if you have read any of CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia but this speech pretty much sums it up.  For context the group is confronting a witch who by means of her magical persuasion has convinced them all there is is her underworld kingdom, no sun, no trees, and no God.

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."
I'm sympathetic to that for sure yet, just as with Santa once you find out you can't really go back pretending you believed.  Score I gave a thought to these matters I just took God and the attendant mythology for granted.  It all seemed so reasonable and intuitive.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
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Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2017, 02:15:34 PM »
I find atheism a hopeless and depressing belief.  I don’t know if you have read any of CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia but this speech pretty much sums it up.  For context the group is confronting a witch who by means of her magical persuasion has convinced them all there is is her underworld kingdom, no sun, no trees, and no God.

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

Not dissimilar to Dostoevsky's oft quoted “If someone proved to me that Christ is outside the truth and that in reality the truth were outside of Christ, then I should prefer to remain with Christ rather than with the truth.”
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Offline RobS

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2017, 03:51:46 PM »
I was reading Pope Ratzinger s Jesus of Nazareth. He glosses over the Nativity story as I suspect it is clear to him that's just pious legend , impossible to frame as history by current standards. He starts off  to more plausible things like John the Baptist and the Jesus ' baptism.
So if the gospels are mostly  ahistorical midrashes  they are  still beautiful as stories  but how is faith
still possible? Or what does faith mean, anymore ?

I find atheism a hopeless and depressing belief.  I don’t know if you have read any of CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia but this speech pretty much sums it up.  For context the group is confronting a witch who by means of her magical persuasion has convinced them all there is is her underworld kingdom, no sun, no trees, and no God.

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."
+100 Wow that's gotta be one of my favorite quotes. Thanks for sharing that.

I'm sympathetic to that for sure yet, just as with Santa once you find out you can't really go back pretending you believed.  Score I gave a thought to these matters I just took God and the attendant mythology for granted.  It all seemed so reasonable and intuitive.

You've misunderstood the Narnia quote. Even if it was proved that all that one held to be true was made up, it would still be preferable to hold on to make-believe because it is a much better way to live than embracing its opposite.

Like the Dostoevsky quote, even if you had the most persuasive, knock-em-down evidence and arguments against Christianity I would still stick with Christ because I know what life is being his disciple. I know what true freedom, true meaning, true hope, true joy, etc is like when I try to live like Christ. There ain't a philosophy or other religious system that can hold a candle to the gifts Christ can give.

You might say "Ah but Rob that is so irrational! You are a fool!" But I would have to turn and ask you, what could you offer me that is a better way to live? Even if you exposed all the falsehoods, what am I left with?

If you are genuinely honest, that if you destroyed such cherished beliefs and offered nothing in exchange, what would life be but nothing except despair? Your entire existence would be a vanity. If you think otherwise you are only kidding yourself.

That's the problem with atheists, Zizek is exactly right. They want to get rid of God, the divine and supernatural and somehow still be left with the world. But you end up losing both God and the world, what are you left with then?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2017, 04:18:25 PM »
I'm not a dogmatic atheist. I understand and am sympathetic to religious belief.  If I need to, I'll go through some of the motions.
But honestly I don't think I could ever recapture "faith" . That's pre-rational. Once you start examining it it vanishes.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2017, 05:31:59 AM »
But you said that God became a nonissue for you once you lost trust in the NT. That to me doesn't sound like you've really examined faith all that much.

Personally, I just don't think there are any solid arguments against belief in a God (the problem of evil comes close, sure, but it's still pretty ambiguous). Whereas the historical near-universality of theism is at least a weak argument in favor of it.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2017, 07:38:52 AM »
I was reading Pope Ratzinger s Jesus of Nazareth. He glosses over the Nativity story as I suspect it is clear to him that's just pious legend , impossible to frame as history by current standards. He starts off  to more plausible things like John the Baptist and the Jesus ' baptism.
So if the gospels are mostly  ahistorical midrashes  they are  still beautiful as stories  but how is faith
still possible? Or what does faith mean, anymore ?

I find atheism a hopeless and depressing belief.  I don’t know if you have read any of CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia but this speech pretty much sums it up.  For context the group is confronting a witch who by means of her magical persuasion has convinced them all there is is her underworld kingdom, no sun, no trees, and no God.

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

Nice CS Lewis pwnage, Father Deacon.  A friend of mine who is an elderly retired Coptic deacon living at St. Anthony’s (Coptic Monastery in Yermo); who is not a hierodeacon, likes to give people who are mistakenly about to kiss his hand (an honor he considers reserved for the monks and hieromonks), especially the young children, a high-five, and if we were physically together and such a gesture would not be situationally indecorous, I think I should offer you a high-five about now!  ;)

I love the apologetics of CS Lewis.  I haven’t really read his Narnia books properly; I prefer his Space Trilogy with the beautiful depictions of Malacandra (Mars), Perelandra (Venus), and the terrifying, literally diabolical National Institute of Coordinated Experiences from That Hideous Strength; these books all had substantial apologetical content, although nothing as forceful ad the quote you just produced from the Narnia series (what book was that)?

The quote you provided also interested me in that it reflected on my own personal faith struggle, which all Christians have, one which at the moment, I have the upper hand in, in part after compiling a very handy list of every episode in my life which could be considered miraculous or beyond fortunate coincidence, experiences which not everyone has been blessed with which have the effect of, to me at least, offering compelling positive evidence for the existence of a deity who answers to the name of Jesus Christ.

However, it occurred to me after completing this index that, even if the results of it apparently proved the opposite, that even if I had positive evidence against the existence of God, which no atheist has, by the way (in contrast to the surprisingly large number of ascetics and pious Christians who have direct experiential knowledge of God, who tend to be written off by atheists as delusional), I would still choose to believe in Christ and be a member of the Church, because the beauty of the Christian faith and the ideals expressed therein, liturgically, sacramentally and ethically, are sublime, and if anyone is worth believing in even in the face of any conceivable hard evidence atheists would present against His existence, if they could, which they of course cannot, it would be our Lord.  The person of Jesus Christ is more real than those known to us conventionally, to the point that I know of several Christians including myself who have been blessed to instantly recognize our Lord in various contexts ranging from dreams to waking experiences.  The same is also largely true of the most blessed Theotokos.

In other words, if Christianity is wrong, I refuse to be right (but all my life experiences say that it is real, and I have yet to encounter any atheist with actual positive evidence to support their beliefs).
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2017, 07:39:21 AM »
I'm not a dogmatic atheist. I understand and am sympathetic to religious belief.  If I need to, I'll go through some of the motions.
But honestly I don't think I could ever recapture "faith" . That's pre-rational. Once you start examining it it vanishes.

This has not been my experience.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2017, 09:48:07 AM »
Alpha60,

That quote comes from the Silver Chair.  I highly recommend the entire series.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 09:48:40 AM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2017, 11:43:11 AM »
I loved Narnia when I was a kid but I find the allegorism pretty grating as an adult. I definitely think Tolkien was right about allegorical fantasy being a drag.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 11:43:27 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2017, 01:41:21 PM »
I loved Narnia when I was a kid but I find the allegorism pretty grating as an adult. I definitely think Tolkien was right about allegorical fantasy being a drag.
I still love them.  I think you just have to remember that they were written for a target age of 7-10. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2017, 02:05:05 PM »
I would expect from an all-knowing, powerful, and just God to do much better than the Bible or the Quran, to bring laws and moral codes that humans could never imagine, laws and morals that would not allow for hundreds of interpretations.

So since you cannot have this fantasy, then you are done with God altogether. Yet all your problems remain. Specifically, there remains a history of mankind and its destructive deeds. Further, there remain many interpretations of history and of the present (and, yes, such deeds persist in the present; progressivism demurs, but the daily news confutes it). You are convinced of your own interpretation, your own morals, but you have nothing but yourself to back them; for, altho I am sure you have likeminded friends, you have no control over whether they continue to agree with you. And were you to attempt to assert such control, you'd find yourself appealing to something bigger than yourself; and were to you to attempt to assert such control in any large way, you'd find yourself faced with a need for destructive deeds in some measure. You have got rid of God, but you have not got rid of mankind in which everything to which you object factually inheres. In your mystic rage at God, you have still the problem and the problem is man which is yourself.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Why I don't believe in God anymore.
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2017, 02:12:50 PM »
I would expect from an all-knowing, powerful, and just God to do much better than the Bible or the Quran, to bring laws and moral codes that humans could never imagine, laws and morals that would not allow for hundreds of interpretations.

So since you cannot have this fantasy, then you are done with God altogether. Yet all your problems remain. Specifically, there remains a history of mankind and its destructive deeds. Further, there remain many interpretations of history and of the present (and, yes, such deeds persist in the present; progressivism demurs, but the daily news confutes it). You are convinced of your own interpretation, your own morals, but you have nothing but yourself to back them; for, altho I am sure you have likeminded friends, you have no control over whether they continue to agree with you. And were you to attempt to assert such control, you'd find yourself appealing to something bigger than yourself; and were to you to attempt to assert such control in any large way, you'd find yourself faced with a need for destructive deeds in some measure. You have got rid of God, but you have not got rid of mankind in which everything to which you object factually inheres. In your mystic rage at God, you have still the problem and the problem is man which is yourself.

Well said.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"