Author Topic: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"  (Read 1172 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« on: November 11, 2017, 02:43:37 PM »
https://youtu.be/UdVaeq6mr-o

Speaker: Br Nicodemus Mary (Transalpine Redemptorists).
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpo

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2017, 05:08:36 PM »
What is with the habit? I thought Transalpine Redemptorists were traditionalist Latins.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2017, 07:08:20 PM »
Did I hear Br. Nicodemus correctly, that the conversion of Russia called for in the apparitions at Fatima is understood as the reunion of the Russian Orthodox Church with Rome?  How widespread is this so among Eastern Catholics?
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2017, 08:49:47 PM »
What is with the habit? I thought Transalpine Redemptorists were traditionalist Latins.
If you look them up, you can see him with the other brothers wearing their traditional habit. It seems he chose this of his own volition for this event for... his own particular reasons. Let the reader understand.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 08:50:11 PM by Antonis »
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2017, 09:06:36 PM »
What is with the habit? I thought Transalpine Redemptorists were traditionalist Latins.
If you look them up, you can see him with the other brothers wearing their traditional habit. It seems he chose this of his own volition for this event for... his own particular reasons. Let the reader understand.

It's like the time Hillary Clinton adopted the goth look to appeal to millenials.

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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2017, 09:11:43 PM »
What is with the habit? I thought Transalpine Redemptorists were traditionalist Latins.
If you look them up, you can see him with the other brothers wearing their traditional habit. It seems he chose this of his own volition for this event for... his own particular reasons. Let the reader understand.

It's like the time Hillary Clinton adopted the goth look to appeal to millenials.



Ah yes who could forget.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2017, 09:48:09 PM »
I have to say, I was more than a little disappointed he didn't lift his klobuk every time he said Mary's name.
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2017, 10:02:42 PM »
I have to say, I was more than a little disappointed he didn't lift his klobuk every time he said Mary's name.

LOL.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Peter J

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 04:00:05 PM »
Quote
"Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"

I haven't watched this talk, but not much surprises me when it comes to polemics (on any side).
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 09:06:41 PM »
This Redemptorist dressing up like an Eastern monk surprised me. Based on that, I’m not really willing to listen to anything he has to say.
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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 08:38:07 PM »
Do you know when this is from?  When they were affiliated with the SSPX they were biritual (or attempting to be) but I am pretty sure since reconciliation they had given that up.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 01:10:13 AM »
This seems to be affiliated with the John Venari (who is deceased) run "Fatima Center," and during one of my digressions back into Roman Catholicism, I actually attended one of their events. They travel across the country giving talks; This "Fatima Center" is largely the work of people affiliated with Father Gruner, who was of the opinion that the Third Secret is still hidden and not revealed, and the "Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart" hadn't happened yet.

During these events, they give away plastic rosaries, scapulars, and a bunch of paper handouts / books for free -the typical stuf, the Third Secret of Fatima, home consecrations to the two hearts, stations of the cross, fantasy novels about Russia being converted and restored to a Byzantine Catholic Tsardom (Russian Sunrise), the Baltimore Catechism, how EWTN has become corrupt, Father Gruner's books, etc. - and then they'll have some speakers; on one side, some really traditional priests talking about Roman Catholic doctrine (and some were really good - one priest gave a sermon on our use of time, and it was one of the most unique sermons I've ever heard) - and on the other side, some talking about how evil the sect of Freemasonry is, talking about conspiracy theories and the communist / Illuminati / Freemason / Satanic infiltration of the Roman Catholic Church, and how the Three Days of Darkness are coming.

Although not officially connected to the SSPX, they are heavily affiliated with the SSPX and have on multiple occasions had SSPX speakers and have stated that the SSPX is fully canonical in the Roman Catholic Church (John Venari even let Dr. Gregory Hesse - a former canon lawyer who gave lectures about how Vatican II was invalid - speak at his events). Nonetheless, on their publications they quote Mother Teresa and recognize her as a saint.....so.....

In the actual video, the Redemptorist is only dressing up in the Russian habit as a symbolic gesture.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 01:20:13 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 07:12:19 PM »
It’s hard to listen to Fr. Hesse and not agree that he makes a very strong argument against VII from a Roman Catholic perspective.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 07:29:10 PM by Antonis »
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2017, 10:14:51 PM »
It’s hard to listen to Fr. Hesse and not agree that he makes a very strong argument against VII from a Roman Catholic perspective.

It depends on the argument he makes; when you do a lot of research into Roman Catholic theology and history, you realize a lot of his arguments are bogus.

Some arguments - for example, his entire argument against the "hierarchy of truths" that Pope John Paul II pointed out by explaining what "anathema" means is pretty well argued.

I also agree with the argument that liturgy is not merely disciplinary (as iconoclasm is a condemned heresy), and I agree with him in his argument that Quo Primum was meant to be infallible.

His anecdotes are pretty funny too.

"Now about the bondage - excuse me, I mean bond of marriage."

"Let me explain the difference between licit and valid. If you have a gun and you really are annoyed at your neighbor, if you decide to shoot him in the head, it's valid but illicit. If you shoot an intruder to defend your family, it is licit and valid. But if you have a pathetic gun that does no damage, for defense, it is licit but not valid."

My personal favorite one he quoted from G.K. Chesteron:
"Feast on wine or fast on water
And your honour shall stand sure,
God Almighty’s son and daughter
He the valiant, she the pure;
If an angel out of heaven
Brings you other things to drink,
Thank him for his kind attentions,
Go and pour them down the sink."

However, some of his arguments are flat out stupid.

For example, claiming the Council of Trent forbids the Pope from making new rites - pfffft - the Council of Trent, from memory, actually has an entire line where it explicitly says only the Pope can make new rites.

Or saying that we should apply the logic of "sacrament" theology to "sacramentals" to justify the invalidity of Vatican II - unless he can prove that the early Christians applied such logic to "sacramentals" (Did Constantine or Justinian have to wear vestments? Does incense have to be of a certain variety? Is a Brown Scapular made of wood invalid or illicit?) or the Pope made a statement at some point, then I think its flawed and unjustifiable. The Council of Trent anathematizes anybody who says there are more than 7 sacraments.

And a lot of times, he displays a profound ignorance in many aspects of knowledge - the Pope Pius IX quote of "Well, you just don't follow him!" he always brings up has no evidence of ever existing, and the quote from "Saint Cyril of Jerusalem" of "Is it Tradition? Ask no more!" was actually from Saint Athanasius.

My favorite is this one: "The Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox schismatics fight amongst themselves as to whether or not there are 4 Ecumenical Councils or 7 Ecumenical Councils."
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:25:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2017, 10:27:22 PM »

His anecdotes are pretty funny too.


I thought of two more:

"Let me give you my opinion about dialogue. Eve dialogued with the Serpent. Just for one dialogue, Christ had to die on the cross."

"Priestly celibacy is awesome - I don't have to deal with a wife!"
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 10:35:54 PM »
If Father Gregory Hesse read Trent carefully, he could clearly see Trent knew what it was talking about in terms of making liturgy dogma.

"If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema."

You can't anathematize someone in an "Ecumenical Council" for merely disciplinary action.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:36:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Online Asteriktos

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 10:54:38 PM »
The council of Chalcedon seems to anathematize for disciplinary lapses...

Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 10:56:06 PM »
Quote
It depends on the argument he makes; when you do a lot of research into Roman Catholic theology and history, you realize a lot of his arguments are bogus.

Some arguments - for example, his entire argument against the "hierarchy of truths" that Pope John Paul II pointed out by explaining what "anathema" means is pretty well argued.

I also agree with the argument that liturgy is not merely disciplinary (as iconoclasm is a condemned heresy), and I agree with him in his argument that Quo Primum was meant to be infallible.
One is enough for the whole thing to topple.
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2017, 11:53:08 PM »
The council of Chalcedon seems to anathematize for disciplinary lapses...

Could you point that out?
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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 02:09:19 AM »
The council of Chalcedon seems to anathematize for disciplinary lapses...

Could you point that out?

For example:

"A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination. And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her." (Canon 15)

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 10:32:25 AM »

For example, claiming the Council of Trent forbids the Pope from making new rites - pfffft - the Council of Trent, from memory, actually has an entire line where it explicitly says only the Pope can make new rites.


Sorry to go slightly off topic here:

LivenotoneviL, considering the discussions in which we've both been participating on another forum, I would suggest you consider this "development" in Catholic doctrine as it may prove helpful to your current interior debate. In particular, does this make sense to you based on what you know about Church history?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 10:32:47 AM by ErmyCath »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 11:20:17 AM »
Oh hey, didn't recognize you! You're the second person on that forum that's also here I've run into. Lol
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:20:41 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 11:38:53 AM »
Also, I'm coming across as the ignorant one I guess, because even though I swear I read that portion in Trent somewhere, I for the life of me can't find it now all of all sudden. I'll keep looking and let you know if I find it.

So cross that out for now.
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 11:42:08 AM »
Session 22, Canon IX.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 11:52:07 AM »
I mean "only the Pope can modify the Rites."

I mean, I don't have a doctorate in Thomistic theology, so I guess I'm the real "sophomore."

Maybe I'm the idiot.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:02:25 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 12:14:39 PM »
I don't think what you're looking for was explicitly stated until later, although Pius V's Quo Primum assumes that the modification of the liturgy is within the province of the pope even if, interestingly, he seems to say that the council has given the pope this responsibility. The definitions of Vatican I assume this to be the case since the pope has immediate power of jurisdiction, including disciplinary matters. The 1917 Code of Canon Law, paragraph 1257, makes it clear that "The Apostolic See alone has the right to prescribe the sacred liturgy and to approve liturgical books." This is reiterated in Pope Pius XII's Mediator Dei, paragraph 58. Unsurprisingly, the same thing is reiterated at Vatican II and thereafter.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:16:31 PM by ErmyCath »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 01:39:59 PM »
Dear Forumers,

This is a great discussion we're having, but, while acknowledging the part I may have had to play in it, we are getting off-track from the OP.

I welcome us returning to the topic if that interests us, or starting another thread revolving around the new discussion.

Thanks,

Antonis
Section Moderator
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 01:40:55 PM by Antonis »
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2017, 02:09:55 PM »
I felt guilty for straying off topic, so in an effort to make up for it, I'm now listening to this video. It is interesting to note that he speaks many times about "submission to the Roman pontiff." So far there is no real concern about any matters of faith: the focus is solely on submission. It has been coming to my mind in the past few weeks just how far this idea of "submission" is from how Christ describes how the apostles should relate to one another. So it is interesting that submission, not uniformity in faith, appears to form the entire basis is this person's ecclesiology.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 02:11:01 PM by ErmyCath »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »
I felt guilty for straying off topic, so in an effort to make up for it, I'm now listening to this video. It is interesting to note that he speaks many times about "submission to the Roman pontiff." So far there is no real concern about any matters of faith: the focus is solely on submission. It has been coming to my mind in the past few weeks just how far this idea of "submission" is from how Christ describes how the apostles should relate to one another. So it is interesting that submission, not uniformity in faith, appears to form the entire basis is this person's ecclesiology.
Yea, it's a hallmark of a new Rome. Submission was always the priority, and this came with theological and liturgical Latinization, but within the past couple centuries it has slowly become submission with theological diversity. It's how you can have people who venerate and anathematize Nestorius under one pontiff, for instance, or accept created grace and Uncreated Grace.

It also came with other challenges. According to Roman theologians, the words of institution are what confect the Eucharist, but when bringing in members of the Eastern Syriac Rite which does not use these words, they had to adjust and say the words were implicit in that rite in order to stay consistent.
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2017, 02:50:36 PM »
Yea, it's a hallmark of a new Rome.

Will you just stop?  Your constant, ungrateful belittling of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is destructive to piety.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Antonis

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2017, 04:32:40 PM »
Yea, it's a hallmark of a new Rome.

Will you just stop?  Your constant, ungrateful belittling of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is destructive to piety.
LOL. I'm impressed.
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2017, 12:10:14 AM »
So it is interesting that submission, not uniformity in faith, appears to form the entire basis is this person's ecclesiology.
He is, after all, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, where the faithful is not sure what kind of mass they'll get in another diocese or in another parish across town or at another time in the same parish, except for the apparent submission to the Roman Pontiff by the display his picture in the narthex.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:11:04 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2017, 01:57:38 AM »
So it is interesting that submission, not uniformity in faith, appears to form the entire basis is this person's ecclesiology.

Without overgeneralizing, I think it's succinct to say that a majority of Catholics - both Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics (especially Byzantine Catholics) - really don't comprehend the doctrinal specifications that have divided the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

The Catholics seem to be taught that the Orthodox are just a Church which is exactly the same, it's just that due to politics the Orthodox won't obey Peter and as such they are "separated brethren," with the exception that they view divorce and contraception as morally acceptable due to modernism.

I remember I visited a very modernistic Roman Catholic Church for a Catholic event (very iconoclastic and charismatic), and when I brought up the fact that I am looking into Orthodoxy, the first response was "Oh, if you like Byzantine liturgy so much, why don't you just join the Byzantine Catholic Church?" And I was asked "The Orthodox believe in 7 Sacraments right?" And with my drawn out answer, "Well, that's pretty close enough to Catholicism."

One more traditional Novus Ordo priest who nonetheless liked Pope Francis and used him incessantly during his sermons - during a period of going back to Catholicism - I talked to him about my search into Orthodoxy in confession, and his response was "Just stick with Peter!"

It's also the only time that I made his eyes open up widely and mouth drop when I told him I wanted to give up meat, dairy, and olive oil for Lent.

If you asked most Catholics what their opinion on Filioque is, they would ask what kind of Italian dish it is. And if you tried explaining the Orthodox distinction between the Essence and Energies of God, most likely they would ask if you have a degree in theology or if you're a priest.

And it's no disrespect to the Catholic laypeople, it's just that methinks the Catholics are very poorly catechized and there has been a lost sense of Catholic community over the years (which is in part of the reason why the SSPX is opening up schools)

I feel with this Roman Catholic speaker, he views the Orthodox Church as just a separate Church which is rigid and separate due to politics that could easily be fixed if they re-entered communion with the Pope.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:09:32 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2017, 10:14:19 AM »
So it is interesting that submission, not uniformity in faith, appears to form the entire basis is this person's ecclesiology.

Without overgeneralizing, I think it's succinct to say that a majority of Catholics - both Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics (especially Byzantine Catholics) - really don't comprehend the doctrinal specifications that have divided the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

The Catholics seem to be taught that the Orthodox are just a Church which is exactly the same, it's just that due to politics the Orthodox won't obey Peter and as such they are "separated brethren," with the exception that they view divorce and contraception as morally acceptable due to modernism.

. . .

And it's no disrespect to the Catholic laypeople, it's just that methinks the Catholics are very poorly catechized and there has been a lost sense of Catholic community over the years (which is in part of the reason why the SSPX is opening up schools)

I feel with this Roman Catholic speaker, he views the Orthodox Church as just a separate Church which is rigid and separate due to politics that could easily be fixed if they re-entered communion with the Pope.

You are correct. I think this may be a strategic thing on Rome's part to simply act as if there are no real differences. The same thing happens in their dialogue with other groups too (I'm thinking of the recent goings on with the Lutherans).
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 09:31:38 PM »
Catholicism sometimes approves and tolerates messages in apparitions; they're not our doctrine. Simply put, Brother Nicodemus Mary is entitled to his opinion.

Promoting Roman Rite devotions isn't one of Catholicism's goals for Byzantine Catholicism (I admit that's a clumsy name but "Greek Catholic" makes people think it's ethnic Greek, which it largely isn't).

My guess is the Eastern Catholics who are interested in the Fátima devotion (not all are) do see it as the Russians coming into Catholicism. My Ukrainian Catholic parish's people aren't defensively anti-Western (nor nationalistic; they're second-generation older Americans) but they don't talk about these devotions (but some of the grandmas have rosaries) and the priest doesn't preach them. I don't dwell on them. They're nice and they're there if you want them.

I'm fine with Russia returning to Orthodoxy (in fact I think Putin's Russia is great; most of my Byzantine things and practices are Russian and I know Russian)... then all of the Orthodox bishops coming into the Catholic Church together (we agree they probably won't) and their rite (partly my rite too) being left alone. Better than the attempts to get individual conversions, such as the Russian Catholic project that Brother Nicodemus Mary referred to, opening Russian Catholic parishes in Russia and the West; they didn't work. (To be fair: the Russian Catholic project started because some Russians approached us. Because of the true-church claim, if a born Orthodox asks to come in, we bring him in, quietly.) The one in Greece flopped too. Maybe a sign from God that it wasn't the right way. I'm not trying to break up your communities.

Being Catholic doesn't mean you have to believe that the Byzantine Catholics are perfect for being Catholic so the Orthodox have to become just like them. Very much not. Want to really learn the rite? Visit the Orthodox.

There's nothing wrong with praying for Russia by invoking Mary, whom both sides venerate. It's not a threat against Russian Christianity.

You'll like my answer to the Fr. Gruner types' incessant question "When was Russia properly consecrated?" When St. Vladimir converted.

I remember when the Transalpine Redemptorists were uncanonical and were interested in the Eastern rites and biritualism. Sorry if they stopped but maybe there aren't enough of them to do it.

Having different spiritualities and different theological opinions under one set of doctrine (it's not just about being under the Pope; it's about essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship) is a plus for Catholicism.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2017, 10:31:34 PM »
Having different spiritualities and different theological opinions under one set of doctrine (it's not just about being under the Pope; it's about essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship) is a plus for Catholicism.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2017, 10:46:43 PM »
Sure. The "right," if you will, to use images is an essential, but using them isn't, vs. banning them as the iconoclasts and many Protestants did.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 10:48:19 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2017, 01:24:23 PM »
You'll like my answer to the Fr. Gruner types' incessant question "When was Russia properly consecrated?" When St. Vladimir converted.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2017, 01:30:07 PM »
Without overgeneralizing, I think it's succinct to say that a majority of Catholics - both Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics (especially Byzantine Catholics) - really don't comprehend the doctrinal specifications that have divided the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.
Very true.  Heck, almost all of the Roman Catholic clergymen I know know nothing about the Eastern Catholics!

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
The Catholics seem to be taught that the Orthodox are just a Church which is exactly the same, it's just that due to politics the Orthodox won't obey Peter and as such they are "separated brethren," with the exception that they view divorce and contraception as morally acceptable due to modernism.
However, I wonder if I'd dare to look into Orthodoxy if it weren't for this teaching.  As a matter of fact, seeking to reconcile East and West ended up starting my own reconciliation with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
And it's no disrespect to the Catholic laypeople, it's just that methinks the Catholics are very poorly catechized and there has been a lost sense of Catholic community over the years...
You're bound to find the same ignorance about their own faith among the Orthodox, excepting most  converts, who typically read more than the average Orthodox during their conversions.

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
I feel with this Roman Catholic speaker, he views the Orthodox Church as just a separate Church which is rigid and separate due to politics that could easily be fixed if they re-entered communion with the Pope.
Interestingly, as most Eastern Catholics are Catholic and not Orthodox because of politics and war, this speaker may as well be suggesting that the Russian Church becomes less Russian out of politics.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Talk - "Fatima, Russia and the Holy Unia"
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2017, 01:28:59 PM »
Livenotonevil, not only Trent but the Synod of Jerusalem also testifies that the number of sacraments is but 7 only, no more and no less. It even goes further than we do, "We believe that there are in the Church Evangelical Mysteries [i.e., Sacraments of the Gospel Dispensation], and that they are seven. For a less or a greater number of the Mysteries we have not in the Church; since any number of the Mysteries other than seven is the product of heretical madness."

As for the op, yes Fatima was in an age where "ecumenism-without-return and without dogma" was relatively unknown in Catholic Christendom. Our Lady at Fatima, Lourdes etc confirmed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception (something which many in the Russian Church once believed, but gradually began to reject) and spoke of union only in the old sense of the Orthodox accepting the dogmas of Catholic Faith. St. Maximilian Kolbe, a great Apostle of Our Lady of Fatima, was totally opposed to any false and minimalist ecumenism that put the Blessed Mother, the Papacy etc to the side. Our Lady of Fatima foretold a time when the Russian Orthodox Church will seek to unite with the Catholic Church by reuniting with the Holy Father and professing all dogmas of the Catholic Faith, including the Immaculate Conception. That is the Holy Unia God promises. Until that time comes, we are to wait for grace to work on separated Christians.
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