Author Topic: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation  (Read 1499 times)

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Offline Velsigne

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Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation - The National Herald

Really disturbing to learn that this church is just another pyramid scheme to milk Americans. 

They are millions in deficit. 

These guys quietly attempted to cover their ballooning costs by taxing the parishes and taking funds from where ever they can steal them, like the St Nicholas Church in NYC building fund they advertise on their website. 

They are $8.5M in the hole with $15M missing from the building fund.

One recently dismissed in the wake of these discoveries is "volunteer" Archdiocese Finance Chairman Mr. George Vourvoulias who received $900k over 10 years.  He lied about it at first, but when confronted that there was proof, he said it was for travel expenses. 

What, was he flying to the moon?



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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Disturbing,  I hope they can turn it around,  it begs some questions, about accountability of our Heirarchs in the Greek Archdiocese. Lord have mercy.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 10:08:17 AM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Luke

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Can anyone tell me about the National Herald?  I have not read that paper.  It looks like another source confirmed the report about George Vourvoulias,http://ocl.org/dismissed-archdiocese-finance-chairman-george-vourvoulias-speaks-exclusively-tnh/.   I am not finding anything about a pyramid scheme.  It looks like the Archdiocese is making the right move in employing Grant Thornton.

Offline Agabus

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I think the pyramid scheme characterization is wrong. Not all mismanagement forms a triangle. Sometimes it's just a guy running around in the background shuffling things around really quickly hoping that no one notices.
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Offline Velsigne

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From Investopedia

A pyramid scheme is an illegal investment scam based on a hierarchical setup.  New recruits make up the base of the pyramid and provide the funding, or so-called returns,  the earlier investors/recruits above them receive.  A pyramid scheme does not involve the selling of products.  Rather, it relies on the constant inflow of money from additional investors that works it's way to the top of the pyramid.

The guaranteed high return apparently is access to the chalice and a ticket to heaven.

Or, if you are ethnically Greek, it buys standing in the community.

Apparently these hierarchy guys are spendthrifts, in addition to more funds moving offshore to Turkey.
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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Luke

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^I have only heard of the finance chairman getting into trouble.  There has been no word of the others spending or any pyramid scheme.

Offline Velsigne

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Let's see...8.5 million deficit, combined with 15 million in misappropriated fund makes a minimum of 23 million at minimum they are in the hole

They have given back 75k to another fund they stole from

Of course they aren't saying where they spent all that money, the lack of transparency in these old world churches is part of the mystical allure

Please say something that makes any of this even halfway better

It is difficult enough to be faithful without this sort of at worst criminal at best deceptive thieving behavior going on
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 02:10:48 PM by Velsigne »
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Porter atha!
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Opus118

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https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.
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Offline Iconodule

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It wouldn't be the first lie the National Herald has published.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2017, 04:03:10 PM »
It wouldn't be the first lie the National Herald has published.

I'm sort of unfamiliar with the National Herald, are they like a tabloid? 

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2017, 04:04:16 PM »
From what I can tell the original article is merely a statement from the GOA itself, with no commentary added by the Herald. The statement basically says: we were surprised to learn that we're in significant debt, so we're gonna have to tighten our belts, and also hire some outside financial people to help get things in order.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:05:13 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 04:04:54 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:05:57 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 04:14:21 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.

Um, not if you're skimming it off of church funds as a "volunteer".
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline CarolS

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 04:20:11 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.

Except this was supposed to be travel expenses not salary.  How many 1st class flights and luxury hotel rooms can you buy for that?
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2017, 04:29:32 PM »
Porter atha!

What does "atha!" signify?
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2017, 04:30:35 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.

Thanks for trying.
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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Luke

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2017, 04:35:50 PM »
O.K. I did not see at first that the link I posted had the National Herald as a source.  I am not familiar with the National Herald, so I cannot believe or disbelieve a statement just from them.  I take back the link I posted unless a reliable source prints the story.  I know that the Archdiocese needs to get transparent, but I have not seen any proof that officials took the money.  Maybe there will be in the future and maybe there will not.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:36:27 PM by Luke »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 04:36:57 PM »
Porter atha!

What does "atha!" signify?

"Come", in Aramaic.

Well, Porter would likely frame this incident as justifying direct rule from the Phanar.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 04:37:02 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.

Except this was supposed to be travel expenses not salary.  How many 1st class flights and luxury hotel rooms can you buy for that?

That a Very fair point,  I was confused,  and thought it was salary.  Apparently as Iconodule pointed out,  I missed the part where he was a "volunteer" as well.  It seems someone has been skimming off the top, over a long period of time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:38:18 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 04:40:08 PM »
From what I can tell the original article is merely a statement from the GOA itself, with no commentary added by the Herald. The statement basically says: we were surprised to learn that we're in significant debt, so we're gonna have to tighten our belts, and also hire some outside financial people to help get things in order.

There are more articles in the expose series. 

Surprised

I remember when Metropolitan Geraisimos jumped on then newby now disgraced Jonah for having the temerity to suggest that Americans have autocephaly

At the time I thought given as greedy as Americans are it is probably best left to the mother churches for awhile

I don't think that anymore

Now I see why the real.estate here is divided as it is

Really sad how they expect people living on the edge of starvation to pay their made up Protestant rip off 10% while they live like kings in court
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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2017, 04:45:05 PM »
From what I can tell the original article is merely a statement from the GOA itself, with no commentary added by the Herald. The statement basically says: we were surprised to learn that we're in significant debt, so we're gonna have to tighten our belts, and also hire some outside financial people to help get things in order.

There are more articles in the expose series. 

Any in English that you can link to? Or are they in Greek? So far all I've seen, as far as these accusations go, is the interview linked to earlier.

Offline Rohzek

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2017, 07:24:29 PM »
https://www.goarch.org/-/published-reports-about-missing-funds-are-false

The link has the topic built in. No further information required.

Thank God,  also in the early posts, the fact that gentlemen had $900,000 over 10 years,  isn't so bad,  when you do the math,  it like 90,000 a year,  that like upper-middle class status.

Except this was supposed to be travel expenses not salary.  How many 1st class flights and luxury hotel rooms can you buy for that?

About a month's worth, if you shop around.   I think you could easily blow $90,000 in under a week in Paris, London, San Francisco, Tokyo or Hong Kong, or even Las Vegas even if you did not gamble (the resort fees and the steak houses will still kill you).
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2017, 07:27:36 PM »
Porter atha!

What does "atha!" signify?

"Come", in Aramaic.

It's otho in our Western dialect, right?  From the Lord's prayer I seem to remember that phrase?  Or is one of the As a consonantal Alep?

Btw, how can Alep (or Olep as I suppose we call it, I think I once found an "Olep-Bet" on a Learn Syriac website) be a consonant, anyway? 

Someone embezzled 20% of the vowells of West Syriac around 1400 years ago, I think.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2017, 07:39:22 PM »
Porter atha!

What does "atha!" signify?

"Come", in Aramaic.

It's otho in our Western dialect, right?  From the Lord's prayer I seem to remember that phrase?  Or is one of the As a consonantal Alep?

Btw, how can Alep (or Olep as I suppose we call it, I think I once found an "Olep-Bet" on a Learn Syriac website) be a consonant, anyway? 

Someone embezzled 20% of the vowells of West Syriac around 1400 years ago, I think.

Exclusive: Greek Orthodox Bishops embezzle 20% of Syriac vocabulary, The Persian Times May 14, 561
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 07:39:57 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2017, 08:36:28 PM »
From what I can tell the original article is merely a statement from the GOA itself, with no commentary added by the Herald. The statement basically says: we were surprised to learn that we're in significant debt, so we're gonna have to tighten our belts, and also hire some outside financial people to help get things in order.

There are more articles in the expose series. 

Any in English that you can link to? Or are they in Greek? So far all I've seen, as far as these accusations go, is the interview linked to earlier.

Leadership 100 Grants Missing from Archdiocese]
From what I can tell the original article is merely a statement from the GOA itself, with no commentary added by the Herald. The statement basically says: we were surprised to learn that we're in significant debt, so we're gonna have to tighten our belts, and also hire some outside financial people to help get things in order.

There are more articles in the expose series. 

Any in English that you can link to? Or are they in Greek? So far all I've seen, as far as these accusations go, is the interview linked to earlier.

Leadership 100 Grants Missing from Archdiocese

$15 Million Missing from St. Nicholas Special Account



Bartholomew Urgently Calls upon Demetrios to Explain Archdiocese Finances

Parishes Intend to Stop Paying Archdiocese

Vourvoulias Secretly Campaigns for Bishop Demetrios to Βecome Chicago Metropolitan

For the page listing church related articles: https://www.thenationalherald.com/category/community/church/https://www.thenationalherald.com/category/community/church/

It goes on and on for ages and ages amen
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 08:40:31 PM by Velsigne »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2017, 09:10:17 PM »
Thank you for the links (I may have to subscribe for a while to see the ones I can't at the moment)  :-\

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2017, 09:21:59 PM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2017, 09:43:45 PM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:45:09 PM by Velsigne »
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2017, 09:45:33 PM »
Thank you for the links (I may have to subscribe for a while to see the ones I can't at the moment)  :-\

You're welcome.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2017, 09:57:31 PM »
National Herald does not really have a good track record as a reliable source.

I'm still shocked Porter hasn't weighed in on this.
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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2017, 10:28:33 PM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

Are you OK?
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2017, 10:31:14 PM »
As a staunch Helenophile, I think we should just blame the Jews and call it a day. this was Greek irony, for the record
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 10:32:12 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Luke

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2017, 11:00:06 PM »
^Careful.  Beebert would be then calling us Nazis.

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2017, 11:51:51 PM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated. 

National Herald does not really have a good track record as a reliable source.

TNH (as they abbreviate themselves in their stories) has published a dozen times that, "on reports from those closest to the Patriarch," Archbishop Demetrios would be forced to resign.  They've never printed a retraction.  Someone I know is fond of saying, "When he finally retires or passes, they'll print the headline 'See!  Told you so!'"

They also published (again, on reports from supposedly unimpeachable sources close to the EP) that then-Bishop Savas would "never" become Metropolitan of Pittsburgh.  Their track record speaks for themselves.  They report the most salacious rumors from folks who are willing to share information without corroboration.  When they're wrong, there's no admission of guilt.

"Missing" $15 million dollars was mentioned in an offhand comment at the beginning of a meeting, and was retracted later in the same meeting when it was pointed out that they weren't including the decade-plus totals of legal fees (trying to get St. Nicholas built, fighting the Port Authority of NY & NJ, etc.), architectural and engineering fees, etc..

There aren't debts (i.e. monies owed to banks or lenders), and the Archdiocese is not anywhere close to bankruptcy (the legal / financial term for when one's outstanding liabilities are greater than their assets); even if the most disturbing false rumors were true, the money could be recouped with the sale of one of the two Archdiocesan buildings on E 79th St with $10+million to spare. 

There are true questions of borrowing from restricted funds, and the people who did it allegedly hid this from higher and lower powers.  Since nothing is fully confirmed, I'd wait until the results of the forensic audits (separate ones for GOARCH and St. Nicholas) are complete before I panic.  To date there is no evidence of theft, nor an indication that theft was even possible.  The forensic audits are being done to demonstrate this.

Independent Audits have been done by the firm of Grant Thornton (https://www.grantthornton.com/ or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Thornton_International) for the years 2007-2015, and can be found here: https://www.goarch.org/-/financial-statements?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2Fdepartments%2Ffinance
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2017, 11:58:34 PM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

It is not so much the National Herald, it is articles by Theodoros Kalmoukos who practices yellow journalism. There is already a thread  largely about him last August.  But to go back further you can start here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27268.msg428993.html#msg428993 
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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2017, 12:08:36 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

It is not so much the National Herald, it is articles by Theodoros Kalmoukos who practices yellow journalism. There is already a thread  largely about him last August.  But to go back further you can start here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27268.msg428993.html#msg428993 

7.5 years after that thread... still no forced resignation of His Eminence by His All-Holiness.  My firstborn was not even a full year old at the time; now she's in 3rd grade.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:09:14 AM by Fr. George »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2017, 12:50:29 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

Are you OK?

I don't know if you are being funny or not, but seriously, no I'm not ok.  This is like the last cut of thousands trying to be involved in an Orthodox parish.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2017, 01:01:37 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated. 

National Herald does not really have a good track record as a reliable source.

TNH (as they abbreviate themselves in their stories) has published a dozen times that, "on reports from those closest to the Patriarch," Archbishop Demetrios would be forced to resign.  They've never printed a retraction.  Someone I know is fond of saying, "When he finally retires or passes, they'll print the headline 'See!  Told you so!'"

They also published (again, on reports from supposedly unimpeachable sources close to the EP) that then-Bishop Savas would "never" become Metropolitan of Pittsburgh.  Their track record speaks for themselves.  They report the most salacious rumors from folks who are willing to share information without corroboration.  When they're wrong, there's no admission of guilt.

"Missing" $15 million dollars was mentioned in an offhand comment at the beginning of a meeting, and was retracted later in the same meeting when it was pointed out that they weren't including the decade-plus totals of legal fees (trying to get St. Nicholas built, fighting the Port Authority of NY & NJ, etc.), architectural and engineering fees, etc..

There aren't debts (i.e. monies owed to banks or lenders), and the Archdiocese is not anywhere close to bankruptcy (the legal / financial term for when one's outstanding liabilities are greater than their assets); even if the most disturbing false rumors were true, the money could be recouped with the sale of one of the two Archdiocesan buildings on E 79th St with $10+million to spare. 

There are true questions of borrowing from restricted funds, and the people who did it allegedly hid this from higher and lower powers.  Since nothing is fully confirmed, I'd wait until the results of the forensic audits (separate ones for GOARCH and St. Nicholas) are complete before I panic.  To date there is no evidence of theft, nor an indication that theft was even possible.  The forensic audits are being done to demonstrate this.

Independent Audits have been done by the firm of Grant Thornton (https://www.grantthornton.com/ or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Thornton_International) for the years 2007-2015, and can be found here: https://www.goarch.org/-/financial-statements?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2Fdepartments%2Ffinance


The personal rumours and politics, those fly around here too, don't pay much attention. 

Massive misallocation of funds with the Archbp admitting there is a problem, not so much.

Paying $15M in legal fees to build a church?  There's a problem with basic sanity there.

How about they build fifteen small buildings around the US instead of putting the squeeze on parishes to fund their lavish lifestyles?

No?  Why?  Because in pyramid schemes money always has to go to the top.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2017, 01:03:00 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

It is not so much the National Herald, it is articles by Theodoros Kalmoukos who practices yellow journalism. There is already a thread  largely about him last August.  But to go back further you can start here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27268.msg428993.html#msg428993 

7.5 years after that thread... still no forced resignation of His Eminence by His All-Holiness.  My firstborn was not even a full year old at the time; now she's in 3rd grade.

That's petty politics, popish plots.  Big difference when the topic is mathematics and accounting.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2017, 09:36:52 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated. 

National Herald does not really have a good track record as a reliable source.

TNH (as they abbreviate themselves in their stories) has published a dozen times that, "on reports from those closest to the Patriarch," Archbishop Demetrios would be forced to resign.  They've never printed a retraction.  Someone I know is fond of saying, "When he finally retires or passes, they'll print the headline 'See!  Told you so!'"

They also published (again, on reports from supposedly unimpeachable sources close to the EP) that then-Bishop Savas would "never" become Metropolitan of Pittsburgh.  Their track record speaks for themselves.  They report the most salacious rumors from folks who are willing to share information without corroboration.  When they're wrong, there's no admission of guilt.

"Missing" $15 million dollars was mentioned in an offhand comment at the beginning of a meeting, and was retracted later in the same meeting when it was pointed out that they weren't including the decade-plus totals of legal fees (trying to get St. Nicholas built, fighting the Port Authority of NY & NJ, etc.), architectural and engineering fees, etc..

There aren't debts (i.e. monies owed to banks or lenders), and the Archdiocese is not anywhere close to bankruptcy (the legal / financial term for when one's outstanding liabilities are greater than their assets); even if the most disturbing false rumors were true, the money could be recouped with the sale of one of the two Archdiocesan buildings on E 79th St with $10+million to spare. 

There are true questions of borrowing from restricted funds, and the people who did it allegedly hid this from higher and lower powers.  Since nothing is fully confirmed, I'd wait until the results of the forensic audits (separate ones for GOARCH and St. Nicholas) are complete before I panic.  To date there is no evidence of theft, nor an indication that theft was even possible.  The forensic audits are being done to demonstrate this.

Independent Audits have been done by the firm of Grant Thornton (https://www.grantthornton.com/ or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Thornton_International) for the years 2007-2015, and can be found here: https://www.goarch.org/-/financial-statements?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2Fdepartments%2Ffinance


The personal rumours and politics, those fly around here too, don't pay much attention. 

Massive misallocation of funds with the Archbp admitting there is a problem, not so much.

Paying $15M in legal fees to build a church?  There's a problem with basic sanity there.

How about they build fifteen small buildings around the US instead of putting the squeeze on parishes to fund their lavish lifestyles?

No?  Why?  Because in pyramid schemes money always has to go to the top.

Did I say "$15M in legal fees?"  Has anyone said "$15M in legal fees?"  No.  I said:

Quote
"Missing" $15 million dollars was mentioned in an offhand comment at the beginning of a meeting, and was retracted later in the same meeting when it was pointed out that they weren't including the decade-plus totals of legal fees (trying to get St. Nicholas built, fighting the Port Authority of NY & NJ, etc.), architectural and engineering fees, etc..

The $15M includes legal fees (which is not just suing the Port Authority for breach of our deal and obfuscation), architectural fees, engineering studies, and the other pre-construction steps (preparing for fundraising, studies, etc.).  The legal fees are not the largest part of the equation.  These figures have been repeatedly reported at Archdiocesan Clergy-Laity Congresses, Council meetings, and other public fora over the past 4+ years.

Continuing to use the phrase "pyramid scheme" won't make your accusations any more true or compelling.  "Lavish lifestyles" is generally laughable.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2017, 09:58:42 AM »
Archdiocesan Council Receives Full Report on Financial Situation

The Archdiocesan Council of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, under the chairmanship of Archbishop Demetrios of America, convened at New York’s Marriott Marquis Hotel for its regularly scheduled fall meeting Oct. 19-20. During the meeting the Archdiocesan Council was updated on the financial situation of the Archdiocese...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Greek American Archdiocese Releases Information on Its Financial Situation
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2017, 10:32:01 AM »
The National Herald previously published some bogus stories about the EP telling Abp Demetrios to resign, so their credibility is pretty laughable. Until someone else more serious corroborates then I think it’s fair to assume any “exclusive” National Herald story is fabricated.

Apparently Archbp Demetrios believes it if you take a second and read his statement about how he is going to supposedly straighten this out in two weeks. 

Yeah, like a mess of this magnitude gets straightened out in two weeks. 

He says a full review is underway.  Well, a full review would take longer than a week or two.  More like months.

I could churn out some crap in two weeks, but it wouldn't really dig up who has been taking all this money, and exactly where it all has been spent.

Are you OK?

I don't know if you are being funny or not, but seriously, no I'm not ok.  This is like the last cut of thousands trying to be involved in an Orthodox parish.

Well, maybe the problems of "trying to be involved in an Orthodox parish" would be a better topic for us to discuss with such passion as you have exhibited here.  I'm not saying that the topic of this thread is not worth discussing at all, but why expend so much passion on the "last cut" and not the "thousands" that came before? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).