Author Topic: Hell eternal?  (Read 3690 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
If we all have lost our minds for Christ's sake, there is no talking sense to us. Christians should be fools in the world's eyes. I relish whenever someone says to be a Christian is madness. I'd rather go mad for Christ than conform to whatever stupidity the world deems as "wisdom". If beebert carried a lit lantern in daylight towards me and cried incessantly "Your religion is sick and a lie!", well if true I'd still much rather stay with Christ. There's nothing this world can offer as a sufficient alternative, it's all vanity.
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2017, 12:19:49 PM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
No I go to a restaurant that claims to serve good - even the best - food, but that in reality serves poison.

You're one of the very few people the menu disagrees with. Consider that the problem may lie with you, not with the food or the other customers. Then stop patronising the establishment.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2017, 12:32:35 PM »
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
You might say that but then I'd have to ask what isn't egoistic? If I wanted to keep my ego-centrism Christianity wouldn't be the religion for me.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
You might say that but then I'd have to ask what isn't egoistic? If I wanted to keep my ego-centrism Christianity wouldn't be the religion for me.
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2017, 12:51:41 PM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
No I go to a restaurant that claims to serve good - even the best - food, but that in reality serves poison.

You're one of the very few people the menu disagrees with. Consider that the problem may lie with you, not with the food or the other customers. Then stop patronising the establishment.
Not sure. Many have realized the stupidity behind this religion; in other words; I am not the Only one who has been poisoned. But this poison is like drugs. Many get hooked.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #140 on: October 17, 2017, 12:56:55 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Sharbel

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #141 on: October 17, 2017, 01:05:29 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
I do it not so much for his sake, but for the sake of lurkers.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Sharbel

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2017, 01:07:57 PM »
Don't we sinners act in this very same way, resenting the goodness of God because of our wickedness and blaming our moral failures on His love for us, ever since... Eden?  Nay, in my decades on this earth I've come to the conclusion that this is the most plausible answer.

More boring, pedantic, and smug things like pride, vanity, and vainglory take precedence over something like that from my experience
I think that we agree, but don't all these passions boil down to our failure or unwillingness to trust and love God, propping our own selves up as rival gods or idols?
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Sharbel

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2017, 01:08:10 PM »
If we all have lost our minds for Christ's sake, there is no talking sense to us. Christians should be fools in the world's eyes. I relish whenever someone says to be a Christian is madness. I'd rather go mad for Christ than conform to whatever stupidity the world deems as "wisdom". If beebert carried a lit lantern in daylight towards me and cried incessantly "Your religion is sick and a lie!", well if true I'd still much rather stay with Christ. There's nothing this world can offer as a sufficient alternative, it's all vanity.
+1
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2017, 01:26:01 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
I do it not so much for his sake, but for the sake of lurkers.

+1. We don't argue to change the minds of those who disagree, but to show those who silently agree that they are not alone.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #145 on: October 17, 2017, 01:36:37 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2017, 01:57:29 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #147 on: October 17, 2017, 02:23:01 PM »
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
I sympathize with you, there are definitely Christians that see its own religion as nothing more than a ticket to paradise, away from this worst of worlds. I find that view nihilistic but I'm not sure you can fault people who believe that especially if its a symptom from an oppressed creature as Marx put it.

Maybe we should be asking different questions. Why be a Christian, what is it about Christianity that is better? How can this change my life for the better? More meaningful, more joyful? You might think these questions are egoistic, but isn't it necessary to ask? My concerns are more life-affirming than they are life-denying, as if you need afterlife morphine. If I'm going to live, then I better have something worthwhile to live for. I sometimes wonder if Milbank is right that Christian theology is a hair's breath from nihilism.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:25:34 PM by RobS »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Mikem605

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2017, 04:52:11 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke

The main thing to question is the lies you tell yourself every time you affirm that time, space, and matter just happened brother.
Pride is a very horrible thing.
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved." ~ Seraphim of Sarov

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,997
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #149 on: October 17, 2017, 05:07:41 PM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

Speaking as a professional who has a little bit of experience in this, you are not alone in psychiatric disease, but you are alone in your delusions of what causes it.  It is these delusions that make you keep going back, and not being realistic of the cause.  You reject Christianity now and curse it, but you will still go back, which means it is something else that is damaging you, not Christianity.

Your brain is like any other body part.  It could get physically damaged just as much someone with heart disease.  Physical damage of the brain can lead to psychological issues, and certain emotional or rational issues other people can handle you may not.  Like heart disease.  Some people can handle lifting weights, but it may hurt those with heart disease even more.  You are no different.  Your damage is from within you, not from Christianity, and you need to realize that in yourself, and take it easy.

I wanted to compare your mental issues to physical issues because the fact of the matter is we are all weak and prone to diseases within ourselves, and there is no shame in that other than to recognize it and to live a healthy life according to your own personal capabilities.

So, cheer up, there's hope for you.  But don't displace your anger and blame Christianity.  Blame nature, and overcome it with the help of your doctor.

God bless.


No, I do not agree with you.

No, I do not agree that you do not agree with me.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2017, 05:20:38 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke

The main thing to question is the lies you tell yourself every time you affirm that time, space, and matter just happened brother.
Pride is a very horrible thing.
Hey, what on earth does that have ANYTHING to do with what I said? And where did I say things just happened?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:23:40 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2017, 05:21:47 PM »
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
I sympathize with you, there are definitely Christians that see its own religion as nothing more than a ticket to paradise, away from this worst of worlds. I find that view nihilistic but I'm not sure you can fault people who believe that especially if its a symptom from an oppressed creature as Marx put it.

Maybe we should be asking different questions. Why be a Christian, what is it about Christianity that is better? How can this change my life for the better? More meaningful, more joyful? You might think these questions are egoistic, but isn't it necessary to ask? My concerns are more life-affirming than they are life-denying, as if you need afterlife morphine. If I'm going to live, then I better have something worthwhile to live for. I sometimes wonder if Milbank is right that Christian theology is a hair's breath from nihilism.
I Would say that Milbank would be right if you/he took away the words "a hair's breath from"
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:24:52 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ZackShenouda439

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
    • http://www.saintmarkkc.org
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #152 on: October 18, 2017, 05:12:27 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,386
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2017, 11:00:38 PM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting line a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.

I think it's simple. Beebert suffers from a personality disturbance with delusions of grandeur, and he's here to dazzle us as a new Anti-messiah. He's spoken of himself as discovering a new religion, and as a new Nietzsche. He uses our forum and probably others as a proving-ground of his grandiose gifts before unveiling them to the world. In this regard perhaps he's a severe case of that of which a few other posters are a mild. Regardless, that his case involves some blasphemous and very repugnant promotions sets it apart and invites the abhorrence it receives here. Mounting a blander conquest of us would probably just invite the routine ridicule.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2017, 04:04:14 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting line a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.

I think it's simple. Beebert suffers from a personality disturbance with delusions of grandeur, and he's here to dazzle us as a new Anti-messiah. He's spoken of himself as discovering a new religion, and as a new Nietzsche. He uses our forum and probably others as a proving-ground of his grandiose gifts before unveiling them to the world. In this regard perhaps he's a severe case of that of which a few other posters are a mild. Regardless, that his case involves some blasphemous and very repugnant promotions sets it apart and invites the abhorrence it receives here. Mounting a blander conquest of us would probably just invite the routine ridicule.
I like the grandiose thoughts of Paul the Chosen One and Jesus the Son of God. Actually when thinking about it I must be a Christian now when thinking about them and their discovering of a new religion.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #155 on: October 19, 2017, 04:06:32 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2017, 04:22:01 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

The people who started venerating St John immediately after his repose clearly believed he was a saint, and the Church confirmed said veneration.

Regarding his homilies against Jews, perspective - get some.

As for hell, get comfy, this will take a while: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/what-is-orthodox-hell/
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 448
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2017, 12:06:00 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #158 on: October 19, 2017, 01:22:09 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Anyway, I was sure Christianity was false for various reasons too, and I changed my mind. There's no real way to perfectly determine the "truth" of any proposition. That's why we need a pragmatic approach to reality, rather than going around trying to expose, dismantle and destroy any system we find lacking in some way. I mean that's exactly why the Soviet Union was such a hellhole. Don't replace the noble virtues of the philosophers and the theologians with the perceived noble virtues (though I would argue selfish and pretentious) of dismantling any perceived oppressive or false system. That will just leave you bitter, hateful and destructive.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 01:23:54 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Mikem605

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2017, 12:54:08 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Anyway, I was sure Christianity was false for various reasons too, and I changed my mind. There's no real way to perfectly determine the "truth" of any proposition. That's why we need a pragmatic approach to reality, rather than going around trying to expose, dismantle and destroy any system we find lacking in some way. I mean that's exactly why the Soviet Union was such a hellhole. Don't replace the noble virtues of the philosophers and the theologians with the perceived noble virtues (though I would argue selfish and pretentious) of dismantling any perceived oppressive or false system. That will just leave you bitter, hateful and destructive.

I think he's doing what every other new atheist does. Takes everything out of context, especially the theological, historical, and philosophical of the verse. Weather it be scripture, patristics, or any of the sort. He doesn't want the Trinity to exist because that'll mean his overreaction to mental problems that he created himself would be wrong. Pride in a nutshell.
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved." ~ Seraphim of Sarov

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2017, 11:12:24 PM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?

Who says the Rich Man wanted it? He wanted out of Hell, sure, but did he just want to get out while still holding onto his pride, contempt for Lazarus, etc? Why should God let him have his cake and eat it, too? To paraphrase Finney--Jesus came to save His people from their sins, not in their sins.

Or, in other words, would you want to share some eternal plane with an unrepentant, ranting, assaulting Hitler? To me that sounds pretty Hellish in and of itself, especially if you're one of the people that Hitler hated.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:13:16 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2017, 11:25:55 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:26:22 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,486
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2017, 01:16:09 AM »
What are the "Jews" supposed to be? Because I don't know.
Learn meditation.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,107
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #163 on: October 22, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »
What are the "Jews" supposed to be? Because I don't know.

You can find pictures of Jews here, here, here and here. These all seem like fine people to me (especially the last one).

Offline Mikem605

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.



My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."

I'll have to refute your last point. I think everyone has every right to be skeptical of people telling us that we're all going to be under water in 50 years. Especially since weather or not we are effecting the global temperature like they say we are is still being debated. But anyway back to the topic.
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved." ~ Seraphim of Sarov

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2017, 10:49:29 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.



My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."

I'll have to refute your last point. I think everyone has every right to be skeptical of people telling us that we're all going to be under water in 50 years. Especially since weather or not we are effecting the global temperature like they say we are is still being debated. But anyway back to the topic.

That's a strawman. Venice will be underwater, sure. Bangladesh, likely. Miami, possibly. Not everybody on the planet, though.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,609
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #166 on: October 25, 2017, 10:32:43 PM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

"After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting."

People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

You must see the irony of this.

Even if you imagine God a trickster, an outright deceiver. A psychopath, even. If God is a psychopath, what is the moral to the story? If God is a psychopath, there is no moral to the story, so why the pretense?

Correct.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:50:35 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,386
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #167 on: October 27, 2017, 02:37:50 PM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

"After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting."

People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

You must see the irony of this.

Even if you imagine God a trickster, an outright deceiver. A psychopath, even. If God is a psychopath, what is the moral to the story? If God is a psychopath, there is no moral to the story, so why the pretense?

Correct.

Yes, how could a part comprise a quality (moral judgement) not in the whole? But you have to remember that Beebert as a Nietzschean fancies himself his own creator and a rival to God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline youssef

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2017, 04:25:22 AM »
Met Georges Khodr: Man, not God, Created Hell

The Heart is God's Dwelling-Place

What does it mean for us to gather together and perform the divine sacrifice for the soul of a brother of ours who has gone on to God's mercy? What we know about death from the New Testament is that God recompenses each according to his deeds and that one's eternal fate is tied to his actions. What I would like to draw attention to in the saying "Man's actions follow him and God recompenses each according to his deeds" is that it does not mean that God keeps an account, a record in heaven in which man's deeds are accounted to him, whether good or bad. Rather, it is a calling to good work.

The blessed saying that God recompenses each according to his deeds (Romans 5:2-6 and Revelation 22:12) mean that man is purified by his deeds. If you love the Lord and your neighbor and you do good to him, pay attention to him, distract him from his sorrow and distress, are there for him in all situations, and are humble, then your works purify you. It is not that God reckons them. They purify you and lift you up to Him. It is not an issue of recompense or punishment. God does not take revenge and He is not pleased to see people being punished in hell.

The truth that has been declared to us is that God draws man to Himself and that man also approaches God through obedience. Man sees himself loving God and he sees God loving him and it is all love. One who loves is drawn to the face of God. One who does not love goes away from the face of God and remains in his darkness. It is not that God casts anyone into the outer darkness. It is not that God created hell: God did not create hell. Man created hell for himself and he torments himself in his sins. There is no sin that does not bear its own punishment.

God does not punish. Man hates and the hate itself is a torment. Man is not cast into hell haphazardly and arbitrarily, but rather brings hell to himself. It is cast into him and he is not cast into it. Man puts himself in darkness because he does not love, because he does not purify himself. If he loves, he places heaven within himself. Man does not go and come. He does not rise and fall. Man is here in this human heart. He brings God to his heart or he fills it with evil. He rejoices at virtue and it elevates him and makes him beautiful.

If God dwells in the human heart-- that is, if virtue dwells within it-- then it is a heaven. And if we understand that if sin dwells within the human heart and rends it, it becomes a hell, then we have understood everything. There is nothing in this world apart from God. If you love Him, then you are with Him and you are in Him and He is in you. If you love your lust and your sin and you hate people, then you are in hell and hell is in you. You are with the devil and the devil is attached to you and you are far from the face of God because you shrink from Him and because you anger Him with your deeds.

Do not think that a person loves God because he talks about Him and because he prays. This is not the criterion. The criterion is someone loves God if he obeys His commandments and is obedient to his brothers. Prayer, the holy mysteries, fasts and spiritual efforts are all only necessary means for us to arrive at the spiritual beauty within us, which is God's dwelling there.

We gather together in the Divine Liturgy because of our faith that the divine love that was poured out  on the cross is poured out in the Divine Liturgy, which is the celebration of the cross that was completed on Golgotha and the celebration of the Resurrection.

http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.fr/2017/10/met-georges-khodr-man-not-god-created.html?m=1

Offline Ant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Faith: Church of The East
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2017, 06:41:47 PM »
Thank you very much for that, youssef. Great read! I've thought for quite some time now that we essentially send ourselves to hell by sinning and it's not God hurling us into a lake of fire. Even St. Isaac tells us that hell is the fruit of sin.

That said, I think the confusion for me lies in the word "eternal." I don't know if eternal truly means eternal - as in, without end - or if it has an entirely different meaning. For instance, in Jonah 2:6 it says:

6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
    the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
    brought my life up from the pit.


So Jonah tells us that he was barred in forever, but then the Lord brought him up from the pit? How then is that forever? I honestly don't get it.