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Offline Ant

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Hell eternal?
« on: October 11, 2017, 11:22:58 PM »
I've done very limited research on this topic over the years but I've heard that there is no official doctrine on what hell truly is. I remember reading somewhere that there's 4 "official" views of hell? From it being a literal fire, to hell (according to St. Isaac) being an effect, etc. One thing that orthodoxy doesn't seem to sway on, though, and seems to be in full agreement with, is the idea that hell is eternal. If so, how would one make sense of this:

"IN BRIEF

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him."

Found on:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

So apparently hell (as I understand it, is to be "deprived of the vision of God") is NOT eternal? Or is it just eternal for the damned and not everlasting for the Just? Can someone make sense of this for me, please?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 12:06:43 AM »
Which "hell" are we talking about? The modern English usage elides or at least conflates several historical theological concepts and translates multiple words of classical languages. So you need to define your terms and St. Isaac's before we can hope to proceed.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 12:14:49 AM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 12:11:27 AM »
You seem to be describing the Roman Catholic idea of hell in contrast against the Orthodox idea of hell.

Let me see if I - not even a catachumen - can describe it, and if I am erroneous, please correct me someone LEST I teach it incorrectly.

In Orthodoxy, there is a distinction that exists which isn't there in Roman Catholicism between "the realm of the dead" / "hades" and "hell."

Hell according to Orthodoxy is not actually the deprivation of God, but it is actually the experience of God which, due to the soul's hatred and disdain towards God on earth, experiences the greatest amount of pain. It isn't like a location, but rather a state of existence of experiencing God's glory in a painful manner.

In fact, Heaven and Hell both have the same source of God - Heaven is the same experience of Hell, but it is how the soul perceives God's glory.

Saint Paul describes it in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
"Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

In fact, actual "hell" will not really be experienced until after the Great Judgment, where both body and soul experience the Glory of God in a much greater extent.

"Hades" is the state of existence of the state of death, which people before Christ's death and after Christ's death have experienced - however, the souls will receive a particular taste of the glory or the eternal punishment to come, kind of like a precursor to Hell or Heaven.
This is called "Particular Judgment," which occurs before the Great Judgment. The Virgin Mary is the only exception of experiencing Heaven in its fullness due to her sinlessness, which is why her Dormition is so significant.
I believe that the "Harrowing of Hell" represents Christ spreading the Good News to the souls of the dead, rather than physically moving them from one location to another.

The Roman Catholic Church - while describing hell, heaven, and purgatory as states of being, tend to view them with a greater identity of physical or metaphysical locations, with different levels of each. The "realm of the dead" traditionally has been described as Limbo, which was viewed as a sort of level of hell - the highest level of hell (in terms of the least amount of pain) in which people were taken out and brought to heaven. In fact, purgatory according to Aquinas I believe was viewed as just a "cleaning room" in hell. There is no distinction between such locations and ideas before and after the Great Judgment, other than the souls return to their prior location with their bodies and souls together.

Hell, from a Roman perspective, is seen as the deprivation of God - the cause of all good things - which causes eternal and infinite suffering, as there is no good thing in hell.
The Orthodox Church counters this by pointing to Psalm 139.

This is how I understood it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 12:14:28 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 01:06:54 AM »
I've done very limited research on this topic over the years but I've heard that there is no official doctrine on what hell truly is. I remember reading somewhere that there's 4 "official" views of hell? From it being a literal fire, to hell (according to St. Isaac) being an effect, etc. One thing that orthodoxy doesn't seem to sway on, though, and seems to be in full agreement with, is the idea that hell is eternal. If so, how would one make sense of this:

"IN BRIEF

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him."

Found on:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

So apparently hell (as I understand it, is to be "deprived of the vision of God") is NOT eternal? Or is it just eternal for the damned and not everlasting for the Just? Can someone make sense of this for me, please?

Eternal hell means just more good view for the christians, that sinners will have torment forever. But in reality hell is another planet prison with bodies not souls and it is not eternal, maybe souls can be dematerialised and then it can become worst thing that can happen for somebody but no, hell is not eternal. About that I don't believe that people are not become immortal before Christ.

Offline Ant

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 01:10:59 AM »
Thank you both for your replies.

Which "hell" are we talking about? The modern English usage elides or at least conflates several historical theological concepts and translates multiple words of classical languages. So you need to define your terms and St. Isaac's before we can hope to proceed.


I'd like to know what the orthodox view is. St. Isaac tells us when a man becomes conscious that he's sinned against love, that a greater torment doesn't exist. He says for that reason he believes that the effect of Gehenna is bitter regret. As mentioned, an effect and not a literal place.

Hell according to Orthodoxy is not actually the deprivation of God, but it is actually the experience of God which, due to the soul's hatred and disdain towards God on earth, experiences the greatest amount of pain. It isn't like a location, but rather a state of existence of experiencing God's glory in a painful manner.

Are there any examples that have been used by the early Church Fathers to explain this state of existence you mention? St. Isaac mentions regret, which does seem to fit into your definition - a state that does create large amounts of pain within people.

Also, according to the above link, Hell and Sheol are the same thing. It claims that Sheol is simply the Hebrew word for Hell, which is also (correct me if I'm mistaken) considered the "Realm of the dead."

In fact, actual "hell" will not really be experienced until after the Great Judgment, where both body and soul experience the Glory of God in a much greater extent.

If "hell" really is the realm of the spiritually dead and Jesus did, in fact, descend into hell, then it existed 2,000 years ago and probably exists today as well, no? I wonder if hell is the spiritual state of any man that isn't experiencing theoria - the beatific vision. Is it too simple a statement to say that if a man is not enlightened, that he is in hell?

I believe that the "Harrowing of Hell" represents Christ spreading the Good News to the souls of the dead, rather than physically moving them from one location to another.

But again, if hell is not an actual place, then Jesus wouldn't really need to move anyone anywhere, would He? Because heaven was within them already. He descended into "hell" and relayed the Good News to them to bring them to spiritual heights (heights that existed within their very own soul) and thus to free them from the darkness that overshadowed their souls, so that they can finally see the Light. Is there any reason why this would not be true?

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 11:52:26 AM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:54:50 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 12:32:21 PM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

Talk about sick ideas.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 01:24:28 PM »
Quote
For not everything that is granted in the resurrection a return to existence will return to the same kind of life. There is a wide interval between those who have been purified, and those who still need purification. For those in whose life-time here the purification by the laver has preceded, there is a restoration to a kindred state. Now, to the pure, freedom from passion is that kindred state, and that in this freedom from passion blessedness consists, admits of no dispute. But as for those whose weaknesses have become inveterate, and to whom no purgation of their defilement has been applied, no mystic water, no invocation of the Divine power, no amendment by repentance, it is absolutely necessary that they should come to be in something proper to their case,—just as the furnace is the proper thing for gold alloyed with dross,—in order that, the vice which has been mixed up in them being melted away after long succeeding ages, their nature may be restored pure again to God. Since, then, there is a cleansing virtue in fire and water, they who by the mystic water have washed away the defilement of their sin have no further need of the other form of purification, while they who have not been admitted to that form of purgation must needs be purified by fire.

Saint Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism
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Offline Ant

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2017, 04:42:25 PM »
To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.'

When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.
After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting.

Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

Is there anything from the early Church Fathers that you can provide that would help substantiate this claim? Because (and unless I'm mistaken - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I believe that the official Orthodox view is that Jesus did, in fact, descend into "hell." Maybe I'm missing something? Is there a specific name for God's "prison" that I not only may be more familiar with, but a name that would distinguish it from what Orthodoxy has come to understand as being "hell"?

"There is a wide interval between those who have been purified, and those who still need purification."

But even this suggests that hell isn't eternal, wouldn't you say? "...those who still need purification" means what exactly? What happens after they've been purified? Do they remain in hell? Is hell full to the brim with righteous, purified souls? If so, are they counted as part of the "just" that Jesus descended into hell to free? Or, since they're in hell, regardless of their purity, they remain there for eternity?

"just as the furnace is the proper thing for gold alloyed with dross,—in order that, the vice which has been mixed up in them being melted away after long succeeding ages, their nature may be restored pure again to God."

This, also, seems to suggest that hell isn't everlasting and is meant for purification. It's meant to restore people to their original state (the way God originally created them), which is pure. I mean St. Isaac tells us that even the demons, at one point in time, were pure and experiencing divine vision - the same vision that many of our saints experienced - which, perhaps, is the reason he is (or has been deemed) a universalist.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 04:43:43 PM by Ant »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 04:48:19 PM »
Yes, Ant, Saint Gregory of Nyssa is a universalist. This was not an uncommon view among church fathers, though it was also not the only one. You might be interested to read the book Christ the Conqueror of Hell by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, which gives a pretty comprehensive overview of early Church teaching regarding Christ's descent into hell. I discussed the book here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,72367.0.html
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Offline Ant

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2017, 05:14:49 PM »
Thank you, Iconodule. Sounds very interesting. I'll look into it right now.

Offline recent convert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 10:14:31 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 10:50:32 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2017, 11:00:14 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 11:01:36 AM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

"After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting."

People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 11:02:52 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2017, 11:04:49 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2017, 11:05:56 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 11:07:58 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.

Don't believe everything you think.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 11:12:27 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
Maybe God has.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 11:13:21 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.

Don't believe everything you think.
That is right. Intelligent (not). You just said that I was right while trying to say the opposite and pretend to be clever.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 11:14:50 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2017, 11:14:27 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
Maybe God has.
He must have. Either that or he is weak or evil or doesnt exist
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2017, 11:21:54 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.

Don't believe everything you think.
That is right. Intelligent (not). You just said that I was right while trying to say the opposite and pretend to be clever.

You just didn't understand what I said, but I'll cut you some slack because English is not your first language.

Anyway, you don't believe in gods and devils and hells and such superstitions. Just let it go, already.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 11:22:17 AM by Arachne »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2017, 11:33:00 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
Maybe God has.
He must have. Either that or he is weak or evil or doesnt exist
Or you have a problem with the possibility of a happy ending?
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2017, 11:36:18 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.

Don't believe everything you think.
That is right. Intelligent (not). You just said that I was right while trying to say the opposite and pretend to be clever.

You just didn't understand what I said, but I'll cut you some slack because English is not your first language.

Anyway, you don't believe in gods and devils and hells and such superstitions. Just let it go, already.
I consider holding many of the views that many of you hold here to be criminal and a crime against life and humanity.

I understood what you Said. One shouldnt Always believe what one thinks, and I Said that you think not that the likelyhood is big that the supporters of hell Will End up in hell, to which you replied that one should not Believe Always what one thinks. Ergo: The likelyhood is big that hell-worshippers deserve to suffer forever
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2017, 11:36:59 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
Maybe God has.
He must have. Either that or he is weak or evil or doesnt exist
Or you have a problem with the possibility of a happy ending?
A happy ending according to you would be?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2017, 11:44:00 AM »
Everybody gets a prize!!!
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2017, 11:46:58 AM »
Beebert, dude...get over yourself.  You clearly are not in any state of mind to have a cogent discussion on this issue, pretending to be the special rebel you really are not.
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2017, 11:48:48 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.


I Believe the likelyhood that it Will turn out that way is far greater than you think.

Don't believe everything you think.
That is right. Intelligent (not). You just said that I was right while trying to say the opposite and pretend to be clever.

You just didn't understand what I said, but I'll cut you some slack because English is not your first language.

Anyway, you don't believe in gods and devils and hells and such superstitions. Just let it go, already.
I consider holding many of the views that many of you hold here to be criminal and a crime against life and humanity.

I understood what you Said. One shouldnt Always believe what one thinks, and I Said that you think not that the likelyhood is big that the supporters of hell Will End up in hell, to which you replied that one should not Believe Always what one thinks. Ergo: The likelyhood is big that hell-worshippers deserve to suffer forever

What I and several others have been saying, in this thread and others, is that we can't know exactly what the experience of hell is like, or how long it lasts, or much less, who will end up in it. We don't, and can't, have the whole story. All we can do is our best, and trust to God for the rest.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2017, 11:49:55 AM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?
Maybe God has.
He must have. Either that or he is weak or evil or doesnt exist
Or you have a problem with the possibility of a happy ending?
A happy ending according to you would be?
Not according to me but the parable; that the rich man is with Lazarus.in the bosom of Abraham. Next question, of course.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2017, 12:21:26 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

Your opinions are all stupid, every single one of them.  None of your thoughts has even a scintilla of truth and reason, not a single one.  Everything you say is wrong.  Everything you think is wrong.  It is likely that your real-life actions are also wrong.  Everything about you reflects severe delusion, a delusion you appear to be madly in love with, a delusion you want to couple with, a delusion whose children you want to bring into the world so that you are not alone.  You are most to be pitied. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2017, 01:16:10 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

Your opinions are all stupid, every single one of them.  None of your thoughts has even a scintilla of truth and reason, not a single one.  Everything you say is wrong.  Everything you think is wrong.  It is likely that your real-life actions are also wrong.  Everything about you reflects severe delusion, a delusion you appear to be madly in love with, a delusion you want to couple with, a delusion whose children you want to bring into the world so that you are not alone.  You are most to be pitied.
Lol. A genius has appeared. To even finish reading what you wrote is to waste time
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 01:17:16 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2017, 01:47:10 PM »
Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me. And that's not because I'm righteous or strong in faith. It's because your posts are dross. They're mostly weak regurgitations of stuff we've all heard before, or maybe even spouted in the past.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2017, 02:25:19 PM »
Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me. And that's not because I'm righteous or strong in faith. It's because your posts are dross. They're mostly weak regurgitations of stuff we've all heard before, or maybe even spouted in the past.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.
I read it and it was also a Waste of time. It gave me nothing. It smells like it is written by a liar. No substance. No understanding.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2017, 02:36:25 PM »
If there is anything more we need to understand about you, please enlighten us. We are not psychic.

We have watched you have a very public meltdown on this forum, where what little faith you had crumbled in front of us through your hysterical fear of hell and your complete inability to take any advice our membership offered. It doesn't look like the fear left you together with the faith, however. There's nothing Über about your flailings.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2017, 02:36:53 PM »
Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is.

I'll second this post.   Beebert, it's not even so much your opinions that matter,  but your methods, your injection of too much personality/ emotivism, and use of the forum to engage other people that is counter productive.

Not that i know much about forums,  but to me The means you use I do not think fit well with this forum,  and the internet could probably best serve you elsewhere

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2017, 02:42:30 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

Your opinions are all stupid, every single one of them.  None of your thoughts has even a scintilla of truth and reason, not a single one.  Everything you say is wrong.  Everything you think is wrong.  It is likely that your real-life actions are also wrong.  Everything about you reflects severe delusion, a delusion you appear to be madly in love with, a delusion you want to couple with, a delusion whose children you want to bring into the world so that you are not alone.  You are most to be pitied.
Lol. A genius has appeared. To even finish reading what you wrote is to waste time

But you did finish reading it. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2017, 02:46:38 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

Your opinions are all stupid, every single one of them.  None of your thoughts has even a scintilla of truth and reason, not a single one.  Everything you say is wrong.  Everything you think is wrong.  It is likely that your real-life actions are also wrong.  Everything about you reflects severe delusion, a delusion you appear to be madly in love with, a delusion you want to couple with, a delusion whose children you want to bring into the world so that you are not alone.  You are most to be pitied.
Lol. A genius has appeared. To even finish reading what you wrote is to waste time

But you did finish reading it.
I did unfortunately. Never again
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2017, 03:43:38 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

Your opinions are all stupid, every single one of them.  None of your thoughts has even a scintilla of truth and reason, not a single one.  Everything you say is wrong.  Everything you think is wrong.  It is likely that your real-life actions are also wrong.  Everything about you reflects severe delusion, a delusion you appear to be madly in love with, a delusion you want to couple with, a delusion whose children you want to bring into the world so that you are not alone.  You are most to be pitied.
Lol. A genius has appeared. To even finish reading what you wrote is to waste time

But you did finish reading it.
I did unfortunately. Never again

Wow, you're so cool and ahead of the curve on everything. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2017, 07:36:57 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2017, 07:40:59 PM »
... just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades.
It seems that Nietzsche's Über Mann is especially appealing to the unter mensch, ubiquitously so.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 07:41:15 PM by Sharbel »
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2017, 08:57:45 PM »
Can any one confirm, ANYWAYS, if my ideas are correct? This is how I've come to understand it from an Orthodox perspective. I don't want to be accidentally heterodox.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2017, 09:35:56 PM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2017, 09:55:30 PM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.

Isn't learning about the Faith part of the personal journey to the Kingdom? Obviously not all of it (can't forget the prayer, fasting, and charity!), but an important part nonetheless?

I just want to be clarified that I hold the Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife.
"I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2017, 01:07:19 AM »
Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me. And that's not because I'm righteous or strong in faith. It's because your posts are dross. They're mostly weak regurgitations of stuff we've all heard before, or maybe even spouted in the past.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.

He's a nihilist.  He believes in nothing:

(Another snippet from the Big Lebowski)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5J_kao6mwA
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2017, 03:34:22 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2017, 03:36:27 AM »
Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me. And that's not because I'm righteous or strong in faith. It's because your posts are dross. They're mostly weak regurgitations of stuff we've all heard before, or maybe even spouted in the past.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.

He's a nihilist.  He believes in nothing:

(Another snippet from the Big Lebowski)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5J_kao6mwA
Everything That doesnt affirm or adapt to your sadistic ideology is nihilistic. It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2017, 07:04:35 AM »
Beneath the noise you're still a Calvinist.
Quote
Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2017, 07:30:36 AM »
Beneath the noise you're still a Calvinist.
And beneath the noise of all talk about turning the other cheek and loving your neighbour the majority of you guys are great haters
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 07:30:57 AM by beebert »
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2017, 08:06:23 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2017, 08:29:52 AM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.

Isn't learning about the Faith part of the personal journey to the Kingdom? Obviously not all of it (can't forget the prayer, fasting, and charity!), but an important part nonetheless?

I just want to be clarified that I hold the Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife.
You can't know everything perfectly, but i believe humility and love for Christ overcome all wrong opinions, as long as you are in the Church.




Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2017, 08:32:09 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

Can't you say "I" instead of "we" in a case like this for a change?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2017, 08:36:23 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

Can't you say "I" instead of "we" in a case like this for a change?

If you expect the other Orthodox on here to say something different, you'll be waiting a long time. This is not a matter of opinion.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2017, 08:41:50 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2017, 08:44:20 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

You sound like a five-year-old having a tantrum over a house rule. Pipe down, breathe, and then we might talk, if you are ever willing to listen. We've wasted enough time on your rants already.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2017, 10:08:08 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

Dr.  Jung called,  he said he wanted his psychology book back by Tuesday.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2017, 12:39:34 PM »
Beneath the noise you're still a Calvinist.
And beneath the noise of all talk about turning the other cheek and loving your neighbour the majority of you guys are great haters

Sometimes love requires administering beatings. 

I am full of love.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2017, 04:11:53 PM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2017, 04:33:02 PM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2017, 06:18:10 PM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2017, 06:20:49 PM »
The expectation of"coherence" and  "making sense" is a clear mark of the enduring Western Captivity.
Quote
Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2017, 06:23:01 PM »
The expectation of"coherence" and  "making sense" is a clear mark of the enduring Western Captivity.

We are hopelessly modernised, aren't we?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2017, 07:00:00 PM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.

Isn't learning about the Faith part of the personal journey to the Kingdom? Obviously not all of it (can't forget the prayer, fasting, and charity!), but an important part nonetheless?

I just want to be clarified that I hold the Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife.

The Orthodox understanding of the afterlife is that if you build up the Kingdom of heaven in your heart, you will be in the Kingdom of Heaven after you depart.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2017, 07:07:56 PM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2017, 07:08:40 PM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.

Isn't learning about the Faith part of the personal journey to the Kingdom? Obviously not all of it (can't forget the prayer, fasting, and charity!), but an important part nonetheless?

I just want to be clarified that I hold the Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife.

The Orthodox understanding of the afterlife is that if you build up the Kingdom of heaven in your heart, you will be in the Kingdom of Heaven after you depart.
Witty indeed!
There's also "If you die before you die, then when you die you won't die".
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Only one person who is prayerfully connected to God is needed, and we will have peace everywhere -- in the family, at work, in the government, and everywhere.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2017, 07:39:36 PM »
 :)

I don't mean to be witty, but these discussions of the afterlife, will benefit no one really.  The main issue is to be vigilant in your faith.  Believe there's an afterlife, believe that there is spiritual growth now that affects what will happen in the afterlife, but other than that, "neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart can contemplate"...so why both contemplate?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2017, 03:01:43 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2017, 03:03:28 AM »
You’ll never be accidentally heterodox if you simply take no views on the matter, and concentrate on your own personal journey to the Kingdom as well as the journey of those beloved around you.

Isn't learning about the Faith part of the personal journey to the Kingdom? Obviously not all of it (can't forget the prayer, fasting, and charity!), but an important part nonetheless?

I just want to be clarified that I hold the Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife.

The Orthodox understanding of the afterlife is that if you build up the Kingdom of heaven in your heart, you will be in the Kingdom of Heaven after you depart.
Talk about being selfish
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2017, 03:04:20 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:04:38 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 05:23:37 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it either. Go! :)
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2017, 06:24:55 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it either. Go! :)
Are you six?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2017, 06:26:21 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it either. Go! :)
Are you six?

Can you?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2017, 06:37:20 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it either. Go! :)
Are you six?

Can you?
With most six-year-olds I would have to really explain what nihilism is. The Chance they would understand might be greater than with you guys Though, since you have a completely wrong understanding of nihilism to begin with. Regarding mentioning christianity and the cross to a Child; I am not sure I would be willing to commit such a crime and speak about such a dangerous ideology.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 06:37:54 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2017, 06:42:26 AM »
It is one of the favorite Words you Christians use; but I am sure, you guys are more nihilistic than I am

We believe in plenty of things, thanks.

And true nihilism is a state of mind or heart, not what kind of things you "believe" in. Most of you are the ones who need to believe in all those weird things in order to feel that life has a "purpose", in order for life not to be completely rotten, meaningless or evil. Hence, the majority of you are beneath the surface the true nihilists. Because most of you need something beyond what you experience in everyday life in order to feel that life has a meaning.
Dostoevsky was it who said that everything is permitted without a God huh? A typical christian would say something like that. What it really means is that the one who thinks a God is needed for there to be any meaning to anything is the true nihilist. Anyone who searches for a beyond, for signs and wonders...

And what does your cross really mean? I tell you; most of you have despaired over the fact that you can not will back in time; what has happened has happened. You can't accept your past, you can't move forward, so you need something that eliminates the past, something that eliminates you feeling of "hopelessness", in other words, something that helps you in you pathetic weakness. And what is the solution? A cross! A cross over your past, a miracle to believe in, and suddenly, the future is possible, you can finally will forward instead of backwards.

What are you even talking about?

If you dont understand, then it is certainly your problem

Expressing yourself coherently, also known as 'making sense', is your responsibility.
Your unintelligence and lack of ability to understand is not my problem.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, then you don't understand it either. Go! :)
Are you six?

Can you?
With most six-year-olds I would have to really explain what nihilism is. The Chance they would understand might be greater than with you guys Though, since you have a completely wrong understanding of nihilism to begin with. Regarding mentioning christianity and the cross to a Child; I am not sure I would be willing to commit such a crime and speak about such a dangerous ideology.

In short, and unsurprisingly, you can't.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2017, 07:44:40 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.

How was St. John failed?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2017, 07:47:38 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.

How was St. John failed?
From what I have read by him he was sadistic and therefore evil
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2017, 07:51:58 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.

How was St. John failed?
From what I have read by him he was sadistic and therefore evil

Prove it. That's a pretty serious accusation.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2017, 08:12:56 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.

How was St. John failed?
From what I have read by him he was sadistic and therefore evil

Prove it. That's a pretty serious accusation.
An accusation he loved to give to the jews. Anyway:

“(Hell) It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed.”
 (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)

“For when you hear of fire, do not suppose the fire in that world to be like this: for fire in this world burns up and makes away with anything which it takes hold of; but that fire is continually burning those who have once been seized by it, and never ceases: therefore also is it called unquenchable. For those also who have sinned must put on immortality, not for honor, but to have a constant supply of material for that punishment to work upon; and how terrible this is, speech could never depict, but from the experience of little things it is possible to form some slight notion of these great ones. For if you should ever be in a bath which has been heated more than it ought to be, think then, I pray you, on the fire of hell: or again if you are ever inflamed by some severe fever transfer your thoughts to that flame, and then you will be able clearly to discern the difference. For if a bath and a fever so afflict and distress us, what will our condition be when we have fallen into that river of fire which winds in front of the terrible judgment-seat. Then we shall gnash our teeth under the suffering of our labors and intolerable pains: but there will be no one to succor us: yea we shall groan mightily, as the flame is applied more severely to us, but we shall see no one save those who are being punished with us, and great desolation. And how should any one describe the terrors arising to our souls from the darkness? For just as that fire has no consuming power so neither has it any power of giving light: for otherwise there would not be darkness. The dismay produced in us then by this, and the trembling and the great astonishment can be sufficiently realized in that day only. For in that world many and various kinds of torment and torrents of punishment are poured in upon the soul from every side. And if any one should ask, and how can the soul bear up against such a multitude of punishments and continue being chastised through interminable ages, let him consider what happens in this world, how many have often borne up against a long and severe disease. And if they have died, this has happened not because the soul was consumed but because the body was exhausted, so that had the latter not broken down, the soul would not have ceased being tormented. When then we have received an incorruptible and inconsumable body there is nothing to prevent the punishment being indefinitely extended. For here indeed it is impossible that the two things should coexist. I mean severity of punishment and permanence of being, but the one contends with the other, because the nature of the body is perishable and cannot bear the concurrence of both: but when the imperishable state has supervened, there would be an end of this strife, and both these terrible things will keep their hold upon us for infinite time with much force. Let us not then so dispose ourselves now as if the excessive power of the tortures were destructive of the soul: for even the body will not be able to experience this at that time, but will abide together with the soul, in a state of eternal punishment, and there will not be any end to look to beyond this. How much luxury then, and how much time will you weigh in the balance against this punishment and vengeance? Do you propose a period of a hundred years or twice as long? And what is this compared with the endless ages? For what the dream of a single day is in the midst of a whole lifetime, that the enjoyment of things here is as contrasted with the state of things to come. Is there then any one who, for the sake of seeing a good dream, would elect to be perpetually punished? Who is so senseless as to have recourse to this kind of retribution?” (Ad Theod. 1.10)

What a sick bastard. He should have been locked up.

About jews. He was almost in the League of the nazis. It wouldnt surprise me if he would have been a nazi if he had lived in that time.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Indeed, an entire day would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their deception of the poor, their thievery, and their huckstering.

Are they not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil? Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!

Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end.

God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: “Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!” Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion.”
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2017, 09:26:18 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
Hoist by his own petard!

Beebs,

I hope that you look back on your contribution to this forum--in the not too distant future--and gain an appreciation for how ridiculous most of it has been. Believe what you want, an evangelist I am not, but your pubescent ranting is pretty annoying and utterly unconvincing.

You don't offend me, scare me, or teach me. And that's not because I'm righteous or strong in faith. It's because your posts are dross. They're mostly weak regurgitations of stuff we've all heard before, or maybe even spouted in the past.

It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.
+1
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2017, 09:39:00 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2017, 11:06:32 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting line a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:10:04 AM by William T »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2017, 11:10:29 AM »
Tell us about your mother, Beebert.
Quote
Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2017, 11:14:46 AM »
Tell us about your mother, Beebert.



"I was raised a poor black child"

Steve Martin (don't know why that made me think of  that)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:15:52 AM by William T »

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »
It's doubtful that you'll heed our wish that you leave these threads alone, but just imagine how silly it appears for you to project your so-called Nietzschean "strength" and "wisdom" in the form of shrill, witless tirades. There are better (or different) outlets/forums to direct your whining--please use them.

But again, I hope you come to see this. In the meantime, will you take your foot off the gas a bit and quit derailing threads? They get derailed enough as is. I hope you waste your time reading this, as you waste ours quite frequently.

He's a nihilist.  He believes in nothing:

(Another snippet from the Big Lebowski)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5J_kao6mwA

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude. At least its an ethos.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2017, 02:01:54 PM »

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting like a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.

Agreed in full, and I similarly have no idea how a forum deals with the angst. Let's just try to ignore him and let him grow up a bit. I suspect he'll hold his breath and stomp his feet for awhile, but perhaps that ends at some point.

Sorry, OP (if you're still around). You asked an interesting question, but this happened instead.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2017, 04:27:20 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2017, 06:02:58 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

None of what you said here is correct.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2017, 06:07:18 AM »
I changed my mind about hell. I am still somewhat hesitant to think of it as eternal, but I understand the reason why it exists. It's just cosmic justice. You puff yourself up, and the universe, God, nature, reality, whatever placeholder word you want to insert, will push you back down.

That's how the natural world works, it's how God works. I find nothing fundamentally problematic about it anymore.

"God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble." (St. James 4:6)
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2017, 06:13:55 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:14:40 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2017, 06:49:59 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:52:59 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2017, 08:29:00 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:29:15 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2017, 08:31:02 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2017, 08:47:01 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:48:35 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2017, 09:17:39 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2017, 09:22:29 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2017, 09:23:11 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in.

We don't believe in your Calvinist god. That's called "false teaming." And research shows that 90% of false teamers eat babies.
Quote
Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2017, 09:26:59 AM »
I changed my mind about hell. I am still somewhat hesitant to think of it as eternal, but I understand the reason why it exists. It's just cosmic justice. You puff yourself up, and the universe, God, nature, reality, whatever placeholder word you want to insert, will push you back down.

That's how the natural world works, it's how God works. I find nothing fundamentally problematic about it anymore.

That's a pretty bizarre, new-agey/ pantheistic way to look at it.
Quote
Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2017, 09:36:53 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.
Well perhaps you are one of those that causes others to go there.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2017, 09:38:03 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.
Well perhaps you are one of those that causes others to go there.

No one ever complains about the kind of body-breaking I do.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2017, 09:38:27 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.

All-too-often overlooked fact: The brain is part of the body.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2017, 09:39:14 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.

All-too-often overlooked fact: The brain is part of the body.

And you understood my point! 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2017, 09:40:25 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

My wicked religion has never put me in the hospital once.  Problems with my body have at times sent me there, however. 

Maybe your body is broken.

All-too-often overlooked fact: The brain is part of the body.

And you understood my point!

I think I've told beebs before - worrying yourself sick is a medical fact, not a figure of speech.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 09:40:51 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2017, 09:42:49 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?

Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2017, 09:44:17 AM »
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?

See the problem is that there is a maximum high temperature that hell could reach, and since it goes on for eternity, that means it is infinitely rising but never actually reaching that peak temp. Thus the truism: a watched cauldron never boils. Now we only use 10% of our brains, according to people who know nothing of physiology, so it stands to reason that if you were such a person in hell, like the frog in the proverbial pot, you wouldn't even realise how hot it was. But that frog thing is just an urban legend and untrue: thus proving that hell, also, is untrue! What I would strongly recommend is--no, not Fr. Seraphim--that you get yourself a cup of earl grey tea, sit down with a good book, put this song on in the background, and relax! :)

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2017, 09:56:24 AM »
Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
And what put him there was not Christianity, but his sin of not loving.  The same kind of sin that puts one in hell.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2017, 09:56:32 AM »
this song

Confession: I was really hoping ^that would be this.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 09:59:01 AM by Mor Ephrem »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2017, 09:58:15 AM »
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in.
How can what we believe in have to do with your being hospitalized?  Rather, you put yourself there by following your master, Nietzsche, who was fond of psychiatric hospitals.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2017, 09:59:20 AM »
People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.
You realize that, according to you, this statement makes you a loser, half man, half monkey, sadistic criminal against life and humanity and ungifted failure, don't you?
No because I dont believe and support it
Yes, because you believe and condemn others to suffer forever and ever.
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
So, you do not condemn believers to suffer forever and ever then, do you?
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2017, 10:01:39 AM »
1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer
Don't we sinners act in this very same way, resenting the goodness of God because of our wickedness and blaming our moral failures on His love for us, ever since... Eden?  Nay, in my decades on this earth I've come to the conclusion that this is the most plausible answer.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2017, 10:04:09 AM »
this song

Confession: I was really hoping ^that would be this.

Lol. I hear that song every other time I go to McDonalds now.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2017, 10:06:06 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?

Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
No he didnt. Do your reading.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2017, 10:08:59 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

Speaking as a professional who has a little bit of experience in this, you are not alone in psychiatric disease, but you are alone in your delusions of what causes it.  It is these delusions that make you keep going back, and not being realistic of the cause.  You reject Christianity now and curse it, but you will still go back, which means it is something else that is damaging you, not Christianity.

Your brain is like any other body part.  It could get physically damaged just as much someone with heart disease.  Physical damage of the brain can lead to psychological issues, and certain emotional or rational issues other people can handle you may not.  Like heart disease.  Some people can handle lifting weights, but it may hurt those with heart disease even more.  You are no different.  Your damage is from within you, not from Christianity, and you need to realize that in yourself, and take it easy.

I wanted to compare your mental issues to physical issues because the fact of the matter is we are all weak and prone to diseases within ourselves, and there is no shame in that other than to recognize it and to live a healthy life according to your own personal capabilities.

So, cheer up, there's hope for you.  But don't displace your anger and blame Christianity.  Blame nature, and overcome it with the help of your doctor.

God bless.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:09:55 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2017, 10:11:12 AM »
Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
And what put him there was not Christianity, but his sin of not loving.  The same kind of sin that puts one in hell.
You dont know that you hypocrite. Who are you to judge whether or not Nietzsche went there because of lack of love?  You evil man.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2017, 10:14:10 AM »
this song

Confession: I was really hoping ^that would be this.

Lol. I hear that song every other time I go to McDonalds now.

I wish I lived near you.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2017, 10:14:35 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?

Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
No he didnt. Do your reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Psychological_illness_and_death_.281889.E2.80.931900.29
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline WPM

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2017, 10:20:34 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

Speaking as a professional who has a little bit of experience in this, you are not alone in psychiatric disease, but you are alone in your delusions of what causes it.  It is these delusions that make you keep going back, and not being realistic of the cause.  You reject Christianity now and curse it, but you will still go back, which means it is something else that is damaging you, not Christianity.

Your brain is like any other body part.  It could get physically damaged just as much someone with heart disease.  Physical damage of the brain can lead to psychological issues, and certain emotional or rational issues other people can handle you may not.  Like heart disease.  Some people can handle lifting weights, but it may hurt those with heart disease even more.  You are no different.  Your damage is from within you, not from Christianity, and you need to realize that in yourself, and take it easy.

I wanted to compare your mental issues to physical issues because the fact of the matter is we are all weak and prone to diseases within ourselves, and there is no shame in that other than to recognize it and to live a healthy life according to your own personal capabilities.

So, cheer up, there's hope for you.  But don't displace your anger and blame Christianity.  Blame nature, and overcome it with the help of your doctor.

God bless.


No, I do not agree with you.
Learn meditation.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2017, 10:30:31 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?
He is an evil monster who has affected history in a negative way. And I care because I am not a nihilist.
The psychological reason for the early growth of christianity and why maniacs like Paul etc could get power is similar as with extreme feminism today. It starts with one who feeks a man is evil and suddenly all men are evil. Same with christianity. Just because you are a weak and pathetic sinner, everyone suddenly deserves to burn forever. Most Christians belong in mental asylums.

Are you saying people don't have responsibilities? That's all Christ said. "Be holy as I am holy." The whole sermon on the mount, and his excoriation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 all stem from the assumption that human beings have responsibilities toward God and toward the world. Hell is just the logical consequence of understanding responsibility. If you don't believe in responsibility, you'll end up in hell. Doing drugs, needless, self-inflicted suffering, pain, hatred and contempt. Hell is of your design, as St. Isaac of Syria says, and it's your choice whether you want to make the right choices in life or not. Nobody is forcing you.

That's what hell effectively is. It's not about psychological scarring, and it never was. Read St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians and you'll see that.
Where is the responsibility in the fact that about 40 percent of all people you meet at psychiatric hospitals are there because they have been so traumatized by Christian ideas that they can never recover?

Nietzsche killed himself in a mental hospital.
No he didnt. Do your reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Psychological_illness_and_death_.281889.E2.80.931900.29
Lol. Does it say he killed himself?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2017, 10:32:20 AM »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2017, 10:35:34 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Psychological_illness_and_death_.281889.E2.80.931900.29
Lol. Does it say he killed himself?

No, but what it does say isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the man.
That doesnt matter; what you think is unimportant. My reaction was against the ignorant belief that Nietzsche killed himself
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2017, 10:46:27 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Psychological_illness_and_death_.281889.E2.80.931900.29
Lol. Does it say he killed himself?

No, but what it does say isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the man.
That doesnt matter; what you think is unimportant. My reaction was against the ignorant belief that Nietzsche killed himself

Look, you criticised the apostles as greedy, condemned Christianity as a dangerous ideology, and claimed that central figures in the history of Christian thought (i.e., Chrysostom) were evil, so it's not like it's unfair for us to look at the Nietzsche you revere and consider whether he was any better.  And at the very least, he was no better than the apostles or Chrysostom.  But actually he was worse:

What a sick bastard. He should have been locked up.

You said that about Chrysostom, but it was literally true of Nietzsche.

You're here to tell us that if we follow psychotic ideologies and their proponents, we too will be psychotic and make others psychotic.  You are by far greater proof of that than anything we are capable of.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:47:44 AM by Mor Ephrem »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2017, 10:48:18 AM »
I wonder if anybody else has noticed the parallel between Nietzsche's death and Raskolnikov's dream in "Crime and Punishment."

Considering that Nietzsche's philosophy primarily consisted in believing that Christianity was simply an excuse to give power to weak individuals, and that the true natural progress of mankind is to revert to our animalistic instincts and cause harm to others, much of what Beebert is arguing in his sophistic ways......

and that Dostoevsky basically spent that entire novel attacking such a concept by showing the pain and suffering one is caused when they execute the power they have in an immoral manner - it drives them to insanity, and causes them to have PTSD over hugging abused horses.

That is, human beings are unique in the fact that we actually have, by nature, a conscience and a unique ability to see between what is morally right and morally wrong.

I tend to think that God doesn't work in mere arbitrary coincidences.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:54:08 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2017, 10:49:59 AM »
You dont know that you hypocrite. Who are you to judge whether or not Nietzsche went there because of lack of love?  You evil man.
Of course, I do, by reading Nietzsche.  His Über Mann is evil personified.  When he put one stripe of men above all others, he showed his hate for the human kind.  You want to know what hell is like?  Nietzsche's life.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:50:20 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2017, 11:09:25 AM »
You dont know that you hypocrite. Who are you to judge whether or not Nietzsche went there because of lack of love?  You evil man.
Of course, I do, by reading Nietzsche.  His Über Mann is evil personified.  When he put one stripe of men above all others, he showed his hate for the human kind.  You want to know what hell is like?  Nietzsche's life.
Just wanted to quickly throw in the remark that he really called it Übermensch, which literally translates as "overhuman", not Über Mann.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:10:11 AM by Lepanto »
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2017, 11:12:41 AM »
Just wanted to quickly throw in the remark that he really called it Übermensch, which literally translates as "overhuman", not Über Mann.
I of course never read him in German, but curiously Übermensch was typically rendered into singular forms, such as Super Man.  Thanks for jolting my memory correcting me.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:13:36 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2017, 11:16:11 AM »
Just wanted to quickly throw in the remark that he really called it Übermensch, which literally translates as "overhuman", not Über Mann.
I of course never read him in German, but curiously Übermensch was typically rendered into singular forms, such as Super Man.  Thanks for jolting my memory correcting me.

Übermensch is also a singular form. Anyway, I tried to read him in German but it is really no pleasure ....
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #125 on: October 17, 2017, 11:22:41 AM »
Just wanted to quickly throw in the remark that he really called it Übermensch, which literally translates as "overhuman", not Über Mann.
I of course never read him in German, but curiously Übermensch was typically rendered into singular forms, such as Super Man.  Thanks for jolting my memory correcting me.

Übermensch is also a singular form. Anyway, I tried to read him in German but it is really no pleasure ....

And the irony is too thick to breathe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch
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Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2017, 11:32:55 AM »
1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer
Don't we sinners act in this very same way, resenting the goodness of God because of our wickedness and blaming our moral failures on His love for us, ever since... Eden?  Nay, in my decades on this earth I've come to the conclusion that this is the most plausible answer.

More boring, pedantic, and smug things like pride, vanity, and vainglory take precedence over something like that from my experience

Offline William T

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2017, 11:37:30 AM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

S by your standards, you are an alcoholic walking into a saloon, that sounds like trouble.  By my assessment,  a saloon where the bartenders and patrons don't  want you there to begin with, and are annoyed by your conversion stories and teetotaling loud speeches that drown out any useful sounds. 

Either way this isn't good for you, by your own standards.  So, Marvin K. Mooney will you please go now.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:38:07 AM by William T »

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2017, 11:45:15 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.
It is not possible to explain to you anything, you are in a state of despondency. When this passion takes over, you completely lose control of yourself and are incapable of comprehending theological matters, from inside you are aggressively set to oppose everything that is related to God.

This state is usually caused by sloth toward christian virtue, and worldliness. Because the grace of God have withdrawn, you are entirely defenseless against the attacks of the demons, at this point no reasoning is helpful at all, even if someone is to give you all the correct answers you will still reject them and feel at enmity with God.

The only cure for your condition that i am aware of is complete repentance and confession in your mind and in your heart that you are wrong, you have to humble yourself and completely reject your errors, then commit yourself to set things right. It is a crucifixion of the ego and denial of your pride, when you do that, the demons will lose the right to "set/control your insides" and flee.

But let me give you an answer to your question anyway: You used the word "criminal", but if such thing as criminal exist, in all cultures throughout the world and throughout the ages, criminals are send to jail, and if there is a person who is persistent throughout his entire life in criminal acts and unrepentance, doesn't it seem fair that such will be thrown in jail and this decision will be with persistence and without change of mind ?

You see ? If you believe that criminals exist, in essence you are confessing the reality of Hell.

But let me get back on my point, my answer will not satisfy you in any way because of the state you find yourself in, for you no answer is possible regardless of how correct it is, to escape the state you find yourself in, you need is complete repentance of the mind and of the heart, confession/admission and humility.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:53:50 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2017, 11:51:24 AM »
If we all have lost our minds for Christ's sake, there is no talking sense to us. Christians should be fools in the world's eyes. I relish whenever someone says to be a Christian is madness. I'd rather go mad for Christ than conform to whatever stupidity the world deems as "wisdom". If beebert carried a lit lantern in daylight towards me and cried incessantly "Your religion is sick and a lie!", well if true I'd still much rather stay with Christ. There's nothing this world can offer as a sufficient alternative, it's all vanity.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2017, 11:56:20 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.
It is not possible to explain to you anything, you are in a state of despondency. When this passion takes over, you completely lose control of yourself and are incapable of comprehending theological matters, from inside you are aggressively set to oppose everything that is related to God.

This state is usually caused by sloth toward christian virtue, and worldliness. Because the grace of God have withdrawn, you are entirely defenseless against the attacks of the demons, at this point no reasoning is helpful at all, even if someone is to give you all the correct answers you will still reject them and feel at enmity with God.

The only cure for your condition that i am aware of is complete repentance and confession in your mind and in your heart that you are wrong, you have to humble yourself and completely reject your errors, then commit yourself to set things right. It is a crucifixion of the ego and denial of your pride, when you do that, the demons will lose the right to "set/control your insides" and flee.

But let me give you an answer to your question anyway: You used the word "criminal", but if such thing as criminal exist, in all cultures throughout the world and throughout the ages, criminals are send to jail, and if there is a person who is persistent throughout his entire life in criminal acts and unrepentance, doesn't it seem fair that such will be thrown in jail and this decision will be with persistence and without change of mind ?

You see ? If you believe that criminals exist, in essence you are confessing the reality of Hell.

But let me get back on my point, my answer will not satisfy you in any way because of the state you find yourself in, for you no answer is possible regardless of how correct it is, to escape the state you find yourself in, you need is complete repentance of the mind and of the heart, confession/admission and humility.
Good tactic trying to make me insecure. Stuff like this is what drove me crazy before, Christians trying to call you influenced by the devil etc. Hell exists, and christianity made it full of people. Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:56:35 AM by beebert »
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Offline biro

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2017, 11:59:45 AM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2017, 12:02:24 PM »
Hell exists, and christianity made it full of people.
I guess Sartre was right, Hell is other people.
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2017, 12:07:03 PM »
Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
You'd be surprised...
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2017, 12:14:20 PM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
No I go to a restaurant that claims to serve good - even the best - food, but that in reality serves poison.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
If we all have lost our minds for Christ's sake, there is no talking sense to us. Christians should be fools in the world's eyes. I relish whenever someone says to be a Christian is madness. I'd rather go mad for Christ than conform to whatever stupidity the world deems as "wisdom". If beebert carried a lit lantern in daylight towards me and cried incessantly "Your religion is sick and a lie!", well if true I'd still much rather stay with Christ. There's nothing this world can offer as a sufficient alternative, it's all vanity.
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2017, 12:19:49 PM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
No I go to a restaurant that claims to serve good - even the best - food, but that in reality serves poison.

You're one of the very few people the menu disagrees with. Consider that the problem may lie with you, not with the food or the other customers. Then stop patronising the establishment.
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2017, 12:32:35 PM »
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
You might say that but then I'd have to ask what isn't egoistic? If I wanted to keep my ego-centrism Christianity wouldn't be the religion for me.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »
So in reality, even being a Christian is based on egoistic reasons
You might say that but then I'd have to ask what isn't egoistic? If I wanted to keep my ego-centrism Christianity wouldn't be the religion for me.
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2017, 12:51:41 PM »
So why are you here?

Do you go to a Japanese restaurant and ask why they don't have Mexican food?
No I go to a restaurant that claims to serve good - even the best - food, but that in reality serves poison.

You're one of the very few people the menu disagrees with. Consider that the problem may lie with you, not with the food or the other customers. Then stop patronising the establishment.
Not sure. Many have realized the stupidity behind this religion; in other words; I am not the Only one who has been poisoned. But this poison is like drugs. Many get hooked.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #140 on: October 17, 2017, 12:56:55 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #141 on: October 17, 2017, 01:05:29 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
I do it not so much for his sake, but for the sake of lurkers.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2017, 01:07:57 PM »
Don't we sinners act in this very same way, resenting the goodness of God because of our wickedness and blaming our moral failures on His love for us, ever since... Eden?  Nay, in my decades on this earth I've come to the conclusion that this is the most plausible answer.

More boring, pedantic, and smug things like pride, vanity, and vainglory take precedence over something like that from my experience
I think that we agree, but don't all these passions boil down to our failure or unwillingness to trust and love God, propping our own selves up as rival gods or idols?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2017, 01:08:10 PM »
If we all have lost our minds for Christ's sake, there is no talking sense to us. Christians should be fools in the world's eyes. I relish whenever someone says to be a Christian is madness. I'd rather go mad for Christ than conform to whatever stupidity the world deems as "wisdom". If beebert carried a lit lantern in daylight towards me and cried incessantly "Your religion is sick and a lie!", well if true I'd still much rather stay with Christ. There's nothing this world can offer as a sufficient alternative, it's all vanity.
+1
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2017, 01:26:01 PM »
I'm not entirely certain why y'all bother arguing with beebert anymore. The dude is engaged in one of the longest masturbatory exercises of self-loathing I've seen on the internet. Just leave him to it.
I do it not so much for his sake, but for the sake of lurkers.

+1. We don't argue to change the minds of those who disagree, but to show those who silently agree that they are not alone.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline RobS

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #145 on: October 17, 2017, 01:36:37 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2017, 01:57:29 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline RobS

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #147 on: October 17, 2017, 02:23:01 PM »
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
I sympathize with you, there are definitely Christians that see its own religion as nothing more than a ticket to paradise, away from this worst of worlds. I find that view nihilistic but I'm not sure you can fault people who believe that especially if its a symptom from an oppressed creature as Marx put it.

Maybe we should be asking different questions. Why be a Christian, what is it about Christianity that is better? How can this change my life for the better? More meaningful, more joyful? You might think these questions are egoistic, but isn't it necessary to ask? My concerns are more life-affirming than they are life-denying, as if you need afterlife morphine. If I'm going to live, then I better have something worthwhile to live for. I sometimes wonder if Milbank is right that Christian theology is a hair's breath from nihilism.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:25:34 PM by RobS »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Mikem605

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2017, 04:52:11 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke

The main thing to question is the lies you tell yourself every time you affirm that time, space, and matter just happened brother.
Pride is a very horrible thing.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #149 on: October 17, 2017, 05:07:41 PM »
40%?  Anything from literature?  Research journals?  Or is this figure only a figment of your imagination?  Maybe 40% of your own personality is traumatized by Christian ideas?  Is 40% of your intellect damaged?  Where do you get 40%
I have been hospitalized twice because of the wicked religion you believe in. Once 12 months ago and Another time 8 months ago. And let me just say I was FAR from alone   here in have the problems I had. It was horrifying and insane and convinced me eventually about the harm this sick religion causes.
Say what you want about me not thinking  clearly, I say that the mind of you guys must be severely damaged, or you just want revenge.

Speaking as a professional who has a little bit of experience in this, you are not alone in psychiatric disease, but you are alone in your delusions of what causes it.  It is these delusions that make you keep going back, and not being realistic of the cause.  You reject Christianity now and curse it, but you will still go back, which means it is something else that is damaging you, not Christianity.

Your brain is like any other body part.  It could get physically damaged just as much someone with heart disease.  Physical damage of the brain can lead to psychological issues, and certain emotional or rational issues other people can handle you may not.  Like heart disease.  Some people can handle lifting weights, but it may hurt those with heart disease even more.  You are no different.  Your damage is from within you, not from Christianity, and you need to realize that in yourself, and take it easy.

I wanted to compare your mental issues to physical issues because the fact of the matter is we are all weak and prone to diseases within ourselves, and there is no shame in that other than to recognize it and to live a healthy life according to your own personal capabilities.

So, cheer up, there's hope for you.  But don't displace your anger and blame Christianity.  Blame nature, and overcome it with the help of your doctor.

God bless.


No, I do not agree with you.

No, I do not agree that you do not agree with me.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2017, 05:20:38 PM »
Not so sure about that... Heaven, paradise, vengeance on all your enemies, punishment for all who opposes your beliefs, Eternal bliss for you, suffering for those who disagree... Sounds like the perfect life choice for a selfish man IMO
None of that has any bearing as to why I'm a Christian. I didn't become a Christian because God is dangling some afterlife prize nor to see my enemies in eternal torment. God will do whatever He pleases, I'm not going to concern myself with what happens after. There are more important concerns than these kind of speculations. I'm more worried I don't love God and neighbor enough. Am I living the Gospel? The more I try to become like Christ, the more I become truly human. Modern Orthodox theologians focus a lot on the divinization part of theosis, but I feel what gets left out is how it humanizes the person in faith. I don't think there is life outside the Gospel, even Christ says that Himself. He also wants to give us life abundantly.

So no, there is no afterlife wishes here. It's the only way to live, a much better way at that.
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke

The main thing to question is the lies you tell yourself every time you affirm that time, space, and matter just happened brother.
Pride is a very horrible thing.
Hey, what on earth does that have ANYTHING to do with what I said? And where did I say things just happened?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:23:40 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2017, 05:21:47 PM »
Okay that is Good. I can respect that. Because it is the afterlife-Wiehes and the intense focus on it that make me want to puke
I sympathize with you, there are definitely Christians that see its own religion as nothing more than a ticket to paradise, away from this worst of worlds. I find that view nihilistic but I'm not sure you can fault people who believe that especially if its a symptom from an oppressed creature as Marx put it.

Maybe we should be asking different questions. Why be a Christian, what is it about Christianity that is better? How can this change my life for the better? More meaningful, more joyful? You might think these questions are egoistic, but isn't it necessary to ask? My concerns are more life-affirming than they are life-denying, as if you need afterlife morphine. If I'm going to live, then I better have something worthwhile to live for. I sometimes wonder if Milbank is right that Christian theology is a hair's breath from nihilism.
I Would say that Milbank would be right if you/he took away the words "a hair's breath from"
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:24:52 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #152 on: October 18, 2017, 05:12:27 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2017, 11:00:38 PM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting line a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.

I think it's simple. Beebert suffers from a personality disturbance with delusions of grandeur, and he's here to dazzle us as a new Anti-messiah. He's spoken of himself as discovering a new religion, and as a new Nietzsche. He uses our forum and probably others as a proving-ground of his grandiose gifts before unveiling them to the world. In this regard perhaps he's a severe case of that of which a few other posters are a mild. Regardless, that his case involves some blasphemous and very repugnant promotions sets it apart and invites the abhorrence it receives here. Mounting a blander conquest of us would probably just invite the routine ridicule.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2017, 04:04:14 AM »
Beebert, if you're atheist, what do you care about Jewish people?

Also, you don't believe in Hell.

Also, you're obsessed with it.

If you're not Orthodox, what is St. John to you?

To play the pop psychology game with beerbert here are my guesses:

1: he is acting as a scorned lover.  This is the most interesting,  but least plausible answer

2. He is acting like a teenager who messes up the bedroom because his parents couldn't answer his "deep philosophical" question about why to keep his room clean, do his homework,  and take a bath (and what's a clean room or bath matter with all the starving kids in China and my own authentic morals)

3.  He's acting line a teenager on this forum because he needs attention and doesn't care how counter productive his methods are.  He is impervious to all feedback as he is the true Christian,  true humanist,  and true Scotsman.


Anyway I have no idea how a forum can deal with teenage angst,  alienation,  drama and things like that... especially when it's couched in religion or philosophy.   Really he ought be ignored.

I think it's simple. Beebert suffers from a personality disturbance with delusions of grandeur, and he's here to dazzle us as a new Anti-messiah. He's spoken of himself as discovering a new religion, and as a new Nietzsche. He uses our forum and probably others as a proving-ground of his grandiose gifts before unveiling them to the world. In this regard perhaps he's a severe case of that of which a few other posters are a mild. Regardless, that his case involves some blasphemous and very repugnant promotions sets it apart and invites the abhorrence it receives here. Mounting a blander conquest of us would probably just invite the routine ridicule.
I like the grandiose thoughts of Paul the Chosen One and Jesus the Son of God. Actually when thinking about it I must be a Christian now when thinking about them and their discovering of a new religion.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #155 on: October 19, 2017, 04:06:32 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2017, 04:22:01 AM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

The people who started venerating St John immediately after his repose clearly believed he was a saint, and the Church confirmed said veneration.

Regarding his homilies against Jews, perspective - get some.

As for hell, get comfy, this will take a while: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/what-is-orthodox-hell/
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2017, 12:06:00 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #158 on: October 19, 2017, 01:22:09 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Anyway, I was sure Christianity was false for various reasons too, and I changed my mind. There's no real way to perfectly determine the "truth" of any proposition. That's why we need a pragmatic approach to reality, rather than going around trying to expose, dismantle and destroy any system we find lacking in some way. I mean that's exactly why the Soviet Union was such a hellhole. Don't replace the noble virtues of the philosophers and the theologians with the perceived noble virtues (though I would argue selfish and pretentious) of dismantling any perceived oppressive or false system. That will just leave you bitter, hateful and destructive.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 01:23:54 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Mikem605

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2017, 12:54:08 PM »
Anyway; I can Tell you; I am 97 percent sure that christianity is based on a lie

I love statistics.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Anyway, I was sure Christianity was false for various reasons too, and I changed my mind. There's no real way to perfectly determine the "truth" of any proposition. That's why we need a pragmatic approach to reality, rather than going around trying to expose, dismantle and destroy any system we find lacking in some way. I mean that's exactly why the Soviet Union was such a hellhole. Don't replace the noble virtues of the philosophers and the theologians with the perceived noble virtues (though I would argue selfish and pretentious) of dismantling any perceived oppressive or false system. That will just leave you bitter, hateful and destructive.

I think he's doing what every other new atheist does. Takes everything out of context, especially the theological, historical, and philosophical of the verse. Weather it be scripture, patristics, or any of the sort. He doesn't want the Trinity to exist because that'll mean his overreaction to mental problems that he created himself would be wrong. Pride in a nutshell.
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved." ~ Seraphim of Sarov

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2017, 11:12:24 PM »
I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man  is preview enough to fear it. Still we can pray for the rich man.
Would the rich man want that? And would God want that?
God said He is of the living not the dead; the rich man is earthly departed but living ( Matthew 22:32). St. Paul preaches to pray for all (1Timothy2:1)I think the rich man would appreciate prayer for himself and his 5 brothers unless they heard the Gospel. I know this is a aparable.
So if God wants it and is all-powerful, and if the rich man wants it, then why not just release him from hell?

Who says the Rich Man wanted it? He wanted out of Hell, sure, but did he just want to get out while still holding onto his pride, contempt for Lazarus, etc? Why should God let him have his cake and eat it, too? To paraphrase Finney--Jesus came to save His people from their sins, not in their sins.

Or, in other words, would you want to share some eternal plane with an unrepentant, ranting, assaulting Hitler? To me that sounds pretty Hellish in and of itself, especially if you're one of the people that Hitler hated.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:13:16 PM by Volnutt »
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2017, 11:25:55 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.

My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:26:22 PM by Volnutt »
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Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline WPM

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2017, 01:16:09 AM »
What are the "Jews" supposed to be? Because I don't know.
Learn meditation.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #163 on: October 22, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »
What are the "Jews" supposed to be? Because I don't know.

You can find pictures of Jews here, here, here and here. These all seem like fine people to me (especially the last one).

Offline Mikem605

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.



My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."

I'll have to refute your last point. I think everyone has every right to be skeptical of people telling us that we're all going to be under water in 50 years. Especially since weather or not we are effecting the global temperature like they say we are is still being debated. But anyway back to the topic.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2017, 10:49:29 PM »
No that is what you guys and your God, his son and his greedy apostles are experts on. Not to speak about failed men like John Chrysostom, Tertullian etc.
If you ever manage to shake off this diabolical delusion of yours, remember to add this idiotic comment to your confession list.



My advice for you is to restrain yourself from posting as you are unable to discern the truth, your ability to reason is distorted by extreme pride, self-love and egotism.

Posting on theological matters in your condition is more dangerious than drinking and driving.
Oh my... Can't you come up with something on your own than the standard mediocre reply of a half-hearted Christian? Instead; explain the quotes from John Chrysostom and tell me why he should be regarded as anything else than a criminal.

beebert,

Your moral grandstanding is unimpressive. Let me be clear, I see no substance in your contribution in this thread.You can call me "selfish", "egoistic", "wrong", & "half-hearted", "stupid", "nihilistic", "hypocritical" for believing in this religion, all you want but in the end of the day, I'll continue to regard your judgments as worthless & of no value.
I am Only going to ask you for one thing which you are free to ignore: Can you explain John Chrysoston's hatred against jews and tell me what is so saintly about him? With that and his gastly vision of hell in consideration

Things that were/are saintly about St. John-

His writings on poverty and care for the poor
His confrontation of the Empress for the same, which resulted in his suffering and exile
His renowned pastoral care
His insightful Biblical commentary

Even if he was wrong about Hell, he was only trying to warn people about a coming reality that he sincerely believed in and wished to rescue them from. Global warming deniers might as well say that climatologists are sadists for trying to warn people about global warming (not saying that disbelief in Hell is as bad as global warming denial).

I'm terribly sorry that you've had a bad experience at the hands of some theologies, I have as well. But please believe me that not every Christian who believes these things does so out of sadism.

On the Jews, see the wiki article. To me it's no more or less moral than modern political speeches and certainly not deserving to be called "criminal."

I'll have to refute your last point. I think everyone has every right to be skeptical of people telling us that we're all going to be under water in 50 years. Especially since weather or not we are effecting the global temperature like they say we are is still being debated. But anyway back to the topic.

That's a strawman. Venice will be underwater, sure. Bangladesh, likely. Miami, possibly. Not everybody on the planet, though.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #166 on: October 25, 2017, 10:32:43 PM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

"After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting."

People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

You must see the irony of this.

Even if you imagine God a trickster, an outright deceiver. A psychopath, even. If God is a psychopath, what is the moral to the story? If God is a psychopath, there is no moral to the story, so why the pretense?

Correct.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:50:35 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #167 on: October 27, 2017, 02:37:50 PM »
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, i advice you to avoid heterodox sources of information.

To your question - This is how i understand it:

Prior to the day of judgement there are two places, one of bliss - where the souls of the God pleasing people who died are stored and another place which is God's prison, for the bad guys.
When you die, you are examined and depending on what state you are found, you can end up in either places. If you end up in God's prison, this is not final, it is possible to still escape by the intercession of God's saints and those who are still alive.

After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting.

"After the day of resurrection, there will be a final judgement. God's people will inherit heaven, this heaven is everlasting. Those who have united themselves with the devil will inherit Hell forever, this hell is final and everlasting."

People who believe and support this, these losers, half men half monkeys, these sadistic criminals and ungifted failures are certainly the ones who truly deserve to suffer forever and ever.

You must see the irony of this.

Even if you imagine God a trickster, an outright deceiver. A psychopath, even. If God is a psychopath, what is the moral to the story? If God is a psychopath, there is no moral to the story, so why the pretense?

Correct.

Yes, how could a part comprise a quality (moral judgement) not in the whole? But you have to remember that Beebert as a Nietzschean fancies himself his own creator and a rival to God.
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Offline youssef

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2017, 04:25:22 AM »
Met Georges Khodr: Man, not God, Created Hell

The Heart is God's Dwelling-Place

What does it mean for us to gather together and perform the divine sacrifice for the soul of a brother of ours who has gone on to God's mercy? What we know about death from the New Testament is that God recompenses each according to his deeds and that one's eternal fate is tied to his actions. What I would like to draw attention to in the saying "Man's actions follow him and God recompenses each according to his deeds" is that it does not mean that God keeps an account, a record in heaven in which man's deeds are accounted to him, whether good or bad. Rather, it is a calling to good work.

The blessed saying that God recompenses each according to his deeds (Romans 5:2-6 and Revelation 22:12) mean that man is purified by his deeds. If you love the Lord and your neighbor and you do good to him, pay attention to him, distract him from his sorrow and distress, are there for him in all situations, and are humble, then your works purify you. It is not that God reckons them. They purify you and lift you up to Him. It is not an issue of recompense or punishment. God does not take revenge and He is not pleased to see people being punished in hell.

The truth that has been declared to us is that God draws man to Himself and that man also approaches God through obedience. Man sees himself loving God and he sees God loving him and it is all love. One who loves is drawn to the face of God. One who does not love goes away from the face of God and remains in his darkness. It is not that God casts anyone into the outer darkness. It is not that God created hell: God did not create hell. Man created hell for himself and he torments himself in his sins. There is no sin that does not bear its own punishment.

God does not punish. Man hates and the hate itself is a torment. Man is not cast into hell haphazardly and arbitrarily, but rather brings hell to himself. It is cast into him and he is not cast into it. Man puts himself in darkness because he does not love, because he does not purify himself. If he loves, he places heaven within himself. Man does not go and come. He does not rise and fall. Man is here in this human heart. He brings God to his heart or he fills it with evil. He rejoices at virtue and it elevates him and makes him beautiful.

If God dwells in the human heart-- that is, if virtue dwells within it-- then it is a heaven. And if we understand that if sin dwells within the human heart and rends it, it becomes a hell, then we have understood everything. There is nothing in this world apart from God. If you love Him, then you are with Him and you are in Him and He is in you. If you love your lust and your sin and you hate people, then you are in hell and hell is in you. You are with the devil and the devil is attached to you and you are far from the face of God because you shrink from Him and because you anger Him with your deeds.

Do not think that a person loves God because he talks about Him and because he prays. This is not the criterion. The criterion is someone loves God if he obeys His commandments and is obedient to his brothers. Prayer, the holy mysteries, fasts and spiritual efforts are all only necessary means for us to arrive at the spiritual beauty within us, which is God's dwelling there.

We gather together in the Divine Liturgy because of our faith that the divine love that was poured out  on the cross is poured out in the Divine Liturgy, which is the celebration of the cross that was completed on Golgotha and the celebration of the Resurrection.

http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.fr/2017/10/met-georges-khodr-man-not-god-created.html?m=1

Offline Ant

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Re: Hell eternal?
« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2017, 06:41:47 PM »
Thank you very much for that, youssef. Great read! I've thought for quite some time now that we essentially send ourselves to hell by sinning and it's not God hurling us into a lake of fire. Even St. Isaac tells us that hell is the fruit of sin.

That said, I think the confusion for me lies in the word "eternal." I don't know if eternal truly means eternal - as in, without end - or if it has an entirely different meaning. For instance, in Jonah 2:6 it says:

6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
    the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
    brought my life up from the pit.


So Jonah tells us that he was barred in forever, but then the Lord brought him up from the pit? How then is that forever? I honestly don't get it.