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Author Topic: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers  (Read 27562 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #225 on: November 29, 2011, 08:44:09 PM »

Hi,

This is my first post since joining this site.

This is a topic that interests me deeply, because it is part of the reason why I am moving away from my anglican faith, and towards an orthodox one.

At some point feminists managed to get further and further within the faith, I'm sure starting at being laity/deacons, and pushing for greater and greater change so that they could shape the church in their own image by having female clergy.

I'm all for female involvement within the church to a point, but it can be a slippery slope allowing females with a hidden agenda to get their hooks into the faith.

Take for example how feminists have managed to influence changes to the various english bibles.

I am very much concerned that Christianity is slowly being altered to suit various groups not just feminists.

Regards.

I have a negative reaction to your post.  Is your reason for being interested in the Orthodox Church by default because it does not havea female priesthood?  Do you know the history of women's involvement in the Orthodox Church starting with the ordination of deaconnesses?

Hi,

Thank you for you reply.

As I said it's 'part of the reason', and yes I am quite aware of their involvement.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:51:26 PM by Foxy » Logged
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« Reply #226 on: November 29, 2011, 08:44:26 PM »

Question: if a mantilla is needed, is it required to be over the top of the head, or over the eyes as well? Not to be silly, but I wouldn't want to bump into anything.
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« Reply #227 on: November 30, 2011, 07:01:58 AM »

I believe that it has been the tradition not to have them for many centuries.  I am sure there was a good reason for the practice to fall out of favor. Interestingly, the only churches to currently use them are heretical.  May as well follow their lead.  We did on the calendar.

To my knowledge, female deacons serve in the Church of Greece and the Russian Orthodox Church to this day, though in very small numbers. At one point, I think they did die out, but have been revived. Even if I am mistaken and that is not the case, your noting that "the only churches to...use them are heretical" equivocates a female diaconate with heresy, which it very plainly is not, since it has been and is an Orthodox practice, and your mention of the calendar is a non sequitur, the calendar has nothing to do with anything we're discussing.


Hi,

This is my first post since joining this site.

This is a topic that interests me deeply, because it is part of the reason why I am moving away from my anglican faith, and towards an orthodox one.

At some point feminists managed to get further and further within the faith, I'm sure starting at being laity/deacons, and pushing for greater and greater change so that they could shape the church in their own image by having female clergy.

I'm all for female involvement within the church to a point, but it can be a slippery slope allowing females with a hidden agenda to get their hooks into the faith.

Take for example how feminists have managed to influence changes to the various english bibles.

I am very much concerned that Christianity is slowly being altered to suit various groups not just feminists.

Regards.

Feminism, I believe, has done damage to Protestant groups. Many modernist ideas have crept in for them. This is what happens when you lose sight of Sacred Tradition and are unrooted from any grounding of truth.

I'd be interested to hear your other reasons for looking into Orthodoxy, as there are many other Christian groups that disallow female ministers/pastors/priests. Perhaps in another thread? Also...welcome to the Boards! Grin
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« Reply #228 on: November 30, 2011, 11:21:07 AM »

Hi,

This is my first post since joining this site.

This is a topic that interests me deeply, because it is part of the reason why I am moving away from my anglican faith, and towards an orthodox one.

At some point feminists managed to get further and further within the faith, I'm sure starting at being laity/deacons, and pushing for greater and greater change so that they could shape the church in their own image by having female clergy.

I'm all for female involvement within the church to a point, but it can be a slippery slope allowing females with a hidden agenda to get their hooks into the faith.

Take for example how feminists have managed to influence changes to the various english bibles.

I am very much concerned that Christianity is slowly being altered to suit various groups not just feminists.

Regards.

Feminism, I believe, has done damage to Protestant groups. Many modernist ideas have crept in for them. This is what happens when you lose sight of Sacred Tradition and are unrooted from any grounding of truth.

I'd be interested to hear your other reasons for looking into Orthodoxy, as there are many other Christian groups that disallow female ministers/pastors/priests. Perhaps in another thread? Also...welcome to the Boards! Grin

Hi and thank you for the welcome.

I think that it isn't hard to see from the outside what feminism has done to many protestant groups. With all of the changes both bishops, and priests alike have left along with their congregations.

When I first started looking at religion I would be around 10 as neither of my parents at that time attended church let alone spoke about faith issues or God. I looked at various churches and faiths including Christianity, Islam and even Judaism, but found more truth in Christianity.

We had 2 churches near where we lived one protestant, one RC, and I attended both to see what they were about. I was more welcomed in the protestant church than the RC so stuck with them. Over the years I have seen women wanting to do more and more in the church, and on face value it seems harmless, but one of the deaconesses was a family friend and she said that after spending 3 years training to be clergy what she saw made her rethink the whole idea of women priests.

They were more interested in feminist ideals, and in many cases lesbianism than doing Gods work.  A lot of this is now coming through in their actions within the church, and this is many peoples main concern, but also the fact that it goes against how Jesus set up his ministry with a male only clergy.

I have attended several masses with a female priest, and very much had an open mind, but I didn't feel God or Jesus there to be honest. They were simply performing a ritual rather than taking a mass. If you understand what I mean.

I feel that God has abandoned the protestant church now as many others have seem to also sensed.

As for why I am looking at Orthodox. I have always had a deep respect for the Orthodox church as it is the only one which has stayed the most faithful to the early church that Jesus and the apostles established.  It's a more faithful message.

We didn't have an Orthodox church local to where I live so when I left my church I have been in a sort of spiritual wilderness, and not attended any church except for weddings, funerals, Christmas and Easter. Recently though, just a few years ago, one has grown in the next city to mine. They also have a once a month mass at my home city's cathedral. So I have been in contact with the Father there, and I am going to see him in a couple of weeks to talk about my reasons for wanting to attend his Church. Interestingly he used to be an anglican catholic priest, and left because of the exact same reasons that I have outlined.

Part of my other reasons are how they have changed the bible, and are continuing to do so. By doing that they are changing the original message. I agree that if an older, verified text is found then it should be used as a basis for possible change, but what they are doing is altering the meaning to suit their own rhetoric. Whatever that is.

Regards.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 11:24:41 AM by Foxy » Logged
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« Reply #229 on: November 30, 2011, 01:11:19 PM »

The leader of Eastern Orthodox Church is Jesus and Jesus can be spoken with through prayer and people can pray for anything including revitalizing this office with the mention to be for good use by the fullfillers of this position and by the Church. If Jesus will want this ,
Saint Mary is above angels and most men, because God notices everything and any good deed gets noticed above.


The Orthodox Church believes in in a Tri-une God.  We pray to God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the Orthodox Church we call the Mother of God, the Mother of God, the Theotokos in Greek and not St. Mary.  Which church do you come from?
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« Reply #230 on: December 01, 2011, 06:27:46 AM »

The leader of Eastern Orthodox Church is Jesus and Jesus can be spoken with through prayer and people can pray for anything including revitalizing this office with the mention to be for good use by the fullfillers of this position and by the Church. If Jesus will want this ,
Saint Mary is above angels and most men, because God notices everything and any good deed gets noticed above.


The Orthodox Church believes in in a Tri-une God.  We pray to God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the Orthodox Church we call the Mother of God, the Mother of God, the Theotokos in Greek and not St. Mary.  Which church do you come from?

I do find it interesting that pasadi used the phrase "St. Mary", as it is not a phrase used regularly by the Eastern Orthodox. Though, I will point out that it is common among Oriental Orthodox (as can be seen by those who post on this board) as well as Roman Catholics (particularly in Latin, Santa Maria, I don't think I've heard RCs say "St. Mary" in English, though).

I remark only to note that there's nothing explicitly wrong with saying "Saint Mary"...it's definitely true, just simply not a common piety for us EOs, who rather like "Mother of God", "Theotokos" or, if you're feeling particularly Slavic that day, "Bogoroditsa." Grin
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« Reply #231 on: December 01, 2011, 08:19:49 AM »

I remark only to note that there's nothing explicitly wrong with saying "Saint Mary"...it's definitely true, just simply not a common piety for us EOs, who rather like "Mother of God", "Theotokos" or, if you're feeling particularly Slavic that day, "Bogoroditsa." Grin

In Greek, Panagia (all-holy [f]) is the most commonly used. "Miter Theou" or "Theotokos" are only really used liturgically.
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« Reply #232 on: December 01, 2011, 05:47:23 PM »

The leader of Eastern Orthodox Church is Jesus and Jesus can be spoken with through prayer and people can pray for anything including revitalizing this office with the mention to be for good use by the fullfillers of this position and by the Church. If Jesus will want this ,
Saint Mary is above angels and most men, because God notices everything and any good deed gets noticed above.


The Orthodox Church believes in in a Tri-une God.  We pray to God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the Orthodox Church we call the Mother of God, the Mother of God, the Theotokos in Greek and not St. Mary.  Which church do you come from?

I do find it interesting that pasadi used the phrase "St. Mary", as it is not a phrase used regularly by the Eastern Orthodox. Though, I will point out that it is common among Oriental Orthodox (as can be seen by those who post on this board) as well as Roman Catholics (particularly in Latin, Santa Maria, I don't think I've heard RCs say "St. Mary" in English, though).

I remark only to note that there's nothing explicitly wrong with saying "Saint Mary"...it's definitely true, just simply not a common piety for us EOs, who rather like "Mother of God", "Theotokos" or, if you're feeling particularly Slavic that day, "Bogoroditsa." Grin
That's because you do not know that in pasadi's native tongue "Saint Mary" (Santa Marie) is the most common appellation used by the Orthodox. Along with "Lord's Mother" (Maica Domnului) and the "All -Pure" (Precista). So, yeah...
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« Reply #233 on: December 01, 2011, 05:49:21 PM »

Another thing not common for Orthodox folks is to call themselves "eastern orthodox".
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« Reply #234 on: December 01, 2011, 07:41:47 PM »

In Greek, Panagia (all-holy [f]) is the most commonly used. "Miter Theou" or "Theotokos" are only really used liturgically.

True. Actually, I rather like that, but it isn't the case with the Orthodox I speak to locally. We most often prefer "Theotokos" or "Mother of God." I rather like the RC style, "Blessed Virgin."

That's because you do not know that in pasadi's native tongue "Saint Mary" (Santa Marie) is the most common appellation used by the Orthodox. Along with "Lord's Mother" (Maica Domnului) and the "All -Pure" (Precista). So, yeah...

You're right. I wasn't even sure of pasadi's native tongue, which based on what you've given me here is Romanian (only a guess, forgive me if I'm wrong). I also didn't know those are the most common styles used for the Blessed Virgin in Romanian, so I learned something. Thank you!

Another thing not common for Orthodox folks is to call themselves "eastern orthodox".

True. I don't like it, but will use it to differ between "Eastern Orthodox" and "Oriental Orthodox" when I'm discussing both of them, as I did above, since "Chalcedonian" would include both RC and EO, and is therefore not specific enough in some instances.
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« Reply #235 on: November 26, 2013, 02:11:03 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQh7Ar8WreQ
another one female reader. wonder if tonsured
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« Reply #236 on: November 26, 2013, 02:52:48 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQh7Ar8WreQ
another one female reader. wonder if tonsured

She's so cute!!
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« Reply #237 on: November 26, 2013, 03:10:51 PM »


I agree with Mor ! Azn
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« Reply #238 on: November 26, 2013, 03:12:43 PM »

She's so heretic!
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« Reply #239 on: November 27, 2013, 09:26:25 AM »


Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?
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« Reply #240 on: November 27, 2013, 11:12:20 AM »

Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?

More than 4 people might pay attention to the reading?
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« Reply #241 on: November 27, 2013, 11:21:06 AM »

Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?

More than 4 people might pay attention to the reading?

To the reading or the reader?
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« Reply #242 on: November 27, 2013, 11:28:35 AM »

Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?

More than 4 people might pay attention to the reading?

To the reading or the reader?

Both would be beneficial, I think. This is not to say that it should be done: I don't know either way, because I don't know about all the rules and regulations and such, nor have I thought through all the consequences. I do think more people would pay attention to what was said though, and I also think if people thought "oh isn't she so cute" then even that would be beneficial, insofar as it might make attending services for some people more attractive or eventful or interesting or more "real to life". 
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« Reply #243 on: November 27, 2013, 11:37:27 AM »


Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?

IMO, there is no point beyond the cuteness factor.  There's no lack of ordained clerics to do the reading, nor does it appear impossible for an adult to read if the clerics could not do it.

I'll admit that this thought occurred to me as I watched the video (I've watched it several times because she's adorable!), and that caused me a bit of hesitation.  Then again, it's not a widespread custom AFAIK, maybe circumstances in the parish justified it (e.g., maybe she's very devout, wanted to do it, wouldn't take no for an answer, and obviously can scream loud if she's a brat).  Wink
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« Reply #244 on: November 27, 2013, 11:56:40 AM »


Agreed, but beyond that, what's the point of having a child reader?

IMO, there is no point beyond the cuteness factor.  There's no lack of ordained clerics to do the reading, nor does it appear impossible for an adult to read if the clerics could not do it.

I'll admit that this thought occurred to me as I watched the video (I've watched it several times because she's adorable!), and that caused me a bit of hesitation.  Then again, it's not a widespread custom AFAIK, maybe circumstances in the parish justified it (e.g., maybe she's very devout, wanted to do it, wouldn't take no for an answer, and obviously can scream loud if she's a brat).  Wink

The only reason I would accept is if she is the only one in the parish that can read.
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« Reply #245 on: November 27, 2013, 11:57:44 AM »

With that attitude she will be... because the parishes will be (and usually are) nearly empty.
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« Reply #246 on: November 27, 2013, 11:59:36 AM »

With that attitude she will be... because the parishes will be (and usually are) nearly empty.

Perhaps at your local parishes.  If all it takes is for a little girl to read an epistle to get people fumbling for their car keys to get to church, I'm more worried about those parishioners' attitudes.
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« Reply #247 on: November 27, 2013, 12:02:38 PM »

I don't think this is working, to be honest (along the lines of my recent "Let's Talk" post).
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« Reply #248 on: November 27, 2013, 01:38:34 PM »

The only reason I would accept is if she is the only one in the parish that can read.

My main issue would be the fact that there are clerics to spare who can read and yet don't (e.g., that random priest at the end just sitting in the altar smiling). 

But if we accept the principle that laypeople can legitimately "fill in" for clerics when it comes to the clerical ministry of liturgical reading (which I have trouble with, but which seems to be de rigueur throughout the EO world), then where do you draw the line?  There are no canons governing this practice.  If that little girl can read clearly and with a modicum of understanding (someone more conversant with Slavonic will have to say whether or not this is the case), and follow the rubrics (AFAIK, she's comfortable with this), it's really not that different from her layman grandfather doing the same.  The only thing that might argue in favour of someone else doing it is "taste". 
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« Reply #249 on: November 27, 2013, 01:50:00 PM »

If that little girl can read clearly and with a modicum of understanding (someone more conversant with Slavonic will have to say whether or not this is the case),

She is reading not that bad. I only have problem with her high voice. Unpleasant to hear.
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« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2013, 01:55:39 PM »

Can't speak for others but in my home region, it has been done for a very long time (like women now in their eighties remember doing it in the '30's). So it's somehow more than just local.
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« Reply #251 on: November 27, 2013, 04:07:38 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQh7Ar8WreQ
another one female reader. wonder if tonsured

Indeed, she's very good, amazing. I think it can be justified by attracting not adults, but youth - I mean, that they're able and allowed to be engaged into church actions (even girls, as for boys it's always been easier), that we do not only stand at the services. That's also the point of child/youth choirs.


I haven't posted anything in this thread until now, so I can admit that I've read in my parish several Times: the hours before DL (and prayers before Eucharist at it) and during the Presanctified Liturgy the psalms, and probably I'll still be doing it from time to time. In my parish it's treated like a sort of practice for the attendants of the Church Slavonic lessons given there. As long females do not enter the altar part and do not read the Gospel (except Pascha as it's read in many languages and I thin it's nice idea to involve the parishioners from different countries knowing different languages to read a piece)), I find it OK and great instance of church activity. And I'm emphasizing I'm a liturgical traditionalist.
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« Reply #252 on: November 30, 2013, 02:19:12 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQh7Ar8WreQ
another one female reader. wonder if tonsured
So...did she get a blessing from the priest inside the altar, or did he come out? I assume (hope?) the latter.

The only practice I know similar to anything described in this thread is that in my parish, younger girls usually collect donations after the Great Entrance, and receive a blessing from the priest at the top of solea, directly before the Royal Doors...sometimes they're so eager they almost walk right in. Being an altar server/subdeacon for 14 years, I'm not sure what to think about that; the area in front of the Royal Doors was always reserved for clergy and was pretty much off-limits unless a Hierarch was serving. I could be mistaken though.
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« Reply #253 on: November 30, 2013, 02:25:32 AM »

Afaik only the Russians walk into the altar to get the blessing to read the Apostle. The Romanians do not and IiRC neither do the Greeks or the Arabs
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« Reply #254 on: November 30, 2013, 02:30:53 AM »

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and receive a blessing from the priest at the top of solea, directly before the Royal Doors...sometimes they're so eager they almost walk right in. Being an altar server/subdeacon for 14 years, I'm not sure what to think about that; the area in front of the Royal Doors was always reserved for clergy and was pretty much off-limits unless a Hierarch was serving. I could be mistaken though.

You're not mistaken at all. The blessing to pass the collection plate should be done while the person (strictly speaking, it should be done by members of the parish council) is standing in front of the Royal Doors, but below the steps, never standing on the ambon itself. The ambon is to be stood on by clergy only, from the rank of deacon and above.

Even when a service is not being conducted, laymen are to avoid standing on the ambon, other than for necessary tasks such as cleaning/vacuuming the floor, or, depending on the width of the solea, attending to the oil lamp hanging over the Royal Doors. Even when flowers are placed under the icons of the iconostasis, one should use the steps to the side of the ambon proper to get to the iconostasis, then come down to the nave, and back up on the other side, not cutting across the ambon.
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« Reply #255 on: November 30, 2013, 02:33:05 AM »

Afaik only the Russians walk into the altar to get the blessing to read the Apostle. The Romanians do not and IiRC neither do the Greeks or the Arabs

If the little girl reading the Epistle was not doing so in a Russian church, it would be a church which follows Russian tradition. I would be horrified if she did enter the altar. Greeks read the Epistle from the right kliros, not the center of the nave.
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« Reply #256 on: November 30, 2013, 06:12:54 AM »

5-year-old entering the altar! Abomination! Horrified I am!
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« Reply #257 on: December 06, 2013, 08:12:17 PM »

I offer you my rhetorical support!  If I was a hierarch, I'd be right with you on this one.

Add me to your support group, Xaira.  Smiley

I'd also like to see girls assume some roles in the liturgy as well. Perhaps not entering the altar area, but I can't see why they could not join in the entrances (Great and Small) once it passes from the altar to the nave. And as such, have acolyte vestments as well. Currently our girls take the role of looking after the antidoron and keeping the wine vessels filled.

I'd also like to see a renewal of the office of deaconess. It's long, long over-due, but then there are so many things that are needing our attention (i.e. married episcopate to name but one). If only... if only we Orthodox could get our spiritual butts in gear and call an ecumenical council. It's soooo over-due it's an embarassment.

I noticed that during one of the Divine Liturgies on Youtube served as part of the funeral services for His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV in Beirut that girls carried the fans, cross, ect. during the Little and Great Entrances. I asked one of our Bishops about it and he told me that the girls do not enter the Altar, the altar servers bring the fans, etc. out to them for the procession.
In one parish I served, the girls cut up the antidorion giving them something special to do. In my present location, I have the girls ring the bells.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #258 on: December 14, 2013, 04:20:35 PM »

Afaik only the Russians walk into the altar to get the blessing to read the Apostle. The Romanians do not and IiRC neither do the Greeks or the Arabs

We do. No word from on high that it's to be banned. Yet.
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« Reply #259 on: December 14, 2013, 04:50:27 PM »

Afaik only the Russians walk into the altar to get the blessing to read the Apostle. The Romanians do not and IiRC neither do the Greeks or the Arabs

We do. No wor
d from on high that it's to be banned. Yet.
Perhaps you are White Antiochoans. Cause the Palestinians and Syrians I saw here I don't renember them doing that. The only where place I distinctly remember seeing the practice was in the OCA.
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« Reply #260 on: December 14, 2013, 05:44:39 PM »

I offer you my rhetorical support!  If I was a hierarch, I'd be right with you on this one.

Add me to your support group, Xaira.  Smiley

I'd also like to see girls assume some roles in the liturgy as well. Perhaps not entering the altar area, but I can't see why they could not join in the entrances (Great and Small) once it passes from the altar to the nave. And as such, have acolyte vestments as well. Currently our girls take the role of looking after the antidoron and keeping the wine vessels filled.

I'd also like to see a renewal of the office of deaconess. It's long, long over-due, but then there are so many things that are needing our attention (i.e. married episcopate to name but one). If only... if only we Orthodox could get our spiritual butts in gear and call an ecumenical council. It's soooo over-due it's an embarassment.
Having to call an Ecumenical Council is an embarrassment-it means drastic surgery because wellness care has not been maintained.
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« Reply #261 on: December 14, 2013, 07:15:04 PM »

Perhaps you are White Antiochoans. Cause the Palestinians and Syrians I saw here I don't renember them doing that. The only where place I distinctly remember seeing the practice was in the OCA.

The local Antiochian parish, predominantly Arab in membership and using Arabic liberally in liturgical services, has the epistle readers (English and Arabic) come up to the royal doors where the priest will come out and bless them. 
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« Reply #262 on: December 14, 2013, 07:18:44 PM »

Perhaps you are White Antiochoans. Cause the Palestinians and Syrians I saw here I don't renember them doing that. The only where place I distinctly remember seeing the practice was in the OCA.

The local Antiochian parish, predominantly Arab in membership and using Arabic liberally in liturgical services, has the epistle readers (English and Arabic) come up to the royal doors where the priest will come out and bless them. 
yes , but they don't go inside the altar like (some?) Russians.
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« Reply #263 on: December 14, 2013, 07:21:50 PM »

yes , but they don't go inside the altar like (some?) Russians.

I can't say for sure.  Any time I've visited, at least one of the readers was a woman.  What happens there if two men are doing the reading?  I can't say.
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« Reply #264 on: December 14, 2013, 07:35:05 PM »

Some here do, some they don't.

It seems tonsured readers tend to enter the priest for a blessing, others - don't.
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« Reply #265 on: December 14, 2013, 08:18:47 PM »


So adorable!!!
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« Reply #266 on: December 14, 2013, 10:03:44 PM »

Afaik only the Russians walk into the altar to get the blessing to read the Apostle. The Romanians do not and IiRC neither do the Greeks or the Arabs

We do. No word from on high that it's to be banned. Yet.

After I go to the High Place, I always walk out on the Ambon and bless the reader who is standing in the Solea during the end of the Trisagion. It would not be proper for a woman who is about to read the Epistle to enter the Altar to go to the High Place for the blessing.

Fr. John W. Morris 
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« Reply #267 on: December 15, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »

i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... Kiss

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  Roll Eyes

Not if they were appropriately veiled! Smiley

good call...i might be able to focus in that case...that is if i didn't think most women are more attractive in veils... :doh:

I have found that the Slavic tradition deals with this nicely.  Women should always attend services with less fabric committed to their skirts than to their veils.

Really?  My bishop has said that in one parish he visits, some of the Russian women are wearing very short skirts and very revealing tops (but, of course, are wearing a scarf on their head).  He said he would much rather that they skip the head covering and cover the rest of themselves.
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« Reply #268 on: December 16, 2013, 08:02:06 AM »

i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... Kiss

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  Roll Eyes

Not if they were appropriately veiled! Smiley

good call...i might be able to focus in that case...that is if i didn't think most women are more attractive in veils... :doh:

I have found that the Slavic tradition deals with this nicely.  Women should always attend services with less fabric committed to their skirts than to their veils.

Really?  My bishop has said that in one parish he visits, some of the Russian women are wearing very short skirts and very revealing tops (but, of course, are wearing a scarf on their head).  He said he would much rather that they skip the head covering and cover the rest of themselves.

Can they still commune though?  A hieromonk I know will not give communion until some of the more revealing ladies cover themselves, even if it means going to the end of the line.   Uncovered heads not as big a deal as uncovered cleavage.
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« Reply #269 on: December 16, 2013, 10:31:43 AM »

i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... Kiss

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  Roll Eyes

Not if they were appropriately veiled! Smiley

good call...i might be able to focus in that case...that is if i didn't think most women are more attractive in veils... :doh:

I have found that the Slavic tradition deals with this nicely.  Women should always attend services with less fabric committed to their skirts than to their veils.

Really?  My bishop has said that in one parish he visits, some of the Russian women are wearing very short skirts and very revealing tops (but, of course, are wearing a scarf on their head).  He said he would much rather that they skip the head covering and cover the rest of themselves.

Can they still commune though?  A hieromonk I know will not give communion until some of the more revealing ladies cover themselves, even if it means going to the end of the line.   Uncovered heads not as big a deal as uncovered cleavage.
I like this hieromonk! Smiley
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