Author Topic: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers  (Read 30618 times)

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Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #180 on: November 15, 2011, 09:56:24 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.
I think you are right to be bothered by the Greek custom of blessing altar boys to wear the orarion of a subdeacon.  I cannot understand why the Greek Church i.e. EP does not foster vocations to the subdiaconate, and ordain men as subdeacons.  Our local Greek church has an ordained subdeacon (ordained by the Russian Church Abroad) and I have never seen an ordained subdeacon in a Greek church otherwise.  I assume this is because of the clerical discipline requiring subdeacons to be married - or not to marry or divorce after ordination. Girls or women in the altar - except nuns in a convent is an absurdity and a ludicrous modernisation to adjust to the values of the secular world - a bit like pews, pipe organs and priests dressed in suits, but in many ways far worse.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 09:58:01 AM by SubdeaconDavid »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.

Thankfully, this practice is becoming rarer in the Greek parishes in the US.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2011, 10:01:22 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.
I think you are right to be bothered by the Greek custom of blessing altar boys to wear the orarion of a subdeacon.  I cannot understand why the Greek Church i.e. EP does not foster vocations to the subdiaconate, and ordain men as subdeacons.  Our local Greek church has an ordained subdeacon (ordained by the Russian Church Abroad) and I have never seen an ordained subdeacon in a Greek church otherwise.  I assume this is because of the clerical discipline requiring subdeacons to be married - or not to marry or divorce after ordination.

I think the Church is so focused on the absolute shortage of priests that it has allowed vocations to the subdeaconate to go underserved.  I've met a couple of adult, permanent subdeacons in Greek parishes, and at least one of them was in this state only because he divorced after becoming a subdeacon (his desire was to be a permanent deacon).  The GOA is moving in the right direction, though, with the increased encouragement for permanent deacons.  I believe this will allow a trickle-down.

However, it would be incorrect to assume that there is a systematic discouragement of ordaining men to the subdeaconate.  Ultimately, the decisions lie with the local bishop, and most of them need priests & deacons so badly that they're not focusing on the subdeacons.  My proistamenos wasn't alone when he responded to my comment that I'd love to be a deacon for a nice, long time with, "You're no good to me as a deacon!"  He was being facetious, but there is an underlying truth - this parish needs a second priest for things that another deacon would not be able to do.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2011, 11:18:01 AM »
I was not aware that there was a clergy shortage in the US.  Right now, the Antiochian Archdiocese has more graduating seminarians than available parishes.  I fairly certain the OCA has a similar issue.

Our local GOA parish has a permanent deacon, a really fine man who serves full-time as pastoral assistant.

Why does the GOA have a shortage?   ???


Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.
I think you are right to be bothered by the Greek custom of blessing altar boys to wear the orarion of a subdeacon.  I cannot understand why the Greek Church i.e. EP does not foster vocations to the subdiaconate, and ordain men as subdeacons.  Our local Greek church has an ordained subdeacon (ordained by the Russian Church Abroad) and I have never seen an ordained subdeacon in a Greek church otherwise.  I assume this is because of the clerical discipline requiring subdeacons to be married - or not to marry or divorce after ordination.

I think the Church is so focused on the absolute shortage of priests that it has allowed vocations to the subdeaconate to go underserved.  I've met a couple of adult, permanent subdeacons in Greek parishes, and at least one of them was in this state only because he divorced after becoming a subdeacon (his desire was to be a permanent deacon).  The GOA is moving in the right direction, though, with the increased encouragement for permanent deacons.  I believe this will allow a trickle-down.

However, it would be incorrect to assume that there is a systematic discouragement of ordaining men to the subdeaconate.  Ultimately, the decisions lie with the local bishop, and most of them need priests & deacons so badly that they're not focusing on the subdeacons.  My proistamenos wasn't alone when he responded to my comment that I'd love to be a deacon for a nice, long time with, "You're no good to me as a deacon!"  He was being facetious, but there is an underlying truth - this parish needs a second priest for things that another deacon would not be able to do.
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Online augustin717

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #184 on: November 15, 2011, 03:34:16 PM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metroplitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.
That's wonderful, imho. It happened in Romania too. A few of them involved the higher hierarchy (metropolitan, bishop). But on the lower level, it was very common, in Transylvania for Orthodox and Greek-Catholic priests to serve together at funerals and weddings especially because there were mixed families etc.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 03:36:40 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #185 on: November 15, 2011, 04:35:49 PM »
I was not aware that there was a clergy shortage in the US.  Right now, the Antiochian Archdiocese has more graduating seminarians than available parishes.  I fairly certain the OCA has a similar issue.

Our local GOA parish has a permanent deacon, a really fine man who serves full-time as pastoral assistant.

Why does the GOA have a shortage?   ???

IMO, 3 reasons:

1. Greek people think it's ok to have 600, 800, 1,000 family parishes with 1 priest.  (But they'll also say they don't think their parish does much for them.  They don't see the irony in this.)  In most conversations I've had with folks who know much more than I about being a good pastor/shepherd/priest, 250:1 is the max ratio that should be utilized (families:priests).  This part of the conversation could easily dovetail into a talk about Stewardship, charity, and community outreach.

2. We had a "dry" spell where not too many went to or graduated from our seminary.  Turmoil @ HC and in NY in the '90's.

3. Many parishes have become "addicted" to having a semi-retired, weekend-only priest serving them.  If all the priests over the age of, say, 67 retired today, we wouldn't have enough priests to fill all the slots.

==================================

Back to the topic:

I'm personally in favor of changing the "altar boy" system we have in many parishes.

1. Kids should be trained to be readers first.  As soon as possible, in fact.
2. Then they should become cantors/choir members.
3. Then, as teens and young adults, they should serve in the altar.
4. Each parish should have at least 1-2 married (or confirmed celibate) adults ordained as subdeacons.  (None of this, "you can be a subdeacon and get married later" business used to justify making a 16-year-old a "subdeacon.")
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2011, 04:47:41 PM »
Quote
1. Kids should be trained to be readers first.  As soon as possible, in fact.
2. Then they should become cantors/choir members.

To chant or sing in church requires a reasonable voice, and a good ear, especially where Byzantine chant is required. It is possible to be a competent and fluent reader, but a lousy singer - I've come across too many examples in my life from both Greek and Slavic traditions to be persuaded otherwise. Polyphonic singing, while still exacting, can accommodate a little imperfection; Byzantine chant cannot. She is a stern mistress: when she's good, she's very, very good, and when she's only a little bit off, she's HORRID!
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #187 on: November 15, 2011, 05:01:24 PM »
Quote
1. Kids should be trained to be readers first.  As soon as possible, in fact.
2. Then they should become cantors/choir members.

To chant or sing in church requires a reasonable voice, and a good ear, especially where Byzantine chant is required. It is possible to be a competent and fluent reader, but a lousy singer - I've come across too many examples in my life from both Greek and Slavic traditions to be persuaded otherwise. Polyphonic singing, while still exacting, can accommodate a little imperfection; Byzantine chant cannot. She is a stern mistress: when she's good, she's very, very good, and when she's only a little bit off, she's HORRID!

Amen to that! Having been in the Bulgarian tradition, I was exposed to both chanting (Byzantine) and singing in a choir (all Russian and Bulgarian four-part harmonies), often during the same service. I must say that I am very partial to the latter because, if the choir sticks to simple melodies, the congregation can sing also, whereas it is impossible for the congregation to chant along a Byzantine chanter.

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #188 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:57 PM »
Why does the GOA have a shortage?   ???[/font][/size]

There are many reasons.

We require a lot of our ordinands. They must earn an M.Div. from an Orthodox seminary, in the majority of cases from Holy Cross in what is a *four-year* program. No correspondence courses or heterodox degrees allowed. There is a whole list of additional standards (spiritual, canonical, psychological, and familial) enforced by the Chancellor and Eparchial Synod.

Over the last 10 years, an usually high number of priests have retired. That trend is continuing.

The pipeline of new priests was lower than usual in the 90s. Vocations seem to be rising in the last ten years, but it is difficult to make up for lower numbers in the previous decade combined with massive retirements.

Our parishes are diverse: some are large (1,200 families), some medium (500 families), others small (100 families); some require fluency in Greek, others not; some can afford to pay for health insurance for a priestly family of eight, others not; some need an experienced pastor with proven abilities, others are more suited to younger clergy. This creates a "shortage" of certain types of priests.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:18:23 PM by pensateomnia »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #189 on: November 15, 2011, 05:29:52 PM »
The Church would probably do better with vocations if it did a better job of catering to young, single people looking to become young, married people.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #190 on: November 15, 2011, 05:30:26 PM »
Quote
1. Kids should be trained to be readers first.  As soon as possible, in fact.
2. Then they should become cantors/choir members.

To chant or sing in church requires a reasonable voice, and a good ear, especially where Byzantine chant is required. It is possible to be a competent and fluent reader, but a lousy singer - I've come across too many examples in my life from both Greek and Slavic traditions to be persuaded otherwise. Polyphonic singing, while still exacting, can accommodate a little imperfection; Byzantine chant cannot. She is a stern mistress: when she's good, she's very, very good, and when she's only a little bit off, she's HORRID!

Most of our Greek parishes have polyphonic choirs.  But there is a long tradition of training children to chant, as attested to old recordings of Nafpliotis and Pringos at the Patriarchate singing with kids who aren't even teenagers yet.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #191 on: November 15, 2011, 05:31:40 PM »
Observation from our recent national clergy retreat: the number of non-Greek last names was at least 1/3, but not more than 1/2, of the population of 125 priests. 
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #192 on: November 15, 2011, 05:40:03 PM »
The Church would probably do better with vocations if it did a better job of catering to young, single people looking to become young, married people.

If by "cater" you mean "challenge, mentor, and empower spiritually" and by "young, single people" you mean "young teenagers," then I agree.

Sociologists of religion have shown that, statistically speaking, a 17-year-old who hasn't had a significant religious experience (e.g. felt God's presence in prayer) is HIGHLY unlikely to maintain faith into young adulthood or adulthood, much less develop a vocation.
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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #193 on: November 15, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »
The Church would probably do better with vocations if it did a better job of catering to young, single people looking to become young, married people.

If by "cater" you mean "challenge, mentor, and empower spiritually" and by "young, single people" you mean "young teenagers," then I agree.

Sociologists of religion have shown that, statistically speaking, a 17-year-old who hasn't had a significant religious experience (e.g. felt God's presence in prayer) is HIGHLY unlikely to maintain faith into young adulthood or adulthood, much less develop a vocation.

Also some research has shown that the faith of the father of the family is very important. After all, he is the spiritual head of the family, or is supposed to be. However, if those dads do not attend church on Sundays and pray during the week, the children of that parent will not be inclined to be religious either.

My priest mentioned that St. Basil came from a family of saints. His father and mother were both saints.

I guess it is not surprising that many priests come from families of priests.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #194 on: November 15, 2011, 06:53:25 PM »
The Church would probably do better with vocations if it did a better job of catering to young, single people looking to become young, married people.

If by "cater" you mean "challenge, mentor, and empower spiritually" and by "young, single people" you mean "young teenagers," then I agree.

Sociologists of religion have shown that, statistically speaking, a 17-year-old who hasn't had a significant religious experience (e.g. felt God's presence in prayer) is HIGHLY unlikely to maintain faith into young adulthood or adulthood, much less develop a vocation.

It is certainly a crucial time of a person's spiritual life which presents unique challenges.

Walking into a random parish in Sydney, one could be forgiven for thinking Orthodoxy is for young children and those over forty only.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2011, 10:48:35 PM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metroplitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.

Can you provide links or evidence for any of these accusations that are in English, by chance?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 10:52:46 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2011, 10:54:00 PM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metroplitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.

Can you provide links or evidence for any of these that are in English, by chance?
Will that spur your move to the Truly Genuine Synod in Resistance or some such?

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2011, 01:16:05 AM »
Will that spur your move to the Truly Genuine Synod in Resistance or some such?

Here's some more attention for you.

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2011, 01:22:11 AM »
Will that spur your move to the Truly Genuine Synod in Resistance or some such?

Here's some more attention for you.
Just keep the inner peace and ceaseless noetic prayer.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2011, 01:33:56 AM »
Will that spur your move to the Truly Genuine Synod in Resistance or some such?

Here's some more attention for you.
Just keep the inner peace and ceaseless noetic prayer.

You can't get in the last word if I type this.

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #200 on: November 16, 2011, 03:49:44 AM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metropolitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.

Can you provide links or evidence for any of these accusations that are in English, by chance?

I really don't accuse anyone. I just share what has happaned.


The common consecration of the church in Damascus and common Vespers took place in February 2005, not in 2004. I think I was discussed here before.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5420.0

http://web.archive.org/web/20050728132531/http://antiochpat.org/english/news/news.php?newsid=71

http://soufanieh.com/2005.02.04.EGLISE.STS.PIERRE.ET.PAUL/index.htm










The funeral service of Walid Gholmieh. Metropolitan Elias of Beirut and Metropolitan Elias of Tyre and Sidon are wearing black omophors, Metropolitan Kallas is in red omophor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10HSxCPsGZE

The common Holy Unction service in the Melkite Cathedral in Sidon with the participation of an Orthodox priest and an Orthodox deacon:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150170684966881.290515.728891880&type=3


Offline ag_vn

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2011, 03:52:39 AM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metroplitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.
That's wonderful, imho. It happened in Romania too. A few of them involved the higher hierarchy (metropolitan, bishop). But on the lower level, it was very common, in Transylvania for Orthodox and Greek-Catholic priests to serve together at funerals and weddings especially because there were mixed families etc.

Something like this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNxv4Dx-Ck

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Female sub-deacons
« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2011, 11:47:27 AM »
Haha, why don't you work on bigger problems  before you start worryin about deaconesses and females having a more "active role" in the church.  How about trying to get people to a) come to church on time b) come to church at all c) getting new people to come????

Sounds like a bunch of misplaced priorities if you ask me.
Particularly since the question of "deaconesses" has already been answered by the Church. It seems we've entered a new era whereby things that certain individuals don't like within the Church are challenged by the statement "The Church needs to address [blank]", ignoring the fact that [blank] was answered centuries before.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #203 on: November 16, 2011, 12:28:06 PM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metropolitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.

Can you provide links or evidence for any of these accusations that are in English, by chance?

I really don't accuse anyone. I just share what has happaned.


The common consecration of the church in Damascus and common Vespers took place in February 2005, not in 2004. I think I was discussed here before.
That's a little troubling. It would be more troubling, if it were not for the Melkites somewhat odd relation to the Vatican and its dogmas.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #204 on: November 16, 2011, 02:01:11 PM »
I cannot understand why the Greek Church i.e. EP does not foster vocations to the subdiaconate, and ordain men as subdeacons.  Our local Greek church has an ordained subdeacon (ordained by the Russian Church Abroad) and I have never seen an ordained subdeacon in a Greek church otherwise.  I assume this is because of the clerical discipline requiring subdeacons to be married - or not to marry or divorce after ordination.

My church has always had an ordained, permanent subdeacon. It's a Greek church under the EP.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #205 on: November 16, 2011, 02:56:31 PM »
That's a little troubling.

Just a little bit, huh?

Offline filipinopilgrim

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #206 on: November 17, 2011, 01:52:06 AM »

Something like this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNxv4Dx-Ck

The Romanian Orthodox bishop who did that was later reprimanded by the Holy Synod of Romania and made to repent and seek forgiveness for what he did.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/romanian_orthodox_synod_disciplines_bishop_for_intercommunion_with_catholics/

When a Romanian Orthodox priest concelebrated with a Roman Catholic priest on Pentecost last year he was deposed from the priesthood.


Offline pasadi97

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2011, 06:25:51 AM »
The leader of Eastern Orthodox Church is Jesus and Jesus can be spoken with through prayer and people can pray for anything including revitalizing this office with the mention to be for good use by the fullfillers of this position and by the Church. If Jesus will want this , I believe it will happen since nothing can stand against Word of God. In my understanding we can discuss this after the feminism vanishes and such. Now is not a good time. Women in after life do not like what we know as feminism . True feminism is the feminism that lead women to God, heaven, eternal life is orthodoxy.

Again people come to Eastern orthodox Church because here is the tree of eternal life and because this is the Church established by Jesus on year 33 and having back eternal life means actually to be a better man, woman. What help with the skills you acquired if life would not become eternal.

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2011, 07:09:11 AM »

I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2011, 10:42:08 AM »
I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.

I can only pray it if it's in my prayer book.

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2011, 02:37:57 PM »

Something like this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNxv4Dx-Ck

The Romanian Orthodox bishop who did that was later reprimanded by the Holy Synod of Romania and made to repent and seek forgiveness for what he did.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/romanian_orthodox_synod_disciplines_bishop_for_intercommunion_with_catholics/

When a Romanian Orthodox priest concelebrated with a Roman Catholic priest on Pentecost last year he was deposed from the priesthood.


Those are the few cases that were officially sanctioned. But certain con-celebrations between Greek-Catholics and Orthodox have been traditional in parts of Transylvania for ever. They continue to this day ( I know some from y area, where there have never been many Greek-Catholics, only a few villages); but village happenings do not get any attention from the Orthodox vigilantes for various reasons, mainly because most of these vigilantes aren't from Transylvania, but from elsewhere (Moldova, Wallachia etc).
Plus I've seen and heard,in flesh and blood,  when I was in school, our metropolitan Nicolae Corneanu say that Catholics are basically the same as we; he once told us some story about an Orthodox saint and a Catholic one, rhetorically asking "can you say they didn't belong to the same church?". The same goes for Fr. Teofil Paraianu, arecenly deceased, blind monk, from Sambata de Sus, that I've also seen many times.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2011, 02:49:24 PM »

Something like this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNxv4Dx-Ck

The Romanian Orthodox bishop who did that was later reprimanded by the Holy Synod of Romania and made to repent and seek forgiveness for what he did.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/romanian_orthodox_synod_disciplines_bishop_for_intercommunion_with_catholics/

When a Romanian Orthodox priest concelebrated with a Roman Catholic priest on Pentecost last year he was deposed from the priesthood.


Those are the few cases that were officially sanctioned. But certain con-celebrations between Greek-Catholics and Orthodox have been traditional in parts of Transylvania for ever. They continue to this day ( I know some from y area, where there have never been many Greek-Catholics, only a few villages); but village happenings do not get any attention from the Orthodox vigilantes for various reasons, mainly because most of these vigilantes aren't from Transylvania, but from elsewhere (Moldova, Wallachia etc).
Plus I've seen and heard,in flesh and blood,  when I was in school, our metropolitan Nicolae Corneanu say that Catholics are basically the same as we; he once told us some story about an Orthodox saint and a Catholic one, rhetorically asking "can you say they didn't belong to the same church?". The same goes for Fr. Teofil Paraianu, arecenly deceased, blind monk, from Sambata de Sus, that I've also seen many times.
You do know that Met. Nicolae Corneanu was recently corrected on this, no?
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #212 on: November 28, 2011, 01:57:46 PM »

I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.

It seems we've entered a new era whereby things that certain individuals don't like within the Church are challenged by the statement "The Church needs to address [blank]", ignoring the fact that [blank] was answered centuries before.

Offline Punch

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #213 on: November 28, 2011, 04:51:30 PM »

I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.


He has.  Some people just have ears that do not hear and eyes that do not see.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #214 on: November 29, 2011, 06:01:02 AM »

I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.

It seems we've entered a new era whereby things that certain individuals don't like within the Church are challenged by the statement "The Church needs to address [blank]", ignoring the fact that [blank] was answered centuries before.

Very true. In this case, we know quite well that the office of deaconness is a venerable tradition received by the Church since apostolic times.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #215 on: November 29, 2011, 10:31:58 AM »
I believe that it has been the tradition not to have them for many centuries.  I am sure there was a good reason for the practice to fall out of favor. Interestingly, the only churches to currently use them are heretical.  May as well follow their lead.  We did on the calendar.


I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses has arrised to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.

It seems we've entered a new era whereby things that certain individuals don't like within the Church are challenged by the statement "The Church needs to address [blank]", ignoring the fact that [blank] was answered centuries before.

Very true. In this case, we know quite well that the office of deaconness is a venerable tradition received by the Church since apostolic times.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #216 on: November 29, 2011, 10:34:11 AM »

I think we can pray:

Dear God, the question of odaining women as deaconesses b]has arrised [/b]  to your Church. Please give us and implement a solution that would give salvation to most men, women, children and that would be beneficial to all. Amen.


Do you truly not know that deaconesses existed in the early church & up to about the 12th century?  Ordaining deaconesses is not something new but part of the tradition of the Orthodox Church. .Also that the Greek Orthodox Church began ordaining deaconesses just a few yeaRS ago.  
Have you read the proceedings of the Pan-Orthodox Consultations on Women and the role of women in the ministry of the Orthodox Church?  If not I will look for the books for you.

Offline Foxy

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #217 on: November 29, 2011, 11:48:36 AM »
Hi,

This is my first post since joining this site.

This is a topic that interests me deeply, because it is part of the reason why I am moving away from my anglican faith, and towards an orthodox one.

At some point feminists managed to get further and further within the faith, I'm sure starting at being laity/deacons, and pushing for greater and greater change so that they could shape the church in their own image by having female clergy.

I'm all for female involvement within the church to a point, but it can be a slippery slope allowing females with a hidden agenda to get their hooks into the faith.

Take for example how feminists have managed to influence changes to the various english bibles.

I am very much concerned that Christianity is slowly being altered to suit various groups not just feminists.

Regards.

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #218 on: November 29, 2011, 01:50:04 PM »
Hi,

This is my first post since joining this site.

This is a topic that interests me deeply, because it is part of the reason why I am moving away from my anglican faith, and towards an orthodox one.

At some point feminists managed to get further and further within the faith, I'm sure starting at being laity/deacons, and pushing for greater and greater change so that they could shape the church in their own image by having female clergy.


Regards.

I have a negative reaction to your post.  Is your reason for being interested in the Orthodox Church by default because it does not havea female priesthood?  Do you know the history of women's involvement in the Orthodox Church starting with the ordination of deaconnesses?

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #219 on: November 29, 2011, 01:53:33 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #220 on: November 29, 2011, 02:08:22 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  ::)
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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #221 on: November 29, 2011, 04:08:42 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  ::)

Not if they were appropriately veiled! :)
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #222 on: November 29, 2011, 04:53:24 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  ::)

Not if they were appropriately veiled! :)

good call...i might be able to focus in that case...that is if i didn't think most women are more attractive in veils... :doh:

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #223 on: November 29, 2011, 04:54:07 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  ::)

ya, but men are more visually stimulated...its in our genes (sic) ...

Offline vamrat

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2011, 08:18:32 PM »
i would probably find it distracting, esp. if they had some cute subdeacons/readers... :-*

I'm sure there have been plenty of handsome priests over the centuries who were quite capable of distracting the ladies ....  ::)

Not if they were appropriately veiled! :)

good call...i might be able to focus in that case...that is if i didn't think most women are more attractive in veils... :doh:

I have found that the Slavic tradition deals with this nicely.  Women should always attend services with less fabric committed to their skirts than to their veils.
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