Author Topic: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers  (Read 46977 times)

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Offline Orest

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #135 on: November 14, 2011, 12:55:24 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 12:57:12 PM by Orest »

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #136 on: November 14, 2011, 01:00:22 PM »

Oh oh.

Hopefully, the girls did not enter the Altar.
I don't see any evidence that the girls in the picture are "altar girls".  Who knows what role they play?  For example, they could be taking up a special collection.  Children do that at my church.  They could be members of a children's choir.  Not unheard of is it.  This is not a picture of girls behind the iconostasis during the liturgy.

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #137 on: November 14, 2011, 01:22:06 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I have never seen members of the choir dressed as altar boys.
Since the Melkite Church does allow altar girls (in some countries), I would not be surprised if the Antiochians do likewise.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #138 on: November 14, 2011, 01:25:58 PM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #139 on: November 14, 2011, 01:44:09 PM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?

There was talk that Bishop Nicholas here in the USA approved of Melkite Altar Girls.

However, I heard that these altar girls could only stand on the solea holding candles and take part in processions holding icons, but they could not enter the Holy of Holies. When they reached 12, then they were encouraged to join the choir or the chanter's stand.

Incidentally, the Antiochians do allow baby girls to be churched and be brought inside the Altar.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 01:46:29 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Fotina02

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #140 on: November 14, 2011, 01:49:26 PM »
Quote
Orthodox scouts and children vested in dalmatics participated in the Little Entrance. http://www.mospat.ru/en/2011/11/13/news52076/

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2011, 03:28:04 PM »
I don't see any evidence that the girls in the picture are "altar girls".  Who knows what role they play?  For example, they could be taking up a special collection.  Children do that at my church.  They could be members of a children's choir.  Not unheard of is it.  This is not a picture of girls behind the iconostasis during the liturgy.

Evidence has already been provided for this in other threads. The laxity of the Patriarchate of Antioch in this matter is known, especially in Western Europe. But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?
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« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 04:18:30 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #142 on: November 14, 2011, 03:57:10 PM »
I don't see any evidence that the girls in the picture are "altar girls".  Who knows what role they play?  For example, they could be taking up a special collection.  Children do that at my church.  They could be members of a children's choir.  Not unheard of is it.  This is not a picture of girls behind the iconostasis during the liturgy.

Evidence has already been provided for this in other threads. The laxity of the Patriarchate of Antioch in this matter is known, especially in Western Europe. But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?
Evidence of Altar girls in Western Europe?  Sorry I missed that thread.  Please provide a link.
But serioulsy, I think the English translation of the article states exactly what the girls are and they are not "altar girls".

M-word removed - MK.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 04:19:00 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline mike

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #143 on: November 14, 2011, 04:09:50 PM »
I've never heard of boy scouts dressed like subdeacons.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #144 on: November 14, 2011, 04:13:27 PM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?

There was talk that Bishop Nicholas here in the USA approved of Melkite Altar Girls.

However, I heard that these altar girls could only stand on the solea holding candles and take part in processions holding icons, but they could not enter the Holy of Holies. When they reached 12, then they were encouraged to join the choir or the chanter's stand.

Incidentally, the Antiochians do allow baby girls to be churched and be brought inside the Altar.

A directive from Metropolitan Philip supposedly stopped allowing unbaptized babies to be brought inside the altar.
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2011, 04:16:43 PM »
I don't see any evidence that the girls in the picture are "altar girls".  Who knows what role they play?  For example, they could be taking up a special collection. 

Dressed in orarions.
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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #146 on: November 14, 2011, 04:20:27 PM »
I don't see any evidence that the girls in the picture are "altar girls".  Who knows what role they play?  For example, they could be taking up a special collection. 

Dressed in orarions.

If that's it, that's not conclusive evidence.  It's certainly circumstantial, but, as Orest pointed out, they could be part of a children's choir or could be used outside the altar area and simply dress in the same robes as the boys behind the altar do.  Until there's pictures of these particular girls serving behind the altar or eyewitness testimony, there is no real evidence that they're "altar girls."
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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2011, 04:22:47 PM »
Two similar topics merged.
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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #148 on: November 14, 2011, 05:02:13 PM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?

There was talk that Bishop Nicholas here in the USA approved of Melkite Altar Girls.

However, I heard that these altar girls could only stand on the solea holding candles and take part in processions holding icons, but they could not enter the Holy of Holies. When they reached 12, then they were encouraged to join the choir or the chanter's stand.

Incidentally, the Antiochians do allow baby girls to be churched and be brought inside the Altar.

A directive from Metropolitan Philip supposedly stopped allowing unbaptized babies to be brought inside the altar.

Was this recent? I saw a baby girl churched and brought inside the Altar this summer at an Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 05:02:45 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #149 on: November 14, 2011, 05:03:04 PM »
I don't know why this "first grade of the priesthood" garbage was inserted into the prayers - it's nothing but bunk.  There are several clear divisions in purpose and origin between the so-called "lower clergy" (LC) and the so-called "higher clergy" (and even within the "higher clergy" (HC)). 

- All the LC, and the deaconate too, are drawn from the ranks of the laity, while the priesthood is sourced from the Episcopacy, which comes from the Apostolic ministry.  Different origins.

- None of the LC can do anything remotely close to what the HC can do - distribute communion, lead petitions, celebrate or co-celebrate the sacraments, etc.

- None of the LC are ordained within the sanctuary, before the Holy Table.

- The priesthood exercises a degree of the Episcopal ministry, which cannot be said of the Deaconate (or the LC).  The priest can celebrate most of the sacraments (save Ordination, Consecration, and the making of Chrism) and do so "alone" (w/o other clergy).  The Episcopacy represents the fullness of the Church's ministry in the world (hence St. Ignatios' exhortations), the priests participate in that; the deacons (and LC) represent the meeting of the lay ministry and the clerical ministry, and the LC are laymen in authority.

None of this represents an argument for or against tonsuring women readers - I'm not a bishop, and therefore I don't care.  But I do hate to see perfectly good theology ruined with useless and false interjections.

Typically, what are the qualifications to be a Reader ( besides being Male)?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #150 on: November 14, 2011, 05:06:23 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #151 on: November 14, 2011, 05:07:30 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?

Yes.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #152 on: November 14, 2011, 05:13:55 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?

Only in monasteries, and usually those who are past a certain age - usually 50 or so.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #153 on: November 14, 2011, 05:19:23 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?

Yes.

Okay..Nun's are Women... So, what's the difference?
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #154 on: November 14, 2011, 05:20:09 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?

Only in monasteries, and usually those who are past a certain age - usually 50 or so.

Okay, thanks
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #155 on: November 14, 2011, 07:52:44 PM »
I'm not even sure children should be serving at the altar, whatever their sex.

I wouldn't suffer the lack of deportment that sometimes goes on behind the iconostasis if I were in charge. But I suppose they're cute in their oraria and sticharia, so it's okay.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:53:49 PM by akimori makoto »
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #156 on: November 14, 2011, 08:03:21 PM »
I'm not even sure children should be serving at the altar, whatever their sex.

I wouldn't suffer the lack of deportment that sometimes goes on behind the iconostasis if I were in charge. But I suppose they're cute in their oraria and sticharia, so it's okay.

Having restless kids Alter serve makes it 2x as hard and  -1 as nice. Not worth the effort IMHO. Not to mention the fire hazard.

I'm the official kid wrangler behind the Alter. We have had two sent to serve precisely because they have behavior problems and the Parents hope this will help to contain them.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 08:03:52 PM by Marc1152 »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #157 on: November 14, 2011, 08:05:02 PM »
I'm not even sure children should be serving at the altar, whatever their sex.

I wouldn't suffer the lack of deportment that sometimes goes on behind the iconostasis if I were in charge. But I suppose they're cute in their oraria and sticharia, so it's okay.

Having restless kids Alter serve makes it 2x as hard and  -1 as nice. Not worth the effort IMHO. Not to mention the fire hazard.

I'm the official kid wrangler behind the Alter. We have had two sent to serve precisely because they have behavior problems and the Parents hope this will help to contain them.

Wow, the Holy Place as a niche form of therapy. Nice.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Altar girls in the Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus?
« Reply #158 on: November 14, 2011, 09:09:44 PM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?

There was talk that Bishop Nicholas here in the USA approved of Melkite Altar Girls.

However, I heard that these altar girls could only stand on the solea holding candles and take part in processions holding icons, but they could not enter the Holy of Holies. When they reached 12, then they were encouraged to join the choir or the chanter's stand.

Incidentally, the Antiochians do allow baby girls to be churched and be brought inside the Altar.

A directive from Metropolitan Philip supposedly stopped allowing unbaptized babies to be brought inside the altar.

Was this recent? I saw a baby girl churched and brought inside the Altar this summer at an Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral.

Several years ago. Girls were never supposed to be churched IN the altar, according to the service books. But His Eminence stopped churching boys in the altar, since churched babies generally are not yet baptized. Although in some practices, baptisms are done privately at home before churching.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #159 on: November 14, 2011, 09:10:51 PM »
I don't know why this "first grade of the priesthood" garbage was inserted into the prayers - it's nothing but bunk.  There are several clear divisions in purpose and origin between the so-called "lower clergy" (LC) and the so-called "higher clergy" (and even within the "higher clergy" (HC)).  

- All the LC, and the deaconate too, are drawn from the ranks of the laity, while the priesthood is sourced from the Episcopacy, which comes from the Apostolic ministry.  Different origins.

- None of the LC can do anything remotely close to what the HC can do - distribute communion, lead petitions, celebrate or co-celebrate the sacraments, etc.

- None of the LC are ordained within the sanctuary, before the Holy Table.

- The priesthood exercises a degree of the Episcopal ministry, which cannot be said of the Deaconate (or the LC).  The priest can celebrate most of the sacraments (save Ordination, Consecration, and the making of Chrism) and do so "alone" (w/o other clergy).  The Episcopacy represents the fullness of the Church's ministry in the world (hence St. Ignatios' exhortations), the priests participate in that; the deacons (and LC) represent the meeting of the lay ministry and the clerical ministry, and the LC are laymen in authority.

None of this represents an argument for or against tonsuring women readers - I'm not a bishop, and therefore I don't care.  But I do hate to see perfectly good theology ruined with useless and false interjections.

Typically, what are the qualifications to be a Reader ( besides being Male)?

Literacy, to have all of one's necessary faculties (a tongue is important), and to display competency.


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« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:15:57 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #160 on: November 14, 2011, 09:16:05 PM »
I'm not even sure children should be serving at the altar, whatever their sex.

I wouldn't suffer the lack of deportment that sometimes goes on behind the iconostasis if I were in charge. But I suppose they're cute in their oraria and sticharia, so it's okay.

Having restless kids Alter serve makes it 2x as hard and  -1 as nice. Not worth the effort IMHO. Not to mention the fire hazard.

I'm the official kid wrangler behind the Alter. We have had two sent to serve precisely because they have behavior problems and the Parents hope this will help to contain them.

Wow, the Holy Place as a niche form of therapy. Nice.

Boys start out serving at the altar in order to learn, not just be cute and have something to do. It is so that, God willing, some may become priests. Traditionally, they "graduate" from altar service and are trained on the cliros. One does not need 20 altar boys carrying God knows what in grand procession, while at the same time there is but one chanter.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #161 on: November 14, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I've seen young boys who appeared more effeminate than these "girls" (including longer hair, earrings, etc.).  In reality, you can barely tell boys and girls apart physically until puberty - before then, our identification of them is mostly based on other, socially-determined cues; when those cues don't match our preconceptions (i.e. "only girls have long hair"), then we tend to misidentify.

In short: you can't be sure there are actually girls in that picture unless you've spoken to them or their parents.  Let's reduce the sensationalism a notch.
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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #162 on: November 14, 2011, 09:52:11 PM »
Is it true that on occasion Nun's have  served behind the Alter?

1. It's "altar."

2. Yes.  In fact, it happens all the time in women's Monasteries.  Theoretically, the only man/men who should be going to women's moansteries are the clergy to serve, so the only way "things can get done" in/around the altar is if women do it.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #163 on: November 14, 2011, 10:25:19 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I've seen young boys who appeared more effeminate than these "girls" (including longer hair, earrings, etc.).  In reality, you can barely tell boys and girls apart physically until puberty - before then, our identification of them is mostly based on other, socially-determined cues; when those cues don't match our preconceptions (i.e. "only girls have long hair"), then we tend to misidentify.

In short: you can't be sure there are actually girls in that picture unless you've spoken to them or their parents.  Let's reduce the sensationalism a notch.

With respect, Fr George, two of the young'uns in that picture are wearing colored headbands. I can't imagine any self-respecting parent allowing their son to wear such an accessory, especially in church.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #164 on: November 14, 2011, 10:32:37 PM »
With respect, Fr George, two of the young'uns in that picture are wearing colored headbands. I can't imagine any self-respecting parent allowing their son to wear such an accessory, especially in church.

Key phrase: "self-respecting."  ;)
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #165 on: November 14, 2011, 10:35:44 PM »
I'm not even sure children should be serving at the altar, whatever their sex.

I wouldn't suffer the lack of deportment that sometimes goes on behind the iconostasis if I were in charge. But I suppose they're cute in their oraria and sticharia, so it's okay.

Having restless kids Alter serve makes it 2x as hard and  -1 as nice. Not worth the effort IMHO. Not to mention the fire hazard.

I'm the official kid wrangler behind the Alter. We have had two sent to serve precisely because they have behavior problems and the Parents hope this will help to contain them.

Wow, the Holy Place as a niche form of therapy. Nice.

Unfortunately for us, it does tend to work. We are a no nonsense crowd when at the altar. They get the pecking order thing pretty fast.

I keep telling the Parents "You only need to beat them once"... they laugh but then I tell them I'm not kidding.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Tonsuring women as readers?
« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2011, 10:46:21 PM »
But tonsuring a reader is the first step in the priesthood.

And that's the problem. Such thinking is not consistent with the historical teaching of the Church, but developed later, through false understanding of the writings of Dionysius. The priesthood is just that...the priesthood. The deacons are deacons...they aren't priests. Neither are subdeacons, readers or anyone else. There aren't "levels" in the priesthood. Either you're a priest (i.e., you're ordained to consecrate the Holy Gifts) or not.

Let me find that Fr. Hopko podcast now. It's really quite good...

I agree with you. Besides, not all local church's tonsuring services include the "first step to priesthood" phrase.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #167 on: November 14, 2011, 10:55:28 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I've seen young boys who appeared more effeminate than these "girls" (including longer hair, earrings, etc.).  In reality, you can barely tell boys and girls apart physically until puberty - before then, our identification of them is mostly based on other, socially-determined cues; when those cues don't match our preconceptions (i.e. "only girls have long hair"), then we tend to misidentify.

In short: you can't be sure there are actually girls in that picture unless you've spoken to them or their parents.  Let's reduce the sensationalism a notch.

Even if some/most of them are girls, there is (a) no evidence whatsoever that they served in the altar and (b) there is the strong possibility that they served in the little entrance, in which case they probably lined up outside the altar (along with the scouts) and joined the procession outside the altar.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #168 on: November 14, 2011, 11:13:14 PM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I've seen young boys who appeared more effeminate than these "girls" (including longer hair, earrings, etc.).  In reality, you can barely tell boys and girls apart physically until puberty - before then, our identification of them is mostly based on other, socially-determined cues; when those cues don't match our preconceptions (i.e. "only girls have long hair"), then we tend to misidentify.

In short: you can't be sure there are actually girls in that picture unless you've spoken to them or their parents.  Let's reduce the sensationalism a notch.

Even if some/most of them are girls, there is (a) no evidence whatsoever that they served in the altar and (b) there is the strong possibility that they served in the little entrance, in which case they probably lined up outside the altar (along with the scouts) and joined the procession outside the altar.

This, at least, is a plausible explanation. Suggesting the kids in headbands could be boys, not girls, is not.
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Offline smithakd

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2011, 12:04:59 AM »
Even if some/most of them are girls, there is (a) no evidence whatsoever that they served in the altar and (b) there is the strong possibility that they served in the little entrance, in which case they probably lined up outside the altar (along with the scouts) and joined the procession outside the altar.
This, at least, is a plausible explanation. Suggesting the kids in headbands could be boys, not girls, is not.

When you think about it - two patriarchs, bishops, priests and deacons...there's prolly not much room in the altar left for servers!
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #170 on: November 15, 2011, 12:18:44 AM »
Are you sure these girls are not just part of a children's choir?  Does the text say they are altar girls?   No it does not.

I've seen young boys who appeared more effeminate than these "girls" (including longer hair, earrings, etc.).  In reality, you can barely tell boys and girls apart physically until puberty - before then, our identification of them is mostly based on other, socially-determined cues; when those cues don't match our preconceptions (i.e. "only girls have long hair"), then we tend to misidentify.

In short: you can't be sure there are actually girls in that picture unless you've spoken to them or their parents.  Let's reduce the sensationalism a notch.

Even if some/most of them are girls, there is (a) no evidence whatsoever that they served in the altar and (b) there is the strong possibility that they served in the little entrance, in which case they probably lined up outside the altar (along with the scouts) and joined the procession outside the altar.
This, at least, is a plausible explanation. Suggesting the kids in headbands could be boys, not girls, is not.

You've got to become a bit more consistent: they're in sticharion and orarion.  It doesn't really matter if they didn't step into the altar if they're wearing ecclesiastical garb reserved for the subdeacon & deacon.  (There are, iirc, canonical prohibitions against both cross-dressing and impersonating ecclesiastical rank that you don't hold.  Even the nuns who serve in the altar wear attire appropriate to their standing.)  At least my argument (which is far-fetched, admittedly, but not implausible considering I've seen long-haired, brightly-clothed, earring-clad, high-pitched young boys in our Orthodox Churches) negates both objections (vestment and altar service).

In either case, regardless of plausibility or angle of approach, we're both arguing to not rush to conclusions - and on that principle, at least, we can agree.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:23:50 AM by Fr. George »
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How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
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Selam

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2011, 12:39:41 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2011, 12:48:34 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2011, 01:14:30 AM »
Second Chance's post was a plausible explanation, only as an explanation, but it does not make dressing girls as acolytes or subdeacons right (not that I'm implying SC believes it to be right). All the more alarming that this travesty was allowed at a cathedral, at a patriarchal service.  >:( >:(

Presumably young boys also should not be vested in the garments of the subdeacon? This practice has always bothered me but I've never known whether my sense of being bothered is justified.

In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.

Indeed. Am I wrong to think this inappropriate?
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »
In my experience, Greek altarboys are vested with the orarion, but it is not crossed to form an X across their chests (which would be the case with subdeacons); those of Slavic tradition wear the stikharion only, leaving the orarion to be worn by subdeacons only.

Indeed. Am I wrong to think this inappropriate?

Anyone know why there is this difference in practice between the churches? At what point in history did it occur? And why?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2011, 04:23:08 AM »
Christmas 2010, Liturgy in St. George Orthodox Cathedral, Beirut:

http://www.mtv.com.lb/Religious_Specials/Metropolitan_Elias_Audi_Christmas_Mass?type=1&filter=0

It's quite long, more than 2 hours, but after the 106th minute you can see a few boys and a girl (or a long-haired effeminate boy) in the altar, holding baskets with antidoron. At the communion the same person is holding a basket with antidoron.

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2011, 04:36:28 AM »
But who can blame them when the example at home is communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

I think their relations with the Eastern Catholics are worse than the relations with the Oriental Orthodox. In 2004 Patriarch Ignatius IV consecrated a church in Damascus jointly with Patriarch Gregorius III. When Walid Gholmieh died this year Orthodox Metroplitans Elias of Beirut and Elias of Tyre and Sidon conducted his funeral service with the Melkite Metropolitan (now Emeritus) of Beirut Youssef Kallas. On Great Wednesday the Orthodox priest in Sidon served the Holy Unction with the Melkite Archbishop of Sidon Elie Haddad.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2011, 07:23:35 AM »

Really?

So, the girls go in to the Altar?

Is there an age cutoff for this or do they continue until they just move on to college or something?

There was talk that Bishop Nicholas here in the USA approved of Melkite Altar Girls.

However, I heard that these altar girls could only stand on the solea holding candles and take part in processions holding icons, but they could not enter the Holy of Holies. When they reached 12, then they were encouraged to join the choir or the chanter's stand.

Incidentally, the Antiochians do allow baby girls to be churched and be brought inside the Altar.

I don't see a problem with young girls serving in the altar until they get around that age, and then again after their child-bearing years have ended. Unless there is another reason historically that women have been barred from altar service?

However, the idea of baby girls being churched does bother me for some reason. What are the reasons for the traditional method (boys brought in, girls not) from the Church Fathers? I'm curious. And, FWIW, my parish breaks up the churching service. The prayers bringing in the mother with her child are done first, then the baptism, then the churching of the child. The boys are taken into the altar, the girls stop at the beautiful gate.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Female Sub-Deacons and Readers
« Reply #179 on: November 15, 2011, 09:49:30 AM »
Let's not forget that all Christians in the Middle East exist in an increasingly hostile environment. It may be that The Patriarchate of Antioch is emphasizing a greater role for females to make sure of continuity/survival. The Copts in Egypt seem to have the same impulse with the establishment of the Daughters of Mary nd the ordaining of many deaconesses.